Factorio Forums

i initially commented in the bug forum about the change to spidertrons having their slow stickers "finished" by klonan, and was recommended that i put the comment in balancing, so here goes, also the original posting area that was locked

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=92501

i personally dont feel like the slow stickers should compound to make the player or spidertron crawl so extremely to where the original speed is reduced by more than 50%. if i have 3 exos in my spider it can crawl so slow i must immediately leave combat and repair my spider, in most cases if i leave a very large nest i can safely leave combat and repair my spider at about half health, where before the change - that was not posted in any change log, where in example 1.0 - my spider could easily run around a large nest and i could destroy it with minimal or no damage at all. this really makes me want to have a mod that completely removes these slow stickers, but that said i think the effect is far to harsh.

the last comment in the bug forum before the topic was locked said it most accurately, the slow acid stickers make the area effectively off limits until it fades away, is extremely hard to see on the ground, and has massive dot damage. when i step on it without shields or exos i can be easily killed before i can walk off it. this due to the compounding slow and dot while on the acid effect. these patches can hide under corpses and others and even if i killed the entire nest before going over there, i can die due to the long lasting nature of the acid patches.

recommend adjusting the dot damage (less) and the slow stacking percentage to no more than half the original speed, by original speed i mean if i have exos and can run at 100kph, it doesn't stack to slow me by more than 50kph.

Basically, you request acid puddles to be rebalanced so that they are less effective against vehicles (slow effect and damage) ?

I'm in.

Yeah. The slow effect coupled with the DoT is absolutely brutal. The player can (sort of) deal with it because a player with MkII armour and the correct mods is a hepped up jackrabbit with a pocket nuke launcher, but with things like the car, tank, and spidertron they're all much more ponderous and awkward to manouver.

Capping the maximum slow at some sane number would be nice as well, but vehicles particularly having reduced slow effectiveness and/or more acid resistance would be very much appreciated. The tank especially, since it doesn't have an equipment grid and is slow as all get-out to start with.

Does it even make sense that a vehicule like spidertron that has only those pointy legs in contact with the ground to be as affected as a car or a tank ?

At least give spiders a speed bonus on concrete

Do people actually have Spidertrons destroyed because of the slowness, though?

If you have your Spidertron packed full of explosive rockets, and especially if you're also riding inside wearing a Power Armor MK2 packed full of lasers, and especially if you also have the Spidertron itself packed full of lasers, isn't it powerful enough that the slowness doesn't matter?

The slowdown is pretty significant, but I've never found it to be so bad that I'm in danger of losing the Spidertron completely.

Kyralessa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:16 pm Do people actually have Spidertrons destroyed because of the slowness, though?

... yes....

If you have your Spidertron packed full of explosive rockets, and especially if you're also riding inside wearing a Power Armor MK2 packed full of lasers, and especially if you also have the Spidertron itself packed full of lasers, isn't it powerful enough that the slowness doesn't matter?

it can run out of power.

The slowdown is pretty significant, but I've never found it to be so bad that I'm in danger of losing the Spidertron completely.

well, maybe leave discussion to those who have

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:39 pm well, maybe leave discussion to those who have

If it's changed in the game, it affects everyone, not only those who would find the change helpful, but also those who would find the change unnecessary given the Spidertron is already extremely powerful. It makes the game easier for everyone, including those who think it doesn't need to be easier.

Kyralessa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:21 pm

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:39 pm well, maybe leave discussion to those who have

If it's changed in the game, it affects everyone, not only those who would find the change helpful, but also those who would find the change unnecessary given the Spidertron is already extremely powerful. It makes the game easier for everyone, including those who think it doesn't need to be easier.

maybe you could have at least read philip's report instead of coming along to act like he's not experiencing a problem.

I play with philip - he's not one of those who "wants the game to be easier".

this is an issue of balance.

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 pm maybe you could have at least read philip's report instead of coming along to act like he's not experiencing a problem.

I did. I don't agree that it's a problem.

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 pm I play with philip - he's not one of those who "wants the game to be easier".

Then I don't get why he wants this change.

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:32 pm this is an issue of balance.

Yes, and it would throw the balance off to make this easier by nerfing the slowdown effect of the acid. I hope they won't do it.

Kyralessa wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 6:51 pm Yes, and it would throw the balance off to make this easier by nerfing the slowdown effect of the acid. I hope they won't do it.

because it would increase the resilience of all vehicles, as the rest of the thread indicates. i hope they do it. the tank is useless.

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 pm the tank is useless.

Really?

AmericanPatriot wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 11:54 pm

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 7:43 pm the tank is useless.

Really?

No, but once Spidertron comes along, the tank isn't that useful anymore by comparison. But the tank is useful until then, which can be a good long while.

ptx0 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:39 pm it can run out of power.

I use two personal batteries mk2. It helped a lot during combat.
One fusion reactor provides 750kW and 3 exosceletons already need 600kW.
The Spidertron needs 3 exoskeletons because, at least for me, the spidertron is very slow.
Fortunatly the batteries dont have a power cap, they can discharge really fast.

If I remember correctly the exosceletons have the lowest power priority and you end up slow in the middle of a biter base.

a work around to help keep me from dieing requires a complete strategy change, instead of having only my one spider and using personal lasers in my mk2 armor to clear biter nests, my strategy has had to evolve, i now have at least 10 spiders following my spider, this increases cost of destroying nests using spiders, but this has become my effective go to.

my mk2 pa that i wear for combat consists of 2 fusion cores, 2 mk2 batteries, 1 mk2 roboport, and 15 personal lasers.
my spider consists of 1 fusion reactor, 3 exos, 2 mk2 batteries (that die relatively fast so i have to stop remove 2 exos and add a second fusion reactor to replenish the batteries), and 4 mk2 shields.
the follow spiders are configured as, 1 fusion reactor, 3 exos, 2 mk2 batteries, and 4 personal lasers.
- as most biters target me, my follow spiders do not have/need shields

explosive rockets help, but when using rockets, the personal lasers are not used at all, so i find them less necessary and opt for repair packs instead, turning off my personal roboport in combat and leaving combat when i need to heal/recharge.

-------

when i was previously running around with but one spider, and even when i have my follow group if they are not close, the acid pools can pile up and cause a constant slow at the slowest speed, the reason this happens is because the spitters continue to pile up and because they no longer have a collision mask, they pile up into such a mass that they can obliterate me as i no longer can tell if there is 10 or 50 in that pile. combine that with the inability to see the acid in many cases, causes a ton of frustration.

i would like to see the acid graphic be placed on top of all other graphics, it may look a bit odd perhaps someone can put out a mod that will move the sprite layer from the bottom to the top of the placement order, so it is always on top of all other layers to make it as visible as it can be, perhaps even color it a deeper color to make it's presence more apparent.

but i still think the acid pools are way op and need some tweaking, the stacking effect of not stacking to more than half the original speed still feels the most sensible adjustment. another possibility would be to revert the collision on biters and require them to keep their distance from each other so they can't pile up in huge numbers.

I agree that acid pools are kind of OP, especially their stacking slow and since vehicles don't have the characters dodging ability i would very much welcome some sort of change. As far as i'm concerned the change could be to have spitters/worms use the character speed averaged over the last half-second instead of current speed. That would mean zig-zagging would no longer allow the player to "free" dodge the spit, as the average speed over the last half-second should allow a more accurate prediction of where the player will move to.

As far as actual changes go, i would prefer a rebalance (no idea how) instead of a flat nerf, because spitters/worms are currently the only thing that can really kill you (at any stage of the game) and i kind of need such a "real" threat to take the biters seriously.

mudcrabempire wrote: ↑Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:06 pm That would mean zig-zagging would no longer allow the player to "free" dodge the spit, as the average speed over the last half-second should allow a more accurate prediction of where the player will move to.

Running in a tight circle would still allow you to dodge all acid.

If you run in a very small circle, your average velocity is 0, so the spit will be aimed at where you are (and hit). If you run in a larger circle, the aim will be off the mark, but still closer than without averaging your velocity (probably?, i didn't go through all scenarios). At least it should make biter aim more robust against sudden movement changes, which would make dodging more of a challenge. Probably.

I'm playing deathworld with enemies all the way on max settings and my spidertron just gets instantly overrun the moment I drive even near one of the supernests. This stacking slow debuff just made my spidertrons worhtless in clearing out those riddiculously oversized nests.

I guess the slow stacking makes sense on normal settings since the bugs are not even a threat there, but deathworld makes spidertron or any other vehicle useless. Behemoth spitters/worms hit you once and its gg cuz then you get zerged by the other 50 comming up right behind the first one.

While you are probably not going to remove the stacking debuff to make normal settings worthwhile can we atleast have a change to how shields work in this case? Howabout this... As long as the shields on your spidertron (not player) hold you are immune to the slow or atleast the slow is much weaker. This would actually allow us deathworld players to do hit and run tactic on those supernests withouth getting instaclapped the moment you get hit by one acid spit.

Krakenson wrote: ↑Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:35 pm a change to how shields work in this case? Howabout this... As long as the shields on your spidertron (not player) hold you are immune to the slow

this makes the most sense