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In the oil change discussion, I proposed keeping light oil in basic processing alongside petroleum as a potential tweak to the FFF (now 0.17.60) changes, and provided arguments in support (see these posts). I attempted to show that light oil would be a lesser departure from the FFF than heavy oil, but was sidetracked when V453000 showed more interest in heavy oil. Now that both have been rejected in favor of the FFF changes, however, I believe the light oil option warrants another look. I would like to represent my proposal here, with modifications to account for what I learned from V453000 during the FFF discussions, and I invite any devs to prod at or add premises to this proposal so that I may accurately refine it (hyuk hyuk) if possible. I trust that my record during past discussion will vouch for the claim that I will not bite.

First, some premises, either from my own arguments or what I was able to gather during discussion:

Theikkru wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:17 pm

• New players will still have to redo most if not all of the oil production chain once advanced processing hits, and there is little to no hinting or foreshadowing whatsoever to suggest that this will happen (i.e. planning ahead is not really an option). This greatly diminishes the logistical advantage of delaying the multiple outputs balancing problem that the revision is supposed to afford.
• The new player is still going to be hit with just about as large a wall of new recipes and production lines alongside the multiple outputs problem, only now it will involve more advanced recipes such as processing units and lubricant-related products rather than simpler ones such as plastic and sulfur.
• The association of oil with the multiple outputs problem is weakened (thematic problem).
• Players are still taught the "wrong" way of doing things initially, especially for solid fuel now that only the petroleum one will even be available at basic processing.
• Solid fuel got thrown under the bus. People will be even less motivated to touch it at all, now that it must use precious petroleum gas, and are far more likely to just rush rocket fuel.

V453000 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 28, 2019 2:57 pmPG + Light means the only reason you need AOP is Lubricant - that's a really weak non-high-tech motivator.

V453000 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 30, 2019 4:52 pm None of them really solved all the issues - complexity, tedium, pacing. Some of them were more interesting than others but always with some flaw. The biggest problem with the chosen solution is that it's likely the players will build straight pipes next to basic oil refining refineries, and get the "Can't mix fluids" error. We have some ideas how to fix this already, but nothing confirmed yet.

• Oil refining should not block up and jam the factory without a good solution available (and voiding resources does not qualify as "good").
• Proposals should attempt to minimize logistical complexity (and associated tedium) around the basic oil~chemical science zone of the tech tree.

Since I was not given a direct answer as to why the Petroleum+Light proposal failed, I can only infer from the general answer provided. Since the original proposal only involved one extra recipe over the 0.17.60 implementation, I assume that complexity and tedium were not the factors responsible, leaving pacing. I surmise from continuing discussion that, specifically regarding the petroleum+light proposal, the mechanic where solid fuel would push the player towards advanced oil processing by encouraging chemical science research amounts to a form of "rushing" advanced oil in order to solve the problem, and therefore suffers from poor pacing, insomuch as the player is unable to wallow between chemical science and advanced oil, should they so choose. Given this, and the considerations above, I present my modified proposal as follows:

• Restore an output of light oil (25~30) alongside petroleum gas for basic oil processing.
• Change the sulfur recipe to use solid fuel (~2) instead of petroleum gas.
• Increase the sulfur requirement of chemical science packs (to 3~4).
• Change rocket fuel to require heavy oil (5~10) instead of light oil.

This would incur a total cost of 1 additional recipe (solid fuel from light oil) re-introduced to the basic oil tech zone, and 1 additional recipe introduced to the chemical science production chain (solid fuel from oil products). Here, I'll also include some optional additional changes that may complement the above and mitigate the costs, should they prove prohibitive: (Note: these are not all mutually compatible)

• Change chemical science to require solid fuel instead of sulfur (at the increased cost).
• Change chemical science to require solid fuel instead of engines (and increase its cost instead of sulfur).
• Change chemical science to require plastic instead of advanced circuits.
• Increase the petroleum solid fuel recipe cost (to 25~30).
• Restore a small oil deposit near the starting area.

This proposal improves over both 0.17.60 and the original proposal in that:

• sulfur no longer competes with plastic for petroleum, and oil product use cases are better balanced in general.
• solid fuel gains a purpose as an intermediate product.
• sulfur helps balance oil usage through solid fuel.
• some measure of realism is restored, in that sulfur is harvested from processed oil products, rather than petroleum gas.
• rocket fuel remains as a high-tech recipe locked behind advanced oil.
• players are no longer rushed through chemical science to advanced oil as hastily, since both solid fuel and sulfur can balance oil product consumption; output jams can only occur under situations of high plastic usage and low sulfur/fuel usage, which are rare (and effectively limited to mass module 1s, mass stack inserters, mass substations, or mass electric furnaces, while also NOT doing anything that uses fuel or sulfur in quantity).

At the same time, this proposal retains all previous advantages, such as:

Theikkru wrote: ↑Fri Jul 26, 2019 4:17 pm

• introducing the multiple outputs problem alongside oil, allowing players to tackle it early on without too many distracting recipes involved.
• not involving a significant increase of logistical burden over petroleum only basic oil processing.
• hinting at the introduction of additional fluids with the geometry of the refinery.
• reducing the amount of renovation necessary to account for advanced processing.
• highlighting solid fuel when it is most helpful.
• providing two solid fuel recipes for comparison of efficiency.
• providing a straightforward method (chemical science pack solid fuel usage) of balancing oil product usage that works until advanced processing and cracking are available, but cannot supplant them.
• better balancing the total output of basic processing as compared to advanced processing or coal liquefaction, without making it too attractive by increasing the petroleum output.
• leaving more choice and initiative in the player's hands regarding pursuit of efficiency and planning ahead in order to save trouble down the road. (New players should be rewarded for planning ahead.)

I posit that this list of advantages outweighs the costs of implementation. If I have failed to account for some factor in my analysis, please advise.

Footnote: I present this as a differential change from 0.17.60, as I assume the devs have found sufficient justification for their decision to follow through with FFF#305. Any proposed changes must therefore prove their superiority against the current implementation, using relevant premises as I am attempting here, rather than refer to past versions as precedent.

Theikkru wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 am [*]Change the sulfur recipe to use solid fuel (~2) instead of petroleum gas.

I wanted to highlight that one, because i think it has not yet been proposed in discussion around FFF304 and 305. ( i might be wrong but i read carefully the whole thing).

It could function with the implementation you propose, but not only and may open new reflexions. I wonder if this is realistic, but as a gameplay solution, it makes a lot of sense to me.

It's rather prefer that you could make sulfur directly from whatever you want like SF, but with different efficiencies so that HO gives the most and PG the least. Sulfur requirements are pretty low, at least at the beginning, so it doesn't really matter if someone wants to make it from PG. And the difference could be made very small.

This is sort of what I'm working with in my WIP overhaul mod. PG > green coke ("dirty solid fuel") > refined coke ("solid fuel") + sulphur. You can burn green coke directly but it's extra-polluting. Overall there are actually fewer recipes than vanilla, even though there's a new item, because you don't need all the solid fuel recipe variants. Obviously the one in, one out BOP nerf is toast, because it's tedious af.

Haven't finished testing it out yet. Plan B is that oil refineries just chuck out masses of sulphur whenever they do any kind of cracking/refining and dealing with it all becomes the problem.

Serenity wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:23 am It's rather prefer that you could make sulfur directly from whatever you want like SF, but with different efficiencies so that HO gives the most and PG the least. Sulfur requirements are pretty low, at least at the beginning, so it doesn't really matter if someone wants to make it from PG. And the difference could be made very small.

The reason I didn't go with this option is it introduces several more recipes to the mix, going against the goal of simplification in that tech zone. I think the solid fuel efficiencies are close enough that what I proposed will balance things pretty well, and exact costs can always be tweaked later to adjust.

Theikkru wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 am output jams can only occur under situations of high plastic usage and low sulfur/fuel usage, which are rare (and effectively limited to mass module 1s, mass stack inserters, mass substations, or mass electric furnaces, while also NOT doing anything that uses fuel or sulfur in quantity).

I read somewhere, that sulfur could be used as ingredient for concrete

jodokus31 wrote: ↑Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:34 am

Theikkru wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:43 am output jams can only occur under situations of high plastic usage and low sulfur/fuel usage, which are rare (and effectively limited to mass module 1s, mass stack inserters, mass substations, or mass electric furnaces, while also NOT doing anything that uses fuel or sulfur in quantity).

I read somewhere, that sulfur could be used as ingredient for concrete

Sulphur makes more sense to me than iron ore in concrete.

That would push concrete behind oil processing, and there are a lot of mods where concrete is an ingredient for building large machines like oil refineries. Circular loop.

"Refined" concrete, maybe.

The iron ore in regular concrete should so obviously be an iron stick that it's barely worth mentioning.

See another Concrete rework here :
viewtopic.php?p=446003#p446003
(Though I guess it could be spun off in its own mod ?)

I am not sure that asking devs to change anything now will have any effect - we tried to fight with new changes for half a month with no result. Maybe let's try to present an example mod for them to judge the alternative solution?

Here is my proposition: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=74062

Another aspect of this proposal I find noteworthy: that having researched advanced oil processing alone does not mandate its immediate implementation.
In the unlikely event that a player does elect one of the dedicated mass production options (e.g. mass module 1s) that may result in an oil product imbalance, chemical science would still temporarily alleviate said imbalance and guide the player to advanced oil research. However, the player is in no way obligated to address advanced oil processing itself at this point. Because cracking is also made available through advanced oil research, the construction of a light oil cracking line would present itself as a straightforward and thorough solution to the immediate imbalance, leaving the player to tackle the remainder of advanced oil at his or her leisure.

Got off my bum and made a mod out of this proposal. I cobbled it together by using other oil mods as templates (and not by learning the syntax), so fingers crossed that I've worked out all the kinks.

Now that 1.0 is safely out of the way, I'd like to bump this for reconsideration. After trying another playthrough in 1.0, I still think it feels better balanced overall to have basic oil start at 2 outputs, rather than just petroleum. My mod has survived through 1.0 unscathed, so you don't have to take all the theorycrafting above at face value; you can try it for yourself.
As of the 1.1.0 version, the mod does the following:

• Adds 30 light oil to basic oil processing output (and makes the light oil solid fuel recipe available then)
• Changes the sulfur recipe to use 2 solid fuel instead of petroleum
• Changes the chemical science recipe requirements for sulfur and advanced circuits to 4 and 2, respectively
• Changes rocket fuel to use 10 heavy oil instead of light oil

I still agree with this. This oil processing change was a mistake because it doesn't really address the underlying problem as even I mentioned there. Sooner, rather than later, players still have to deal with balancing oil levels. And on the other hand it's rather annoying now because you're going to need oil before you get advanced oil processing so you know that when you do your setup, it's still not gonna be final setup and you'll have to still go through the extra steps, even more so now than before.

If it was such a concern that players stop playing after they hit the problem with balancing oil, there's plenty of workarounds. We already have mods for stuff like overflow valve that can simplify the process significantly without any circuit logic. These could have been in the base game.

What I kind of hoped for a long time now was that we'd have a way to actually create energy directly through oil products for some sort of petrochem generator and just use something like that as a void. Have these generators be really powerful, consume massive amounts of product at all times when enabled and pretty much guarantee that the power is for the most part wasted unless you got ridiculous amount of accumulators and plenty of consumption.

This could solve a couple problems. It could create a "dumb void" that could be beneficial if it was actually used properly (with control logic), provide an intermediary step in power production between steam and nuclear (that doesn't rely on large landmass, but also pollutes a ton). If players could actually just dump off their extra light & heavy oil into that, they don't have to worry about the imbalance, but the tradeoff is wasting potentially precious product. And simultaneously it would also offer something for more advanced players if they could plop down 1 of these to get 100MW power production and then use logic to tame down how much they feed it.

On the off-chance anyone's still interested, I still stand by my opinions above, and have updated the mod to accommodate Factorio's 1.1 version series.

I’m still of the opinion that they could’ve left all 3, but then moved some of the demand off from petrol by making sulfur come from heavy or, similar to solid fuel, from all 3 with heavy being the most efficient.

The mod has been updated to work with Factorio's 2.0 version series.
My experience in 2.0 is limited, of course, but I don't see significant changes to early oil, and I still think that this proposal is the way to go.
In practice, balancing the two oil outputs is as simple as using a priority splitter (or a combinator attached to an inserter) to control the distribution of solid fuel (to steam boilers, if nothing else). Even in the worst case scenario of rushing electric furnaces and/or efficiency module 1s, it's difficult to block on excess light oil, and doing just about anything else (such as blue science, solar, or even just waiting around a bit) alleviates the blockage naturally.