[0.16.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[HerpicusMcDerpington]

an outright complaint about the cost isn't that useful, reduce the cost? Yeah... maybe...

Dont get me wrong, im am VERY grateful for people stepping up, creating such huge changes to a game
I could come up with a suggestion for this, like at least give back the 2x outcome, so the ratio is 3.33 times the old reciepe, not 6.66.
But, figuring out some ratios as a suggestion is not for everyone.

which brings me directly to this:

for a starter base, you're supposed to try using the new basic grey belts.

I tried. Grey belt speed is nothing i would ever use. Think about the amount of people who add Angel´s to their game, combined with yours.
Have you tried putting the outcome of only 4 crushers onto a grey belt?

I get that only people heavily bored with vanilla go the way to massivly increase difficulty by playing your mods, but the change is quite drastic in scaling up at the start.
How long since you last started a new map which you planned to play for a while?

Like i said, i even like the idea of adding new stuff to belt reciepes, but i havent even looked at red yet.
Steel is fine, but it also might be too much.
If its not, if its scaling well with usual base setups for building materials, you may have overdone yellow quite a bit.

[bobingabout]

an outright complaint about the cost isn't that useful, reduce the cost? Yeah... maybe...

Dont get me wront, im am VERY grateful for people stepping up, creating such huge changes to a game
I could come up with a suggestion for this, like at least give back the 2x outcome, so the ratio is 3.33 times the old reciepe, not 6.66.
But figuring out some ratios as a suggestion is not for everyone.

which brings me directly to this:

for a starter base, you're supposed to try using the new basic grey belts.

I tried. Grey belt speed is nothing i would ever use. Think about the amount of people who add Angel´s to their game, combined with yours.
Have you tried putting the outcome of only 4 crushers onto a grey belt?

I get that only people heavily bored with vanilla go the way to massivly increase difficulty by playing your mods, but the change is quite drastic in scaling up at the start.
How long since you lasted started a new map which you planned to play for a while?

Like i said, i even like the idea of adding new stuff to belt reciepes, but i havent even looked at red yet.
Steel is fine, but it also might be too much.
If its not, if its scaling well with usual base setups for building materials, you may have overdone yellow quite a bit.

I heard that red and blue scale rather well. I've heard comments like "Oh my god, finally something to spend my Bronze and Aluminium on!" but I've also heard comments like "The increased aluminium usage kills my electrolysis ratios"

If the grey belt was faster, say, 75% of current yellow instead of 50%, would that be better? plus other tweaks elsewhere.

[HerpicusMcDerpington]

I heard that red and blue scale rather well. I've heard comments like "Oh my god, finally something to spend my Bronze and Aluminium on!" but I've also heard comments like "The increased aluminium usage kills my electrolysis ratios"

If the grey belt was faster, say, 75% of current yellow instead of 50%, would that be better? plus other tweaks elsewhere.

Tbh, i have never been past blue science and red belts, so unfortunatly i have nothing to say about that beyond red belts.
I just started to use your mods, at the very beginning of a big project.

If i had the say on this, i would remove the grey belts completely
Think of it that way:
I´d say even starter bases from people who previously only played vanilla with some qol stuff are quite advanced, compared to newbie bases, in terms of smelting&assembly setups.
And 13.33speed is the absolute minmum for me.

You could maybe split the mod into 2. Belts and pipes.
Cos as i previously said, I think it was the removal of logistics (for people who dont like the belt changes at all) that forced me to disable an Angels mod cos it missed steel pipes.

[Rylant]

I think that Red and Blue belts scale better. I do agree that the increased cost of Yellow belts seems a bit much. I did just start over again and it made the start significantly tougher and longer than normal. Possibly because I started in an area with few trees, which made pollution worse. It took me several hours to get my normal temporary starter base up, mostly because I had to really ramp up burner drill production to keep up with iron to keep up with the new yellow belt recipe, plus I was dealing with constant biter attacks. Eventually, it was manageable, but it was hairy there for a bit.

I would be fine with you lowering the cost of yellows by a bit. That being said, I do think it's manageable the way it is and is not a deal breaker.

Rylant

[HerpicusMcDerpington]

If the grey belt was faster, say, 75% of current yellow instead of 50%, would that be better? plus other tweaks elsewhere.

And 13.33speed is the absolute minmum for me.

on a 2nd thought, 10i/s would be okISH, but ONLY if you add splitters & undies. Who wouldn´t use them, even at the very beginning?

But then, who would use yellow at all, other than to shove them into redbelt production?
With grey being 75% as fast, but cost only 18% of a yellow?

Maybe add grey to yellow reciepe, instead of just putting what you deconstruct/replace into green science.
Like 1 grey +1 gear for a yellow, 2 gears would make it almost as bad as it is now.
You need to think about red needing yellow too, not just add the steel, but also the 6 times increase in pure iron.

Oh and:
People reporting back from their red/blueish base probably wont even notice the difference in yellow. I mean, who uses blue+ and cant support "some" more iron.
Its the start that bothers me.

I would go for a 2x reciepe for now, acting as a quick fix until you/forum put more thought into it.
Because as it is, its not playable for me, its too frustrating
You can tell by the time i spend on the forums instead of ingame.

[Rylant]

Bob... Please stop changing your inserters. I have had a broken base like 3 times this week because of it!

Thanks,
Rylant

[bobingabout]

Bob... Please stop changing your inserters. I have had a broken base like 3 times this week because of it!

Thanks,
Rylant

don't worry, they're staying as they are now.
Change to belts incoming though!

well... I'm going to release a plates mod that will cause a requirement of cobalt steel gears and bearings, but that effects inserters and belts.


Plates 0.16.2:
Adjusted fuel value of hydrogen (Give opinion of if I should just outright remove it)
Added new tag emissions_multiplier to all gas venting recipes.
Added new tag emissions_multiplier to all fuel value fluids
Added new tag fuel_emissions_multiplier to fuel items
Added cobalt steel gear wheels and bearings


Revamp 0.16.2:
Added heat-shield-tile to productivity allow list.
Added fuel emissions multiplier to Hydrazine, rocket fuel and nuclear fuel.


Logistics 0.16.13:
Changed the cost of yellow belts down to 2 plates 2 gears.
Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron.


Power 0.16.3:
Added new tag emissions_multiplier to all gas venting recipes.
Added new tag emissions_multiplier to all fuel value fluids
Added new tag fuel_emissions_multiplier to fuel items
Fix steam turbine construction times

[MadClown01]

Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron

Oooooh can't say I saw that coming

[Light]

Plates 0.16.2:
Added cobalt steel gear wheels and bearings

Logistics 0.16.13:
Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron.

[RocketManChronicles]

If the grey belt was faster, say, 75% of current yellow instead of 50%, would that be better? plus other tweaks elsewhere.

And 13.33speed is the absolute minmum for me.

on a 2nd thought, 10i/s would be okISH, but ONLY if you add splitters & undies. Who wouldn´t use them, even at the very beginning?

But then, who would use yellow at all, other than to shove them into redbelt production?
With grey being 75% as fast, but cost only 18% of a yellow?

Maybe add grey to yellow reciepe, instead of just putting what you deconstruct/replace into green science.
Like 1 grey +1 gear for a yellow, 2 gears would make it almost as bad as it is now.
You need to think about red needing yellow too, not just add the steel, but also the 6 times increase in pure iron.

Oh and:
People reporting back from their red/blueish base probably wont even notice the difference in yellow. I mean, who uses blue+ and cant support "some" more iron.
Its the start that bothers me.

I would go for a 2x reciepe for now, acting as a quick fix until you/forum put more thought into it.
Because as it is, its not playable for me, its too frustrating
You can tell by the time i spend on the forums instead of ingame.

In my new game, I just entered the Red -> Blue stage and the cost of the yellow prior to reaching those was tougher, but manageable. You need to scale up for yellow a bit like you had to for Red in vanilla (old Bob's). Think of the "New Yellow" a cross between the "Old Yellow" and the "Old Red."

[Termak]

Any more sweeping changes on the materials or belts / inserters on the horizon or can i start fixing my inserter/belt factory?
I am supposed to start new multiplayer game this week , so i will see how the early changes effect all of it.

Thank you for all the work on modpack , i just couldnt enjoy Factorio without you and Angel

[bobingabout]

Any more sweeping changes on the materials or belts / inserters on the horizon or can i start fixing my inserter/belt factory?

No, I think I'm done for now.

[Helex288]

Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron.

Uhm... A Lab needs a transport belt, which requires Tin plate, which requires the Mechanical refining research which requires a Lab ..

I think The recipe needs to be altered or start the game with bobmonium and rubyte crushing already available.

[bobingabout]

Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron.

Uhm... A Lab needs a transport belt, which requires Tin plate, which requires the Mechanical refining research which requires a Lab ..

I think The recipe needs to be altered or start the game with bobmonium and rubyte crushing already available.

Bobonium isn't a bob ore, it's... angels?

I think the fix is to make the lab cost a basic belt instead of yellow.

Lets not forget that in the real world, People were using copper, tin, and bronze long before they started using iron, because it's that easy to smelt. Iron requires a hotter furnace
Bob's mods reflects that by making tin one of those "it's in the starting area, mine it, stuff it in a furnace, and get a plate" materials for a reason. it is not walled behind any science. Bronze is, but tin itself isn't.

Sometimes I forget that other mods do things differently when it comes to these starting materials.

The main reason why tin is used instead of iron is "Because it's lowtech and cheap". And by lowtech, I mean notech, research level zero, you start with it.


Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?

[supercirno]

Let me begin by saying what a wild ride this has been. I believe things would have been smoother if these kinds of highly disruptive changes are explained within the in-game changelog, so as to reduce panic and confusion. As a developer I know this is not a small request, but documentation is incredibly important.

That said, I really enjoy the recent logistic update and have opted in to the inserter rework. I feel like the grey belts should be slightly faster, say around 600/min, with yellow and red belts/inserters increased to 1200/min and 1800/min for smoother progression. It would also better fit the general theme of this mod pack with higher investment and larger payout. Also, on angels or seablock it can take a while to get tin, so grey splitters and undergrounds would help, though without them it may be just more pain for masochists. A hand-craft recipe to upgrade grey to yellow (for cheaper) would be nice as well.

Thank you bobingabout for doing all of this hard work to make the game more enjoyable!

[Helex288]

Yellow belt and related entities take tin plate instead of iron.

Uhm... A Lab needs a transport belt, which requires Tin plate, which requires the Mechanical refining research which requires a Lab ..

I think The recipe needs to be altered or start the game with bobmonium and rubyte crushing already available.

Bobonium isn't a bob ore, it's... angels?

I think the fix is to make the lab cost a basic belt instead of yellow.

Lets not forget that in the real world, People were using copper, tin, and bronze long before they started using iron, because it's that easy to smelt. Iron requires a hotter furnace
Bob's mods reflects that by making tin one of those "it's in the starting area, mine it, stuff it in a furnace, and get a plate" materials for a reason. it is not walled behind any science. Bronze is, but tin itself isn't.

Sometimes I forget that other mods do things differently when it comes to these starting materials.

The main reason why tin is used instead of iron is "Because it's lowtech and cheap". And by lowtech, I mean notech, research level zero, you start with it.


Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?

Basic belt would be the quick solution.

Don't get me wrong, i really like bob's mods as it makes it more of a challenge as it is more realistic (i can't remember the last time i played without your mods).

And Bobmonium is indeed Angels mods.

[igorhgf]

Hey, i'm new here venturing with bob + angel and i noticed that tank (vehicle) have 3 tiers, with increasing grid space each tier, but the Car only have one tier (with very small grid size). I looked up in bob's subforum and found nothing about cars. Is it supposed to only have 1 tier? Is something that sliped though? Or is just something you didn't have time/attention to implement yet? Thanks for the mods, they're great.

[bobingabout]

Hey, i'm new here venturing with bob + angel and i noticed that tank (vehicle) have 3 tiers, with increasing grid space each tier, but the Car only have one tier (with very small grid size). I looked up in bob's subforum and found nothing about cars. Is it supposed to only have 1 tier? Is something that sliped though? Or is just something you didn't have time/attention to implement yet? Thanks for the mods, they're great.

I was at one point going to add a truck, a goods van if you will, that had increased storage space. I just haven't yet.

I feel like the grey belts should be slightly faster, say around 600/min, with yellow and red belts/inserters increased to 1200/min and 1800/min for smoother progression.

I have been discussing belt speed with a few people, and the general response was... don't change belt speeds.

your numbers though are even further removed from he game code than what I'm used to. 600/m translates to 10/s. 10/s would be defined internally as 0.75/32. the current 6.66 is defined simply as 1/64. (or 0.5/32)

Yup, internally, belt speed is measured as TILES per tick. and since a tile is 32x32 pixels (at default zoom level) you get 1/32 for 1 pixel per tick.

Lets math it.
10 = 3/4/32, lets start by cancelling the divides into each other, so you get 3/128, and you can't remove the 3 because it gives you a recurring number. So we're done.
So now we can calculate any speed as items per second simply by doing *3/128. you want 600/min? that's 10 per second, so 10*3/128.

Anyway, you say change it so that you have 10, 20 and 30 items per second, then 40 for express. What about Green and purple? they're currently 53.33 and 66.66.


The main reason why I wouldn't want to change belt speeds though... one red belt feeding a red splitter feeding 2 yellow belts, perfect split. And it works the same way for yellow into basic. and even the same way from Green into Red.
I really don't want to play with belt speeds too much because of this pre-existing ballance, there were a huge debate about this on bots vs belts, some people saying to ballance belt speeds to 10, 20 and 40, others quoting different numbers, keep this ratio ballance, make it so blue feeds 2 reds... I really wanted to stay out of the belt speed arguments.

[MadClown01]

Actually, better idea. Instead of tin plate, why don't I make it cost something, like, rubber?
Wait, you can't do rubber because you require an assembling machine to make resin, which means you need science pack 1.

How about wood then?

Rubber is a good idea imho.

I suggest implementing a basic low-yield recipe for smelting wood into resin.

[Termak]

Rubber would be better than tin tbh, i know tin is ancient metal but using it to make belts just feels weird.
Also only use for rubber in your mod is iirc insulated wire which is used just for circuit wires and power poles ?
Changing lab recipe to grey belt would also be fitting change.