Factorio Forums

malecord wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:19 pm

Was thinking, among the planet types you evaluated, have you ever considered a tidal locked one? Like a planet where you have to connect the sunny desert side with the night frozen one through the lush monster filled stripe in between? It could become a the "train planet".

Hmm... They've mentioned that train interrupts are critical on one planet... Is it it?

I would DEFINITELY purchase a set of science pack ornaments(and cogs), plastic or glass. Either for hanging or just as awesome paper weight desk toys. Beakers with colored epoxy in them, not too complicated to manufacture. Things from video games brought into the real world are Just. So. Cool!

Hey folks, glad to see a bunch of technical details!

At the same time, I'm very worried about creating a DSL, no matter if with an external parser or an in-house parser. It's easy to get a DSL working, but all attempts that I've seen so far (even inside big companies) typically end up in a incomprehensible mess once you try to write a formal grammar/semantics for the language. Best case scenario, they end up being quirks of the language like {}+{} being NaN in JavaScript or being UB in C++. More typical scenario, lots of parsing/semantics hard-to-catch bugs creep in immediately like in https://github.com/fusionlanguage/fut/issues/26 or https://github.com/leaningtech/cheerp-meta/issues/89 or https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues/52790 or some that I cannot share due to NDA. Think "bugs in binary search" or "forgot to process spaces in the beginning/end", but x10 harder to notice unless you specifically look at it. Mostly happens because parsers/naive compiler tend to think about AST and syntax instead of semantics. Moreover, fixing those may require breaking backward compatibility.

Especially once you start adding optimizations. E.g. optimizing 0*x into 0 is incorrect if x has side effects. Does not happen yet I believe, but if you allow mods to provide functions in these expressions... Or x-x not always being zero even without side effects ().

If you care about the language being consistent, I believe it may be a good idea to do some fuzz testing at the very least: generate a random expression (not an easy feat on itself), add/remove spaces and random variable names, evaluate it with Python/Lua and compare with your engine. I've seen my own toy compiler working fine with random 50-chars expressions, but failing with 500-chars expressions that could later be simplified into 10-chars regression tests.

Would be happy to take a look at relevant pieces of code or, if you have time, have a chat (e.g. in Discord) about different algorithms, standard compiler gotchas, and how to avoid some corner cases.

yeputons wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 26, 2023 1:10 pm

Hey folks, glad to see a bunch of technical details!

Especially once you start adding optimizations. E.g. optimizing 0*x into 0 is incorrect if x has side effects. Does not happen yet I believe, but if you allow mods to provide functions in these expressions... Or x-x not always being zero even without side effects (

infinities, NaNs

).

Actually, since these noise functions are explicitly declared as math functions, any x/x, x minus x, 0*x, or x/1 (and so on) optimizations are legal. Yes, in math you are not allowed to multiply infinity-like f(x) by zero-like g(x) without the limit expansion, but you are allowed to multiply f(x) -> ∞ by a TRUE zero (constant value), resulting in a zero (constant value). This is the case because math functions are not allowed to have side effects

yeputons wrote: ↑

Tue Dec 26, 2023 1:10 pm

I'm very worried about creating a DSL...

Noise expressions DSL has been in Factorio since 2017, but it's true that this rework and addition of functions could have overlooked some issues. Even though we tried to think of valid and invalid scenarios and wrote unit tests, the real test will come when modders start (ab)using it.

Regarding user-defined functions, they can't have side effects and must return a noise expression, so you could think of a function as a "parameterized noise expression". They are external - you can't define them in an expression. Variable assignments are also not allowed.

Next, map generation doesn't need the result to be precise, so we can get away with x*0 => x even if `x` is NaN. NaN is generally not expected but we don't test for it - in the worst case, terrain will be a bit different. There are a few more compromises in the engine to deal with constant folding (x^0 => 1) because we favor performance.

If you want to chat about noise expressions or anything related, I am available on Discord.

Hares wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 22, 2023 6:15 pm

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 22, 2023 4:54 pm

But that shot with the Christmas tree makes me want to request something else: holiday themed sprites. Either as separate mods, or as things built into the game that automatically enable on and for the duration of the holiday, then turn back off after. And some random joke stuff on April 1st.

There're actually two mods which change science packs and artillery shells into Christmas gifts.

There is already a holiday-themed mod-pack: Christmas Candy Factory
What is missing are snow covered entities - they would be a great addition to this mod.

This is quite the deep dive (for me, at least), enjoyed reading it.

Reminds me of dwarf fortress map generator

The hope I had when I created the terrain noise system was that someone, someday, would take the idea and extend and polish it, which it seems you have. It's a slight bummer to lose compatibility with the old Lua noise expression definitions[1] (a goal of that design was to an AST-based common-denominator format for this type of thing), but it was admittedly a heavy data structure, especially when things got complicated. I figured the lack of conditionals would be the main limiting factor of noise expression complexity (since it means every part of the tree needs to be evaluated for each cell of the surface) so didn't worry too much about the 'compile-time' cost (and I had a hard time convincing Rseding that it was 'compile-time', since it happened at run-time from the perspective of the C++ compiler )

As for 'why was it built this way', well, the v1.0 noise generation system was itself a rebuild of Kuba's autoplace system, which used several octaves of Factorio Basis Noise in a fixed pipeline sort of way. There were several knobs you could turn, but you certainly couldn't, for example, take atan2(y,x) and feed that as a parameter to something else. That version was itself an improvement on the original implementation that used a slightly different basis noise function, maybe Perlin noise. And Perlin noise is simply the default tool that everyone grabs for when they need a coherent noise function for infinite terrain generation, if they aren't aware of Simplex noise, which I think is slightly better (it scales to higher dimensions more efficiently due to being based on tetrahedrons instead of cubes and has reduced discontinuities in its first or second derivative, or something).

Of course you don't have to base your terrain generation entirely on coherent noise. You could use recursive subdivision or a wave function collapse algorithm or something like Stable Diffusion or have a room full of people who draw new areas of the world just before players walk into them. But coherent noise has the advantage of being conceptually very simple. All you need to calculate the contents of a cell of the map is (x, y, map-specific constants). And it works well enough that neither Tomas, nor Kuba, nor I, nor Earendel or Genhis felt the need to throw the whole thing out and do something completely different. Though it is of course fun to think about!

[1] I think we (maybe I) can build a compatibility layer in Lua relatively easily. So, modders: don't freak out about having to rebuild your noise expressions for v2.0 just yet.

Lets put this mod from Earendel here. https://mods.factorio.com/mod/cogmas

Happy new year