featherwinglove wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:38 pm
Zavian wrote: ↑Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:43 pm
Whilst I think the new science packs sound like a nice improvement for vanilla from a pacing and game balance/design perspective, I've always felt that late game science and rocket parts were too simple. Currently they don't feel satisfying. (Comment obviously based on 0.15/0.16, but I don't see the new recipes in 0.17 changing that much, although the addition of rails and flying robot frames will help). I'd prefer more complex recipe chains for those late game parts. (Of course this is something mods can change, so no big deal).
Now this is just confusing: Your complaint is about late-game stuff, which is things like processing circuits, rocket parts, and power armor. But the word "rails" appears. The running gag is of course this huge pile of rails to run one of
hundreds of experiments in a lab. This is not late game, but
mid game; the argument I see from the devs fairly consistently is that the item appears in a science pack approximately the same time you're going to be needing a lot of them anyway. It doesn't add up.
Ok. I'll elaborate on why I find the current late game recipes unsatisfying to automate. (Note that in this section I'm only talking about 0.16 recipes. i'll explain my thoughts on the 0.17 changes below).
Ok the late game recipes I'm talking about are processing units, prod science, hi tech science, and the various rocket parts. In most single player games I never bother to automate Power Armour MK2, and I'll only automate things like nuclear reactors, if I'm actually planning on using nuclear power on the map.
First some notes. I'm mainly talking from the viewpoint of an experienced player, starting a new single player base, and aiming for around 0.75 flasks per second, and a rocket in less than 8 hours. Sometimes I'll also mention my expectations of what a first time player might be thinking, and any new challenged he might face.
Prod science.
Only two ingredients. So actually simpler than blue science. What about those ingredients, anything interesting or new there? Well electric engines need lube, that is new, but also trivial to automate. (For a new player the largest challenge with lube is likely to be making sure he doesn't crack or turn into solid fuel too much heavy oil). The actual electric engine recipe is pretty simple as well. (Biggest issue for new players is likely to be realising that AM2s have a fluid input).
What about the electric furnace? 25 ingredients per cycle. But on the whole, that is still less ingredients (per assembler) per second than the mining drill.
So production science nothing really new or complex. Might need to scale up red circuit and steel production and add a few assemblers to engines.
Processing units.
Needs sulphuric acid, which is somewhat interesting to setup, also needs lots of green circuits, and that probably means adding more green circuit production. Can use direct insertion, ratio is good without modules, but ratios will be off if you later add modules. On the whole the decision over making more green circuits elsewhere, or using direct insertion is the most interesting aspect about processing units. (New players will probably miss the direct insertion possibility, and might not realise just how many green circuits this section of his factory needs).
Hi-tech Science.
First recipe that needs 4 ingredients. Processing units, batteries, speed modules and lots of copper wire. Processing modules I've already covered. Batteries is easy. Speed modules are easy. Assuming you are ok with using direct insertion, the copper wire is easy. On the whole the best (most complex) of the recipes I've covered so far.
Space Science.
The rocket silo introduces new mechanics and that in itself makes it interesting. Also requires concrete, which is something I might not have automated yet.
The satellite needs 6 ingredients, many of I won't have automated yet. On the whole it would be interesting, except if I'm only playing for the win in less than 8 hours, I only need one, so I'll just add a few assemblers somewhere for solar panels and accumulators, and hand craft the radars and the satellite itself. (If I'm playing long term, then this is one place where I use logistics robots for science production. For a long term game game I already want solar panels, accumulators and radars in provider chests, (to feed the train that will build the solar fields). Not worth the hassle of duplicating those setups, nor running belts across half the base, to make a few satellites per hour, so I tend to just use logistic robots to automate the satellite. In choosing to use bots to simplify satellite production I lose most of the interesting choices here).
Rocket fuel.
Boring recipe. Far too simple for this stage of the game. (Two steps, each with only a single ingredient. One step in 0.17 since we are already making solid fuel). At least make it more interesting by making Rocket fuel from say coal (and/or solid fuel) + petrol + light oil. (Only an idea off the top of my head).
Rocket control units
Speed modules + processing units. Again only 2 ingredients. Both of which are already automated for science. Only one step. Again too simple for this stage of the game. Even in 0.17, where I won't have speed modules automated, it is exactly the same recipe as prod modules. Just add some more assemblers to the end of the belts. (Or for an 8 hour run, just change the recipe of the existing assemblers). At least add some more/different ingredients, eg processing units + speed module 2s or even 3 + a couple of green + red circuits and a few copper wires. (If that seems too expensive, then you don't need to keep the 10:10:10 ratio for rocket parts. 1 RCU controlling 10 fuel and 5 structure would be fine).
Low density structure.
3 ingredients, which makes this the best of the current rocket parts. But all stuff we are already making in quantity. Only one step. On the whole not interesting. I would like to suggest crushing stone + copper ore for rare earth ores, then alloying them with steel to make say titanium (or some other hi-strength light weight alloy). Then making LDS from that titanium plus glass reinforced plastic. (Make glass from bricks in a furnace, then make glass reinforced plastic from glass + plastic. Again only an idea off the top of my head. Could also go with carbon reinforced plastic with carbon made from coal in a chem plant).
Rocket parts
Uses all three of the above. Given that is 3 new ingredients, that is sort of interesting. Would prefer that the ingredients themselves weren't so boring.
Also why have a 1:1:1 ratio, and all 3 ingredients having exactly the same craft time? Yes, once you consider the satellite, this becomes 22:21:20, but that is so close to 1:1:1 that it only matters if you are actually able to keep all those machines constantly fed. Mixing up the ratios by varying either the rocket part recipe, and/or the craft time of the individual ingredients might be an improvement.
0.17 changes.
Production Science.
Now 3 ingredients. Would prefer 4 at this stage of the game, but 3 is better than 2. The third ingredient (rails) is not something I will already be making (at least not in sufficient quantities, so I can't just grab a belt from the bus). It is also a two step process, and that is more interesting than a one step process. Also rails seem like a candidate for direct insertion, which tends to be more interesting to design and build than just grabbing things from the bus. Takes more ingredients and has more stuff that needs to be automated than 0.16, so I expect this to be more interesting to setup.
Utility Science
Only 3 ingredients, but requires flying robot frames, which takes 4. And flying robot frames require automation of electric engines, which need lube, and batteries. Again more things that need to be automated, and again some of them have multiple stages, and so I expect I will find this more interesting to setup than 0.16.