Ammo rebalance

[Tri gena]

I want to add 2c on defence economics. Hopefully, it might be useful for the expansion.

tl;dr Now Yellow-Red-Green ammo deal 5-8-24 damage. I believe, altering them to 4-10-28 would be better for game balance.

I believe that damage economics is important, especially for combat oriented plays (DW, Warptorio, some custom maps).
I believe, there's a problem with ammo balance that should be fixed, but is not discussed (or I haven't found the discussion).
I've searched through the forums and Discord a bit and the only comparatively recent discussion about defence economics I've found is a topic from Nefrums
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=88482
and some posts from Putin's chest on Discord.

I've looked at the following:
HP / final ammo dmg = shots to kill (round up).
Shots to kill * ammo cost (in ore) = cost to kill (CTK).

I've calculated CTK for all types of ammo and dmg upgrades and 4 kinds of biters.
First column are combinations of ammo and damage upgrade lvl.
All other columns - CTK a relevant biter (in units of ore).
Dark green - the best option of the three for a relevant tech level (TL). Light green - second best. Gray - worst or unfeasible.

dmg.png (76.77 KiB) Viewed 4163 times

As it could be seen on the left half of the image, red ammo CTK is worse than yellow CTK for the majority of ingame situations. Yellow ammo CTK is even better than the green ammo CTK for high TLs.
(I've omitted spitters, since they're unarmored and their CTK follows the same logic.)
(I've omitted energy costs and acid cost for uranium mining, but they would turn the situation even more in favor of yellow ammo.)
I'll ignore productivity modules for now.

So currently the starter yellow ammo is the most efficient one.
Red ammo should be used only for tech (or some fringe cases, like player going out on car drive-bys in the beginning of the game).
Green ammo is good for cases when DPS from flamers and yellow ammo isn't enough (it doesn't really happen in vanilla Factorio).
This happens because higher tier ammo is prohibitively more expensive.

I suggest to alter the balance with the following assumptions.
- I assume that higher tier ammo should be better and should generally replace lower tier ammo.
- I assume that minimal ammo fixes are desirable (as not to alter overall game balance). That's why I'm not suggesting changing ammo costs.

I believe that changing ammo damage to 4-10-28 would fix the problem, as could be seen on the right half of the attached image.
Yellow ammo becomes an economic option vs weak enemies, red ammo is an intermediate one, while green one is more efficient vs higher tier enemies.

Alternatively a new mechanic could be added that would make red and green ammo better vs armored biters (armor piercing or additional uranium shells radiation DOT).
I was originally going to suggest the minimal possible change to the balance, so I don't think I should elaborate.

P.S. As I've said, I've ignored productivity mods in my calculation. My take is that ammo balance should be correct without additional shenanigans.
However, I've run the costs in Kirk's calculator and even with prod mods the problem persists. Here're the links.
https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... late:p3:p3
https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... late:p3:p3
https://kirkmcdonald.github.io/calc.htm ... HHqf13Cw==
(note that energy costs and infrastructure costs grow significantly for higher tier ammo)
Yellow ammo costs 200 ore, red one - 650, green - 1150 (plus oil). So the ammo costs are 1:3.25:5.75 while raw damage is 1:1.6::4.8. Cost increases quicker than the damage output even with prod mods.

edit: typos, clarifications. Also, there were some derps, replaced the pic.

[Panzerknacker]

I like your ammo piercing suggestion, think we simply need an extra mechanic to give the better ammo really an edge over the cheap stuff other than just raw damage per second. Ultimately even the cheap ammo will become extremely powerful even against high armor targets, that is due to the inifinite research isnt it?

[Xelephant]

How did you calculated shots to kill?
Is this only for gun turrets?
How would it change for the other weapons that don't get double damage bonus?

The science cost to reach Damage bonus 11 is huge as well.

And while a Gunturret will do 120 dmg the Tank will only do 21, maybe the argument could be made to stop giving gun turrets a bonus in infinite Research.

[Koub]

...

I can't figure out the way you calculated your stuff. I did a sanity check, and things don't seem to match.

Take the simplest example : small biter (15 HP, no DR, no res%), with a yellow magazine.

With a gun, you'd need the 7th damage upgrade to OS a small biter (200% bonus, 5 base damage, 15 total)
With a turret, you will start one shotting small biters at 4 damage upgrades (80% bonuses) : 5*1.8*1.8=16.2

So if your calculations are based on turrets, 1st column of yellow magazine, the cost to kill should reach its minimal value at the 4th upgrade (and 7th if you're calculating with handled guns).

[Tri gena]

I can't figure out the way you calculated your stuff. I did a sanity check, and things don't seem to match.
So if your calculations are based on turrets, 1st column of yellow magazine, the cost to kill should reach its minimal value at the 4th upgrade (and 7th if you're calculating with handled guns).

Yes, of course calc is based on turrets, because they're the main source of damage in the base. I kinda forgot to mention it.

Dmg upgrade lvl 5 is needed to OS a small biter. You're correct, it's 5*(1.8*1.8)=16.2.
Lvl 4 upgrade is 1.6*1.6=12.8. I've rechecked it in the game.

Yellow mag costs 4 plates, or 0.4 per bullet. Or 0.4 ore CTK at dmg TL 5.

Also, I've checked and there's a mistake in my calculation for dmg levels 7+. On the lvls 1-6 ammo bonus is equal for turret bonus, I've assumed that it's the same for endless lvls, but it's not. It doesn't change the conclusions re: comparative ammo economics, since turret multiplier is applied equally.
I'll reupload the pic in a moment.

edit: No, I was wrong. As it turned out, with correct turret damage, and after alterations in damage, yellow ammo becomes the best economically on dmg lvl 11. It's not relevant for the majority of ordinary games, but I'm still changing OP to recommend increasing green ammo damage to 28 (basically, anything higher than yellow ammo damage*6 should do, 28 is just a good number).

Is this only for gun turrets?
How would it change for the other weapons that don't get double damage bonus?

Yes, it's only for gun turrets.
I don't really care how it would change for handheld weapons, because turrets are the main source of damage in the base. My take is that everything a player does with small guns or in a car can be regarded as fun, while turret damage cost is a question of economics.

How did you calculated shots to kill?

HP / final ammo dmg = shots to kill (round up).
Damage formulas are from here.
https://wiki.factorio.com/Damage
I've ignored time to kill. In my DW experience, a proper defence destroys an incoming biter wave in a few seconds, so HP regen is immaterial.

[Qon]

I suggest to alter the balance with the following assumptions.
- I assume that higher tier ammo should be better and should generally replace lower tier ammo.

Wrong. That is not your assumption.
Fact: Higher tier ammo deals more damage = is better already
That is not your assumption, it is just obvious. If you meant more cost effective then you should have said that instead.
Also, being cost effective might not really be a good goal for higher tier ammo. You are forced to upgrade your ammo to keep up with biter evolution. A cost effective factory isn't good if it's destroyed by the natives. DPS is more important. Factory output can be increased to afford the extra cost. And if you want cheap ammo for less ore and energy then use laser turrets.

And with enough infinite bullet damage upgrades any ammo tier will have enough DPS, so not worth discussing the balance of end game base defense.

[FuryoftheStars]

Frankly, I don't see (or feel) the need to have higher tier ammo also be more cost effective. I feel like that should be the tradeoff, no?

[Koub]

The way I'm used to seeing things is that higher tiers should be better in some, but not all ways.

Assembling machine 3 is better at speed, at module slots, but if time and space didn't matter, Assembling machine 1s would do the job better for less resources.

Same thing with belts : 3 yellow belts are WAY cheaper than 3 blue belts, but have the same added throughput.

I'm expecting the same kind of trade offs with ammo.

[borgiedude]

I think you're right that red ammo doesn't feel worth the cost to craft. I generally stick on yellow turrets spaced as close together as needed, supporting flame throwers and never need better defense, but it would be good to consider red ammo as worth the extra investment.
I think by the time you get to Green ammo, crafting it is useful to use up weaker isotopes of uranium while you get your uranium enrichment process underway.
It feels like red should be stronger, but I have to consider that Wube thought of this too and set the balance where it is for a good reason.

[Tri gena]

Same thing with belts : 3 yellow belts are WAY cheaper than 3 blue belts, but have the same added throughput.

I'm expecting the same kind of trade offs with ammo.

I feel like that should be the tradeoff, no?

There's no tradeoff, because DPS isn't an issue.
How many turrets can hit one target? About 58 (power pole represents a biter).

58 turrets.png (1.58 MiB) Viewed 4057 times

What's the maximum DPS? At 6 lvl dmg and speed upgrade (same yellow science as the one needed for green ammo) each turret churns out 25 shots / sec @ 24.2 dmg. Or 13.2 dmg vs green biters.
So they would deal 58*25*13.2=19140 dmg against biters that ran up to the wall. It's 6 green biters dead per second. The main problem becomes feeding turrets with enough ammo since they eat 2.5 mags/sec or 12.5/sec for 5 rows of turrets.

I've ran some tests vs 7-8 biter waves (DW, arty provoked attacks). Biters do chew through this setup somewhat successfully.
(99 evo, dmg and speed upgrades 5-6)

incoming.png (2.55 MiB) Viewed 4057 times

TL5

tl5.png (2.64 MiB) Viewed 4057 times

TL6

tl6.png (2.66 MiB) Viewed 4057 times

Note two things:
- this wall intentionally has no flamers;
- endgame DW enemy has trouble getting through beginner-grade defences boosted by a universal damage upgrade that all players do thoughtlessly.
I think everyone knows that adding 2-4 flamers per chunk makes the wall completely impervious to an unlimited amount of biters. There's no point making any ammo but yellow in vanilla, because yellow ammo is more than enough to finish off few biters that might get through flamers.

Flamers are cheaty, but at least they provide some logistical challenge - players have to feed them via pipes (and probably trains), have to combine them with walls and turrets.

Laser turrets are even cheatier. They're more cost effective than gun turrets and require no supporting logistics. Ammo in turrets deals 30-60 dmg per ore on TL 6. Laser turrets deal 100 dmg/coal on TL0 and 330 dmg/coal on TL6.
Lasers have lower DPS than flamers, but they need no supporting logistics to work and can be spammed anywhere.

I have to consider that Wube thought of this too and set the balance where it is for a good reason.

Based on the numbers, I believe that Wube did combat balance more or less randomly. It's ok with me, because it's of secondary importance in vanilla Factorio and they likely had more important issues during development.
I hope that this approach would change in FSA.
This topic is me poking them with few simple examples in case they haven't already thought about it. Changing combat balance should take a week or two and they still have a year of dev time.

[Qon]

There's no tradeoff, because DPS isn't an issue.
How many turrets can hit one target? About 58 (power pole represents a biter).
58 turrets.png
What's the maximum DPS? At 6 lvl dmg and speed upgrade (same yellow science as the one needed for green ammo) each turret churns out 25 shots / sec @ 24.2 dmg. Or 13.2 dmg vs green biters.

You are forced to use that many turrets because you use yellow ammo. If you wanted to use less turrets with red or green ammo then that is an option. Also green ammo is basically the same cost as red, the U-238 is abundant and you will be looking for ways to get rid of it.

So in an actual playthrough you aren't upgrading ammo then? Because it's a bit tricky to get high damage research levels and not upgrading your ammo when you could do a bit of both.

[Qon]

But I'm not really against 4-10-24 damage (I'm neutral so far). I'm just against your reasoning. If you argued that 8 damage for red ammo vs 5 for yellow is a fairly small upgrade compared to the damage research bonuses (I haven't checked those numbers) and that the cost for such a small damage bonus doesn't really motivate the upgrade I could see your point. Pulling in green ammo and saying it is unnecessary and too expensive just weakens your point, it is much stronger and comes late enough that the resource demands are negligible. Red ammo vs yellow is at a point where you don't have all the resources and can't research your way to much stronger ammo, here a sensible argument could be made.

[Koub]

But I'm not really against 4-10-24 damage (I'm neutral so far). I'm just against your reasoning. If you argued that 8 damage for red ammo vs 5 for yellow is a fairly small upgrade compared to the damage research bonuses (I haven't checked those numbers) and that the cost for such a small damage bonus doesn't really motivate the upgrade I could see your point. Pulling in green ammo and saying it is unnecessary and too expensive just weakens your point, it is much stronger and comes late enough that the resource demands are negligible. Red ammo vs yellow is at a point where you don't have all the resources and can't research your way to much stronger ammo, here a sensible argument could be made.

Same thing here : it's not the conclusion I have the most issues with, it's the reasoning behind.

The reason I'd advocate against lowering yellow from 5 to 4, is because at very early game a 20% nerf in DPS (or in damage per resource) would be a huge push back given the limited resources at hand.

Once biters start getting armour and damage reduction, I will want to upgrade to red quickly, but not immediately. Nerfing the yellow ammo from 5 to 4 would lower the damage done to a medium biter a LOT.
With 2 damage upgrades, one bullet goes from 2.88 damage on a medium biter (with 5 base damage) to 1.54 (with a base damage of 4). That would be a 44% damage per bullet nerf, forcing to switch to red ammo earlier, which I think is not desirable.

With only one damage upgrade, the drop in damage would be even worse, because of the flat 4 DR : damage per bullet would go 1.58 => 0.76, an almost 60 % nerf.

As for buffing red ammo from 8 to 10, why not, the buff would be very helpful in the beginning, not that much in middle-endgame.

[Xelephant]

I had a bit fun doing a BTK (Bullets to Kill) overview of the different ammos, and then wanted to see if it add up with ingame stuff. Without upgrades it should take 84 shots of yellow ammo to kill a medium biter. With 1 Turret i get 90 bullets used, Stack of 10 magazines reduced to singel full one. It gets funny if it put 3 Turrets down, then it only takes a total 76 bullets to kill the medium biter. Does anyone know how multiple sources of damage are handeled against biters?

[Koub]

I didn't bother accounting for the health regeneration, which, for a medium biter, is 0.01 per tick. It's negligible on a couple rounds, but it's a 0.6 per second, so 84 bullets with no regen, translating into 8.4s firing, that's an additional 8.4 times 0.6 HP, so 5.04 HP regenerated during the first 8.4 seconds of fight, which in turn will take you 5.6 bullets, and an additional 0.56 seconds shooting, during which the biter will regen an additional HP, and then die at the next bullet.

The longer the fight, the more bullets will be needed.

[Xelephant]

I did the time and crunched the numbers myself, with the 3 different formulas in the wiki.

Here are the bullets needed to kill a biter

bulletschart.PNG (515.32 KiB) Viewed 3922 times

here is the chart with your cost

costchart.PNG (528.93 KiB) Viewed 3922 times

I added the .ods if someone feels to need to verify it.

The nerf of the yellow ammo while make the first encounter with medium biter harder for new player with low dmg upgrade. Th Upgrade of red to 10 make them viable against big biter without any dmg upgrades. In the end it won't matter what the numbers are since the flame thrower is a thing.

I wonder if there is even a usecase for uranium bullets agains small and medium biter, i feel by the time you hav it you face big biters and mybe even behemoth.

While not beeing cost efficent uranium is the best ammo to choose for the TTK. As you screenshot demonstrate you will have a additional cost of replacing the gun turrets with yellow ammo.

[Tri gena]

You are forced to use that many turrets because you use yellow ammo.

I'm not forced. It was a half-assed example for the sake of an argument "DPS isn't an issue".
My usual perimeter is (I think) a typical DW double turret row with flamers.

[Qon]

You are forced to use that many turrets because you use yellow ammo.

I'm not forced. It was a half-assed example for the sake of an argument "DPS isn't an issue".
My usual perimeter is (I think) a typical DW double turret row with flamers.

Yes, you are forced. In the context you established we are talking about gun turrets with yellow ammo without other turrets to help out. You established this context, don't ignore all your own posts to score some stupid worthless point.

[Koub]

[Koub] Moderator-me here. I'd rather not see words like stupid or worthless around here. Please stay polite and don't force me do some active moderation.

[Tri gena]

As you screenshot demonstrate you will have a additional cost of replacing the gun turrets with yellow ammo.

Yes, but the conclusion about total cost is the same.

An average attack for that test case had about 150 blue spitters, 120 blue biters, 75 green spitters, 90 green biters. This is 457k enemy HP. The yellow ammo CTK them @ TL6 is about 11.5k ore. Red ammo CTK 20.7k. The difference is about 9k ore. Turret price is 50 ore, green inserter - 90, small pole - 1. Let's say, 150 ore total per turret (to account for ammo lost inside turrets, destroyed walls and psychological damage).
If I lose less than 60 turrets in the attack, I'm net ore positive.

And yes, it's a dumb example. Nobody plays that way. Flamers make defence an almost zero-cost issue, so nobody has a reason to think about combat economics.

My points are the following. Current combat balance is bad. There may be quick fixes relevant to vanilla. I've suggested one option for ammo rebalance. This logic could be expanded to other types of weapons. I hope that devs had already thought about it all, we'd get a proper fix in FSA, and this discussion is moot.

edit: changed yellow inserter price to green, because why not