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Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:34 am
by evandy
The other major change to power is the electrode-based recipies in the electrolyzers. Cleaning electrodes now gives you back additional mineralized water on top of what you get from the slag. I have seen peoples bases run totally off the mineralized water (heading to algae II/charcoal) while using the slag coming from electrolysis for other things. Yes, I know that you need to get to steel to unlock it, but it is a major increase in power output, and worth beelining.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:45 pm
by kenlon
Well, damn, I'd been completely ignoring Dirt Water Electrolysis II because, if I remember correctly, it used to not return all the electrodes when you cleaned them, and it made it not cost-effective.
I just went and played with Helmod a bit more - holy shit, this is bananas. Using Electrolysis II to produce slag for a 75 Mineral Sludge/second setup (my standard building block) spits out enough mineralized water to produce 19 megawatts of power over and above it's operating cost! Plus, crystal slurry processing just got less annoying since I can feed it with a much smaller number of plants than before! A mere three instead of FOURTEEN for a production block of 100 Mineral Sludge/s from geodes! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:51 pm
by Jemsterr
Yes. Yes it does. I realised the same thing right at the end of my seablock run.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:29 pm
by evandy
kenlon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 1:45 pm
I just went and played with Helmod a bit more - holy shit, this is
bananas. Using Electrolysis II to produce slag for a 75 Mineral Sludge/second setup (my standard building block) spits out enough mineralized water to produce 19 megawatts of power over and above it's operating cost! Plus, crystal slurry processing just got less annoying since I can feed it with a much smaller number of plants than before! A mere three instead of FOURTEEN for a production block of 100 Mineral Sludge/s from geodes! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING.
It's so good that over at Rain's discord we have been running the numbers. The general consensus is that Electrolyzers are now competitive with geodes for power, even very early. This (to me) is a good thing - you need to make interesting decisions, instead of having only one real path to go.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:57 pm
by Blokus
Coal has leaked its way back into Sea Block after not existing for quite some time. Specifically, you can now burn wood into coal, and can turn that into charcoal and sulfuric waste water, providing an unusually easy source of net-sulfur by Sea Block standards. Is this intended?
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:51 am
by kenlon
evandy wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 3:29 pm
It's so good that over at Rain's discord we have been running the numbers. The general consensus is that Electrolyzers are now competitive with geodes for power, even very early. This (to me) is a good thing - you need to make interesting decisions, instead of having only one real path to go.
The fact that a totally achievable early-midgame power plant setup, requiring only green science, can produce 9.8 MW of net power off of every single Electrolyzer II you put into it is going to make managing my power needs utterly trivial for a long damn time. Even an incredibly early setup that needs only 15 green science for the research of the actual Electrolysis II process, using all level 1 production buildings, still puts out approximately 6MW per Electrolyzer.
Power off of geodes? Who needs it?
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:43 am
by jodokus31
Geodes are still good to produce some power efficient mineral sludge and crystal seedling.
Green algae needs a lot of landfill and entities. Farming power is IMO still better and not too far off (f.e. binafran).
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 12:22 pm
by mrvn
Wow, ok, lots of changes in the algae / electrolizer recipes since I last started. Looks indeed like a major shift for power production. Maybe I will start a new game with 1.0 soon and try them out.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:28 pm
by kenlon
jodokus31 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 10:43 am
Geodes are still good to produce some power efficient mineral sludge and crystal seedling.
Green algae needs a lot of landfill and entities. Farming power is IMO still better and not too far off (f.e. binafran).
Geodes for sludge is still a good idea, but there's no reason to have them be your goto for power production, meaning that setups where you only crush some of the geodes and dissolve the rest in acid directly for higher output is starting to look pretty damn appealing. Which is nice, because I could never justify it before.
I've never bothered with the farming stuff, it always felt too fiddly. May have to look at it again.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:16 pm
by jodokus31
kenlon wrote: ↑Mon Aug 24, 2020 2:28 pm
Geodes for sludge is still a good idea, but there's no reason to have them be your goto for power production, meaning that setups where you only crush some of the geodes and dissolve the rest in acid directly for higher output is starting to look pretty damn appealing. Which is nice, because I could never justify it before.
Yes, If you feed the mineralized water for the recipe "crystal slurry to mineral sludge" from the outside, it might yield a lot more. Also, sulfur might get negative, which can be good or bad...
I currently followed another approach: Crush all geodes and excess crushed stone goes also into mineral sludge. This produces about 63 sludge per sec. instead of 56.25, based on a "5 geode washing plant mk2" - setup
In 0.17, I used this excess stone -> mineralized water for algae2, which was a good deal back then.
But now, you have more than enough mineralized water from the electrode electrolyzers, which even gets dumped into basic crystallization for some extra saphirite/stiratite.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:57 pm
by kenlon
For anyone else who's just starting to experiment with Dirt Water Electrolysis II and doesn't want to run purified water all over the place:
You can supply the pure water needed for washing 4 plants worth of electrodes with either one hydro plant doing purification, or one electrolyzer doing Electrolysis I and chemical plants to turn your hydrogen and oxygen into pure water. You'll consume all the hydrogen produced if you do the latter, and you won't even have to bother with flaring it or storing it.
Personally, I can't see ever bothering with hydro plants doing purification - the pure electrolyzer route just works better.
EDIT: For situations where you are just making mineralized water - obviously, if you need saline, or need more purified water for other industrial uses, then it varies.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:34 am
by jodokus31
I think hydrogen is kind of precious to produce plastic via hydrogen + co2. purified water is cheap and easy
Also, I don't need to produce extra mineralized water as the main product:
I currently have 4 elecs doing slag for stone and bricks, 8 for landfill and 24 for mineral sludge. They produce a lot of mineralized water (at least enough for power plants) and hydrogen as byproducts
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2020 2:29 pm
by KiwiHawk
Blokus wrote: ↑Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:57 pm
Coal has leaked its way back into Sea Block after not existing for quite some time. Specifically, you can now burn wood into coal, and can turn that into charcoal and sulfuric waste water, providing an unusually easy source of net-sulfur by Sea Block standards. Is this intended?
I'm pretty sure that it's not intended. I've just created a bug report for it.
I checked in SeaBlock's data-final-fixes.lua . I can see both coal and crushed coal listed under items to remove.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:23 am
by Zavian
I haven't played Seablock since about 0.18.34, but back then Klonan's transport drone mod required coal for building roads, so coal might still be required for people wanting to combine Seablock with other mods.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:40 am
by CorBlimey
hello
Just kicking off my 1.0 experience by playing Seablock instead of vanilla..
Is it right now that the most basic belt is already fairly deep into red research? Requiring a bunch of direct insertion to get there
Just wondering if I messed something up in the mod pack now (was last playing a different suite of mods so maybe did something wrong)
ok I had a config issue. Clean install of Seablock and related mods fixed it.. here we go...
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:57 pm
by kenlon
jodokus31 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:34 am
I think hydrogen is kind of precious to produce plastic via hydrogen + co2. purified water is cheap and easy
The methanol from CO2+H2 route never seemed appealing to me, because of the catalyst requirement. Going the algae-to-cellulose-to-methanol route has been my default - what's the advantage of the other method?
Also, I don't need to produce extra mineralized water as the main product:
I currently have 4 elecs doing slag for stone and bricks, 8 for landfill and 24 for mineral sludge. They produce a lot of mineralized water (at least enough for power plants) and hydrogen as byproducts
It's not a case of producing extra. If I'm specifically setting up a block for power production, for example, then making it internally self-sufficient means that no matter what happens with other production blocks in the base, power continues to be produced. Minimizing the interconnectedness of your factory adds fault tolerance, and minimizes how much the Law of Unintended Consequences can bite you when you start tearing up old parts to replace them.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:20 pm
by jodokus31
kenlon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:57 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:34 am
I think hydrogen is kind of precious to produce plastic via hydrogen + co2. purified water is cheap and easy
The methanol from CO2+H2 route never seemed appealing to me, because of the catalyst requirement. Going the algae-to-cellulose-to-methanol route has been my default - what's the advantage of the other method?
According to my calculations, you need 4 times the amount of algae farms for cellulose compared to the catalyst recipe. Also a lot less other machines
And you have to create resin, too, which requires green/red catalysts anyway. I know, there's a recipe for resin from wood, which i just ignore, because it is IMO not intended to be available (Apart from that, i looks like a lot of arboretums are needed for that.)
kenlon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:57 pm
Also, I don't need to produce extra mineralized water as the main product:
I currently have 4 elecs doing slag for stone and bricks, 8 for landfill and 24 for mineral sludge. They produce a lot of mineralized water (at least enough for power plants) and hydrogen as byproducts
It's not a case of producing extra. If I'm specifically setting up a block for power production, for example, then making it internally self-sufficient means that no matter what happens with other production blocks in the base, power continues to be produced. Minimizing the interconnectedness of your factory adds fault tolerance, and minimizes how much the Law of Unintended Consequences can bite you when you start tearing up old parts to replace them.
Well, sure. That is theoretically a good and valid approach. The thing is, that there is so much excess mineralized water, that it would be a shame to not use it, f.e. dump it in ore crystallization.
If stone, landfill or mineral sludge stalls, which is unlikely, it gets of course dangerous. In the long run, i could add a safety plant for mineralized water, although it won't be so crucial once farming power is up.
Regarding farming power. I recommend binafran, which is pretty easy and fast to setup. It also has no long build up time. Only some crops are needed, which are dropped by picking up desert gardens. It just needs a bit of bio research, also some red/green techs.
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:18 pm
by minno
Is the pack still going to include Angel's Industries?
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am
by mrvn
jodokus31 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:20 pm
kenlon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:57 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:34 am
I think hydrogen is kind of precious to produce plastic via hydrogen + co2. purified water is cheap and easy
The methanol from CO2+H2 route never seemed appealing to me, because of the catalyst requirement. Going the algae-to-cellulose-to-methanol route has been my default - what's the advantage of the other method?
According to my calculations, you need 4 times the amount of algae farms for cellulose compared to the catalyst recipe. Also a lot less other machines
And you have to create resin, too, which requires green/red catalysts anyway. I know, there's a recipe for resin from wood, which i just ignore, because it is IMO not intended to be available (Apart from that, i looks like a lot of arboretums are needed for that.)
kenlon wrote: ↑Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:57 pm
Also, I don't need to produce extra mineralized water as the main product:
I currently have 4 elecs doing slag for stone and bricks, 8 for landfill and 24 for mineral sludge. They produce a lot of mineralized water (at least enough for power plants) and hydrogen as byproducts
It's not a case of producing extra. If I'm specifically setting up a block for power production, for example, then making it internally self-sufficient means that no matter what happens with other production blocks in the base, power continues to be produced. Minimizing the interconnectedness of your factory adds fault tolerance, and minimizes how much the Law of Unintended Consequences can bite you when you start tearing up old parts to replace them.
Well, sure. That is theoretically a good and valid approach. The thing is, that there is so much excess mineralized water, that it would be a shame to not use it, f.e. dump it in ore crystallization.
If stone, landfill or mineral sludge stalls, which is unlikely, it gets of course dangerous. In the long run, i could add a safety plant for mineralized water, although it won't be so crucial once farming power is up.
Regarding farming power. I recommend binafran, which is pretty easy and fast to setup. It also has no long build up time. Only some crops are needed, which are dropped by picking up desert gardens. It just needs a bit of bio research, also some red/green techs.
I looked at binafarms and it needs a lot more research than algae and I don't seem to see a way to make it without it producing extra output that has to be burned (which needs research as well). What recipe chain do you use?
Re: [1.0] Sea Block Pack 0.4.10
Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:37 am
by jodokus31
mrvn wrote: ↑Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:51 am
I looked at binafarms and it needs a lot more research than algae and I don't seem to see a way to make it without it producing extra output that has to be burned (which needs research as well). What recipe chain do you use?
It definitely needs more research than green algae f.e fluid burners, but it also much more powerful. Those 10 farms produce ~58 MW with normal bobs fluid burning boilers/steam engines 2. I need to burn off glycerol with flare stack, which could be used for explosives.