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Perfect Chest/train loader

https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=193&t=93830

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Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:40 am
by Binoculars
Hello factorian friends,

The text below will be translated from French to English on Google Translate.

I created a perfect chest/train loader with just one combiner. Each chest will load exactly the same number of items. It can be configured according to the desired number of boxes. You just have to modify the -6 in the decider combinator and connect the cables.
1.jpg
1.jpg (668.68 KiB) Viewed 6381 times

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:21 pm
by steinio
Well you show us the Madzuri loader:
https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comme ... w_does_it/

The balancer is obsolete in this setup as only inserters with low chest content are active.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:42 pm
by Binoculars
steinio wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:21 pm
 The balancer is obsolete in this setup as only inserters with low chest content are active.
The balancer is only there to illustrate my creation.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:56 am
by blazespinnaker
Cool, thanks, will check this out for sure. Balancing load to trains is pain. What sort of impact does this have on loading throughput? (if any)

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:21 am
by 5thHorseman
blazespinnaker wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:56 am
 Cool, thanks, will check this out for sure. Balancing load to trains is pain. What sort of impact does this have on loading throughput? (if any)
At a quick test, it seems to be about 7% slower than a simple setup. Here's what I used, no guarantee it's the best setup for either case. Unbalanced intentionally, though it is lane balanced. Took the screen shot as soon as the green one (right) hit 1k.

I expect though that that 7% will be more than made up for by trains not waiting as only one box is slowly emptied into one train car.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:19 am
by Binoculars
Indeed, this is slower than a simple configuration.

I am currently working on a reverse balanced unloading, because in this creation, if during unloading a safe is not emptied in the same way as the others, it slows down the flow considerably.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:14 pm
by blazespinnaker
Were you able to do the offload, Binoculars?

Be curious if anyone has made anything better than this. I'm working on trying to do something better, but so far no luck.

You've got some great stuff. Clean, simple.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:40 pm
by Binoculars
blazespinnaker wrote: ↑
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:14 pm
 Were you able to do the offload, Binoculars?

Be curious if anyone has made anything better than this. I'm working on trying to do something better, but so far no luck.

You've got some great stuff. Clean, simple.
Glad to know my designs are appreciated, thank you very much.

I'd love to see you or someone improve on this.

I tried several possible combinations without achieving the same result as when loading. I think inserters should be told that they only activate when they can enter an exact number of objects. Something that I do not know how to do at the moment. It might even improve my previous creation.

I think sometimes factorio is unnecessarily complex. It would be interesting to add this additional condition to the inserters.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 6:47 am
by blazespinnaker
Yeah, I'm thinking of moving away from the 'flow' control approach I use with trains/production and thinking more in terms of 'shipments' and how combinators can facilitate that, especially the arithmetic combinator. It seems more precise and less error prone.

Ie, in order to get a shipment of green circuits of a certain size in a certain period of time, I need need a certain set of shipments of coil and plates to the input lines. Belts / Inserters would become fairly dumb entities in this scenario, and controlling signals / trains via combinators will be the way.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:08 am
by Trific
I'm trying to figure out what you guys are trying to do with the unloading and failing. How does just using the loader design to unload not work?

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm
by NeoVortex
My balanced train loader uses a different approach. Each wagon has an output lane balancer, 4 curved belts (for more belt > inserter > chest speed), with belt speed reduced to 50% using a clock signal (otherwise 2 of the chests will get more items). The chests will not be exactly balanced as OP's design, but it will still be balanced.

The inserters that load the wagons from the chests are controlled by circuit, and they always pick the same amount of items at the same time, as their stack size changes according to the remaining slots of the wagons, and they only work if there's a minimum amount of items stored in the chests. I don'k like 6 inserters setup because 40*5 is not divisible by 6, so the method above wouldn't work. Moreover, 4 inserter setup allows space for underground belts and can still load 1 blue belt per wagon.

Example:
Loader Station.png
Loader Station.png (6.53 MiB) Viewed 5922 times

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:37 pm
by Binoculars
NeoVortex wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm
 Example:
Loader Station.png
Very beautiful creation, very inspiring. Thank you for sharing.

It is true that the distance between each chest is hardly important. Too many combinator however.

Did you create an unload on the same principle?

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:53 pm
by NeoVortex
Binoculars wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:37 pm
NeoVortex wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm
 Example:
Loader Station.png
Very beautiful creation, very inspiring. Thank you for sharing.

It is true that the distance between each chest is hardly important. Too many combinator however.

Did you create an unload on the same principle?
Thanks. The unloader was designed before the loader, but they share similar features. It unloads up to 8 blue belts and balances wagons, chests, belts and lanes.

Example:
Unloader Station.png
Unloader Station.png (3.31 MiB) Viewed 5898 times

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2021 11:00 pm
by Binoculars
[/quote]

Thanks. The unloader was designed before the loader, but they share similar features. It unloads up to 8 blue belts and balances wagons, chests, belts and lanes.

Example:

Unloader Station.png
[/quote]

Very good work.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:56 am
by blazespinnaker
Trific wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 25, 2021 7:08 am
 I'm trying to figure out what you guys are trying to do with the unloading and failing. How does just using the loader design to unload not work?
Hmm, do you have an example of using it to unload you can share?

I've used this one here - viewtopic.php?f=18&t=94454

But I find it doesn't work so well when you have impaired production.

This works surprisingly well for offloading if you're consuming the belts and is currently my goto approach, at least until I get things to train scale. I'm thinking there might be a way to tweak this further, especially stack sizes.
Screenshot 2021-01-28 200056.png
Screenshot 2021-01-28 200056.png (44.4 KiB) Viewed 5762 times



Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:38 am
by Trific
blazespinnaker wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 29, 2021 2:56 am
 Hmm, do you have an example of using it to unload you can share?
This is my high volume "no gaps allowed" unloader:
Screen Shot 2021-01-29 at 3.17.05 AM.png
Screen Shot 2021-01-29 at 3.17.05 AM.png (360.49 KiB) Viewed 5731 times
But I find it doesn't work so well when you have impaired production.
Do you mean that in the sense that it doesn't pack the belt when it backs up? The unloader in my screenshot is not unloading anything right now because production is backed up because I am working on the upstream. It isn't unloading because the full belt is the only one above the average. For my purposes, the fact that it doesn't pack the belt when production is backed up is irrelevant. My constraints are that it produces a compressed belt and that it unloads the chests evenly. The compressed belt is necessary because I have one build that pulls 29.87 items/sec off a red belt (30 items/sec max). Unloading evenly makes sure the trains unload at maximum speed.
This works surprisingly well for offloading if you're consuming the belts and is currently my goto approach, at least until I get things to train scale. I'm thinking there might be a way to tweak this further, especially stack sizes.
So I guess what I'm not seeing is what additional conditions you need the loader to meet.

(In the bp for my unloader, there is an extra combinator that can be deleted if you change the Each->A combinator to use the actual item that goes in the chests.)

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:38 am
by blazespinnaker
Yeah, testing off/onloaders in different scenarios I find is useful. For example, if the belt is not being consumed fast enough, or one side is being consumed and not the other, or if the chests are emptying out.

I'm wondering also if it's possible to create off/on loaders without combinators. Just a combination of wires, stack size overrides. Very interested in seeing how simple some of these designs can be made.

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:47 am
by NotRexButCaesar
NeoVortex wrote: ↑
Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:13 pm
 [...]
I see you have some seemingly pointless squiggles inside your balancers, as well as some unconnected underground belts betwixt the wagons. Is there a reason for this? Are you just trying to fill space?

Re: Perfect Chest/train loader

Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:53 am
by NeoVortex

I see you have some seemingly pointless squiggles inside your balances, as well as some unconnected underground belts betwixt the wagons. Is there a reason for this? Are you just trying to fill space?
The belts between inserters and 1 to 1 balancer are needed for buffering items. The unconected undergrounds are for aesthetic purposes and have no other function.
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