I think assembling machines need some balance changes

[shopt]

I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.

Also any mention of AM balance that doesn't consider module slots is incomplete. IMO, AM1s are the best (for non-fluid recipes) until you consider module slots or you are space constrained. Once you do that, you realise that an AM3 with even 3 eff1s and a spd1 is going to match 3 AM1s in every way that matters and that's before you choose a better module config, use higher tier modules, or use beacons (which don't affect AM1).

[jodokus31]

I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.

handcrafting has some advantages, which makes it "better" than AM in some situations:
- you craft every intermediate automatically without selecting (just need the raw material)
- you can queue different products in exact quantities
- you can run around and get the product once it is finished on your person
- you don't need to micromanage the feeding and picking up, unless you have automated AM with inserters (which is costs time and resources)

Avoiding automation in the long run is of course worse, however there are some products, which don't need full automation like personal equipment, nuclear reactors.

If you takes these advantage into consideration and combine it with the bulk assembling speed of parallel AMs, you get a big boost. (f.e. crafting intermediates like gears and wires to speed up handcrafting in early game)

[shopt]

I'm a bit confused by some of the responses comparing AMs to handcrafting. Is anyone seriously saying that handcrafting is better than AMs, and that they have avoided automating because AMs are too slow compared to handcrafting? To state the obvious, AMs allow parallelisation, both of the same step and between steps. 3 AM1s, boom, you are now faster than handcrafting until they add cloning yourself to the game.

handcrafting has some advantages, which makes it "better" than AM in some situations:
- you craft every intermediate automatically without selecting (just need the raw material)
- you can queue different products in exact quantities
- you can run around and get the product once it is finished on your person
- you don't need to micromanage the feeding and picking up, unless you have automated AM with inserters (which is costs time and resources)

Avoiding automation in the long run is of course worse, however there are some products, which don't need full automation like personal equipment, nuclear reactors.

If you takes these advantage into consideration and combine it with the bulk assembling speed of parallel AMs, you get a big boost. (f.e. crafting intermediates like gears and wires to speed up handcrafting in early game)

All of that is valid, I was never trying to say that handcrafting is never the answer. I use it plenty, but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.

[jodokus31]

...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.

I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?

[Silari]

...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.

I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?

It's literally in the OP

Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.

[GrumpyJoe]

If we are comparing handcrafting with machine speeds, can we please consider getting rid of handcrafting altogether, at least for the sake of talking about what's possible?

Factorio is about automating, the only reason to craft anything by hand seems to be that you will be a faster in the early game, compared to lazy bastard achievement.

It does not make ANY sense to handcraft faster than an AM1, but do you really want handcraft speed to be 0.2 or something?

The best solution to this would be to give the player an AM1, some power stuff and other necessary things I didn't think of now, when the game starts.


The rest is just math, you can talk about (or mod it) any speed you like. AM3 crafting speed 10, why not?
I find it strange that people want to get rid of some ratio puzzles because math is hard?

[jodokus31]

...but the reason is never because "a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous" (and various times that sentiment has been repeated). I'm just confused as to why people are complaining that assemblers have a slower speed than handcrafting, like that's the deciding factor in whether to automate or not.

I'm not sure where you read that. maybe quote it?

It's literally in the OP

Even before that, progressing thru post mid-game with a machine that crafts even slower than hand-craft speed always seemed ridiculous.

Oops I somehow ignored the introduction sentence.
I agree, that it has no big impact, if handcrafting is slower or not, it's just different.

If we are comparing handcrafting with machine speeds, can we please consider getting rid of handcrafting altogether, at least for the sake of talking about what's possible?

As much as I enjoy lazy bastard, i think handcrafting is one of the biggest QoL aspects and it helps to bootstrap faster.

[ptx0]

We re-did factories or start over with new games many times already.

What was ok for an early access beta isn't ok for a stable, released game. Expectations are very different and many people can be upset.

Sure, new features and small balancing changes are still possible. They already buffed productivity modules 1, for example.

But honestly, do you really had problems with steel for AM2, aside from deathworld marathon? You shouldn't compare costs and speeds to old versions, you should look at them in the current context. Does AM2 costs too much for a +50% crafting speed? I don't think so.

And while simpler ratios like 0.5x, 1x and 2x are more intuitive, "strange" ratios like 0.5x and 0.75x gave us interesting builds, like green circuits factory used by speedrunners.

well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

[Silari]

well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.

[ptx0]

well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.

I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.

Screenshot_20210919_120046.png (20.49 KiB) Viewed 6185 times

this even broke some mods.

[ptx0]

Screenshot_20210919_120329.png (14.46 KiB) Viewed 6184 times

they even adjusted productivity module balance post-release. broke some builds! oh no! turns out that's not actually a problem.

[jodokus31]

well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.

I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png

this even broke some mods.

IIRC, it was still in experimental phase of 1.1.
Final release was in 2021 according to this
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-364

EDIT: The actual module change was for 1.1.0
So, it was a major release

[Silari]

well, that's your opinion. they've changed productivity post-release, etc. you can put productivity modules in uranium cell recycling.

they're allowed to change the game. it's just a game. people can get upset, i doubt they will stop playing.

You could always use productivity in fuel reprocessing. They re-added the ability to use it with the kovarex process in 0.17. Neither of those was a post release change - release means 1.0/1.1. A drastic change like that that breaks factories would be a major release to 1.2, not a 1.1.x.

I really hate it when you guys say stuff that's blatently incorrect while simultaneously treating me like I'm some idiot child.
Screenshot_20210919_120046.png

this even broke some mods.

Bluh. Wiki is missing that change on the reprocessing page. I shouldn't have relied on the history, since it's always missing stuff. In any case those are still fairly minor changes which don't break existing setups at all, it just adds another option for module choice.

The productivity change was in the 1.1 update, aka a major release, which they aren't doing anymore. You can change things like that in a major release, especially ignoring if it breaks mods since they 100% break anyway with the number change, but they've said they aren't doing those anymore.

[ptx0]

IIRC, it was still in experimental phase of 1.1.
Final release was in 2021 according to this
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-364

EDIT: The actual module change was for 1.1.0
So, it was a major release

keep shifting the goalpost however you need to feel good about yourself

[Koub]

[Koub] Feel free to refocus on the original topic. The version number prod modules were changed is very far from OP's suggestion.

[foamy]

I've always thought it was weird that the only thing in the game that crafts at the default crafting speed was the one thing the entire game is built around not crafting with.

Not true, oil refineries and rocket silos also craft at 1! :v