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I think someone already said this, but I'd like to second it. I want bigger versions so they're easier to see.

Maybe 1x2 (for text only?) like Nixie tubes. or 2x2.

gGeorg wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 12:08 pm I dont think that "fix inserters" is somewhat positive. I see it natural tha slow inserter, burner, has issues on fast belt. It is not bug it is intended feature. Fixining it means, cut out some challenge, it is a bit like, "fixing fluids" by cut out flow. It is easyer, but .... .By removing the balls you dont get a fighting bull.

Fully agree, again something that was simplified and although it wasn't really broken. But I'm looking forward to the expansion. There are many other things we have to solve.

Unfortunately, this is one of the changes that I would have to rate as negative.

It is my third most negative change!

These are my most negative changes:
1. Quality
2. Fluid
3. Inserter

My favourite changes:
1. New Enemies
2. New Planets
3. More control options

So after thinking about whether it would be possible to extract a signal value to pass to displays with current combinators and the display panel as described, I got a bit nerdsniped, and built two quick and dirty setups to do so, each with their own flaws.



Each uses a combination of Mod and Divide values in Arithmetic combinators to pass only one digit of the signal, to the three upper stage combinators. All Three of the Input Sanitizer, Signal Interpreter, and Null Signal Interpreter input on the same red wire, and output on the green wire, synchronizing their signals to the tick.

I'm pretty sure Combinators 2.0 consolidates both signal interpreters, and possibly all three upper stage combinators if some way can be found to compare each signal to the input without passing the input in the process.

The clock is just a simple test input and can be replaced by any signal desired.

The math part is where it's different between the two versions.

The version on the right has the advantage that every calculation happens on the same tick, but it's flaw is that each of the combinators needs a different instructions. It modulos the input by 10^N, where N= the decimal place, and then divides by 10^N-1.

Meanwhile, the version on the left has the exact same instructions for every row of combinators save one, but adds a one frame of input lag for each decimal place. The first combinator is just an Each * 1 delay that can be removed entirely and exists entirely for the sake of order but, beyond that, the bottom row divides by 10 then passes it to the next digit, and then the arithmetic combinators above each mod 10. It'll be a little funny when carrying ones, I suspect. On the flipside, one could easily expand the display to any size needed just by copy-pasting the left two rows.

I'm very much a novice to this side of combinators, so I'm not sure if it's possible to have a version that avoids both flaws.

As an added bonus, I'm pretty sure this could be setup to read text encoding as well, just by changing the base for divide and modulo to 27 or higher for the letters and spaces, and swapping out the constants in the combinator.

Also sharing the blueprint, because I had too much fun. (I'm not sure if there's a way to make a collapsible spoiler box in this forum software, unfortunately.)
With all that said, and in fact because of all that said, I'm going to go against the grain and say I really like this limit.

I would honestly prefer displays be slightly inconvenient precisely because it encourages dipping into combinator logic like this. For a long time I'd wanted there to be ladder of common places to get into increasingly complex uses of signal logic, starting at reading a signal to disable an output a la oil cracking, and the question and challenge of "Can I display the signal value?" serves the role of a higher step magnificently. It's complex enough to get into combinator the math and logic, but still feels like a relatively simple introduction to that space, and as a bonus is entirely optional, if highly convenient.

Notice how on the bottom right image the burner inserter still makes one failed pickup attempt? That means it's still just a matter of time before enough of those happen in a row for it to run out of energy and require manual intervention. Whether this counts as a bug is debatable, but the problem is not actually fixed.

Actual fix would require a burner to never reach for an item it can't reach in time or some other inserter is already reaching for, and preferably to never reach for a non-fuel item if low on energy. Whether that's worth worrying about is another matter, since burners are very much an early-game-only thing. Still, any mod with expanded burner phase would benefit.

Love the displays!

I think their size is too small though. It took a while to find the display next to the crushers, with the belts and blinking combinators distracting. And since most of the icons aren't very bright, they could be hard to see / identify. I suggest increasing their size to 2x2!

The displays that only show text look visually like they aren't running, IMO they should show some low-res text on their screen (like the signs in Super Mario 64).

Lastly, you didn't show how the color signals are displayed, but it would be great to have the entire screen being colored instead of just showing the signal icon. This could be extended to the letter / number signals as well, displaying them as written on the screen, like the +/<> etc. are shown on combinators

ombus wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:13 pm Yeah at first i thought the same thing .. some sort of fabric comb ... but being bactorio and the resulting item looks like a battery...
i can see it as some sort of copper rod with cables in a coil.. like some magnet

So after more time thinking, the magnet explanation grew on my mind, maybe some insulated cable would look blue like this and you are correct.

I thought of another crazy explanation, because often time the reveals in the FFF seem crazy to me, so here it is : It's still a fabric, but one that you need to thread from some electric spider's web that haunt Fulgora, which caused the ruin of the previous populations. Some kind of technological bug that replicated and attacks all things holding electricity, usually making big nets of insulated web, after evolving on a planet with lots of thunder storm. Such characteristic making them double edge sword for the engineer as before any research they are just an ennemy, but after unlocking some technology in Fulgora, it becomes possible to tame them, and while feeding them electricity them can produce some of that web. It would be used in battery, but maybe also in other things since the web is very resistant, not only allowing electricty to pass through.

I really hope there is an option to rebind the key that toggles whether or not the display panel text is shown.

Am I missing something or is the real story in this FFF the ghost signal icon?

Always though the inserter lag was a feature, but I'm also glad it's gone now

So now we have: Tags, Pings, Pins and Displays to put markers on the map. Did playtesting the feature already reveal if displays remove the need for anyone of the first three?

NaurEnForven wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 8:07 pm I really hope there is an option to rebind the key that toggles whether or not the display panel text is shown.

The text either shows only on mouseover (if the "always on" option is unchecked in the display's GUI panel), or all the time when Alt-mode is turned on (if the "always on" option is checked in the display's GUI panel).
That's my understanding of :

By default the message is only visible when the Display panel is hovered by the player.
Sometimes though we want the information to be visible at all times, so we added an option to set the text to always show (in alt-mode).

So no key binding there, apart from the Alt key to turn Alt-mode on/off.

ombus wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:33 pm New items too

cable ?
new battery ?

My guess is a solenoid input and relay output?

Karamel wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 7:05 pm Notice how on the bottom right image the burner inserter still makes one failed pickup attempt? That means it's still just a matter of time before enough of those happen in a row for it to run out of energy and require manual intervention. Whether this counts as a bug is debatable, but the problem is not actually fixed.

I believe that miss is due to the late notification of the burner for the need of that item. There are a couple of coal pieces ignored before, indicating that the burner is full.

Actual fix would require a burner to never reach for an item it can't reach in time or some other inserter is already reaching for, and preferably to never reach for a non-fuel item if low on energy. Whether that's worth worrying about is another matter, since burners are very much an early-game-only thing. Still, any mod with expanded burner phase would benefit.

I fully agree

Can we have the display plates as early as Red-Tier Research, or even for free, please? (and literally cost only a brick)

Display panels with circuit integration is fine to be put with the other circuits. But I would severely miss the capability of engraving a simple and static slab of stone for the purpose of planning my base right from the start. Also NGL... the tilted headstones concept art already looks 100% ingame-worthy.

cant wait to integrate this into my train system

I like the idea of the display panel of the great deal, but really dislike this particular design: aside from raw visual appeal - or lack thereof - there is the worse issue that it is quite discomforting, as it evokes a cyclopean alien staring at you.

dragon_gawain wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 5:25 pm 1. It would be nice if the on map/alt display text had some sort of symbol to let me (and others) know that there was more text that can be seen upon hovering over/opening the display panel.

First thing that came to mind when reading this. This is a nice QoL addition.

Excellent! Keep the great work as always

Regarding "Chart" vs "Map", even Factorio calls it "Map": So the newly introduced description "Show in chart" seems inconsistent.

Regarding inserter speed:
Previously, when the factory is not 100% powered, inserters get slower and were no longer able to pick up moving items from a slow (yellow) belt. Were there tests, how the new behavior affects underpowered factories? I would hope, that in these situations inserters can't pick up moving items from belts, because they are too slow.

morsk wrote: Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:59 pm I'm glad there aren't ugly scanlines or lense flares on the Display Panel.

Am I correct that Remote View removes the ugly scanline "vignette" currently on the map view? (I hacked the shader to remove it years ago, so actually I have no idea if it still exists. But I assume it isn't gone yet.) This would be a trend of removing things that are ugly for no reason. I appreciate it.

Different strokes for different folks. The nice thing about the radar scan lines is that I can tell at a glance whether I'm in radar view or satellite view when playing a mod such as Space Exploration. Otherwise I can't figure out why I'm clicking on things and they don't interact (because you can do things in satellite view that you can't do in radar view).