Push sulfur to blue tier.

[bobucles]

I had gone through the reasons in another thread but decided to make a dedicated topic here. The basic idea is in the title. Sulfur is a raw material that consumes huge amounts of petroleum gas. Basic oil production does not provide enough gas by a long shot, so the player needs to research advanced oil to make sulfur based items. Advanced oil is blue tech. So why not push Sulfur technology to the blue tier?

The most important issue is that blue potions require sulfur for their batteries. It is simple to remove the battery requirement, and upgrade a simpler item to a heavier requirement. IMO the best option is to upgrade the steel bar into a basic engine. This makes blue potions very iron heavy and keeps a similar level of production complexity, but it is FAR cheaper on oil. That gets rid of the weird hiccup where blue potions require blue research to be viable.

What does blue tier sulfur do for combat? It seems to be very little. Gun turrets are pretty nice now and ammo based defenses are pretty reliable. Player equipment doesn't need sulfur until the processing units for advanced armor. Module batteries become difficult to get, and they are pretty important for solar powered suits. They would need a considerable buff to be viable at blue tier. Rockets also get pushed further down, but they can't be strong AND struck at the lowly green tier. This gives an opportunity for rocket buffs. There is a slight hiccup where basic modular armor is green tier, but requires a small number processing units. This recipe would need to change, perhaps to use speed modules or electric engines instead.

What does blue tier sulfur do for bases? Obviously you can't use battery items until blue tier. This means you can have solar panels, but can't use them permanently until accumulators come much later. Laser turrets are slower to get, which means more effort is needed on early gun turrets and walls. ALL the logistic systems get pushed into blue tier because drones need batteries for their flying frames. This is not a major change for a logistic bot rush, as you need advanced oil and a blue tier base in any case to pump out bots for the system. I'd argue these bots are strong enough to warrant being blue tier in any case. Processing units take sulfur, but they are also arguably a blue tier component.

So what do you guys think? I think it is a good idea to break up the massive techsplosion that happens at green tier. The player already gains access to vehicles, trains, solar, and a whole new oil resource chain. That's a lot to learn at once. That's a lot of factory to build all at once! Removing sulfur from the equation helps to ease the deluge of new green tech, and it makes blue tech far more rewarding to get. Take care to note that many of the best technologies need sulfur as an ingredient. Logistic systems are awesome, solar power that works at night is awesome, and laser turrets are awesome. These are all very powerful and game changing things individually, but they are not CRITICAL techs that the player immediately NEEDS to have. That makes them good candidates for being blue tech.

[ssilk]

Your reasons sound well thought. But I think this is a balancing suggestion and move it to there.

My idea about this is, that it is not so difficult to make a mod out of it, which does all those changes (AFAIK nothing needs to be programmed, just recipes and tech-tree changes, should be really easy even for non-programmers with a bit technical background) and play with it around, cause I can really not decide from reading it, if this is really useful or not.

[bobucles]

Well in short, the main idea is to help out the tech pacing. Green tech gives pretty much everything, which createss a steep learning curve since everything happens at once. Pushing some of the items out of green is an indirect help more for new players, who get fewer things to worry about. I know I had problems trying to grab all the green items at once, it just doesn't happen. In the long run blue sulfur counts as a major tech nerf because many excellent items are getting pushed back. This is somewhat mitigated with a simpler blue potion recipe but obviously nothing's perfect.

[bobingabout]

I'm not sure sulphur should be a blue tier item, in fact I'm fairly sure it shouldn't be, there's too many things that are used in quite a lot of places that would break if you did this. EG: Batteries, they're used to make Logistic Robots and Laser turrets, now although you could argue that they're high end items, I have people arguing the oposite in some of my mod posts. These arguments though are partly due to me adding higher tier versions of said items, including a higher tier battery intermediate.

Processing units though, I agree should be a blue tier item. in fact my mod does adjust the tree a little to solve this issue.

These are some changes in my mod related to the processing unit to blue tier, that I think would be good for the base game:
Advanced Electronics 2 now requires blue science.
Processing Unit requires Advanced Electronics 2 to craft. This effectively pushs Processing unit to blue tier.
Prerequisite of Robotics changed from Advanced Electronics 2, to Advanced electronics, to still make it able to be researched at green science level.

Why processing units? Currently they're unlocked at the same time as advanced circuits, and you most likely lack the abillity to build them. Also, everything that uses them as a component is already in the blue tier. (I think, at least nobody has complained about this in my mods so far.)



Now... Sulphur moving up a tier is something that I can see as viable... but only if there were more tiers to space things out a bit more. Moving one item, and everything that depends on it up a tier simply because you think too many things are unlocked on that tier isn't really justified. Why sulphur, why not something else? Too many questions can spring from it. I do see you have put some thought and effort into it though, so I'm not bashing the idea, just voicing my opinion.

[bobucles]

there's too many things that are used in quite a lot of places that would break if you did this.

I've already explained why it doesn't break things, at least not for vanilla. There is no point where anything critical is unavailable, and the only needed change is for the blue potion recipe. Two more tweaks are good for the modular suit and the suit solar panel as well. Beyond that, the game still flows mostly the same. Players need a certain sized factory to use battery related items. That factory size is large and inevitably uses advanced oil. Advanced oil factories already have access to blue tech. So the biggest change for batteries is making blue tech mandatory, rather than pretty much required anyway.

Keep in mind that blue potions use a LOT less oil with these suggested changes. That means blue tech becomes easier to get at the same time that many items get pushed to blue tier. The effects cancel out to be a less drastic change than you might think.

I have people arguing the oposite in some of my mod posts.

I won't deny that laser turrets and accumulators are great. However they are not critical items. Players have 4 major steps of energy production:

- Coal boilers
- Solid fuel boiler
- Supporting solar (only panels)
- Full solar (w/ accumulator)

Each energy step has advantages over the previous. Solid fuel is unlimited, solar drastically reduces pollution, and full solar eliminates fuel entirely. There is no point in the green tier where full solar is NEEDED, even if it were possible without advanced oil. It is merely a convenience to have. Same thing with base defenses:

- Player arsenal
- Gun Turrets / belt fed turrets
- Laser Turrets
- Logistic support turrets

It is perfectly viable to defend a base with gun turrets, and belt fed turrets will suffice for a long time thanks to their buffs. The infinite ammo of laser turrets is once again a convenience that makes large bases better to manage. Unlocking these techs at green is a moot point because the base has to be sufficiently advanced to be considered blue tier regardless.

Why sulphur, why not something else?

Because nothing else is as powerful, nor as oil hungry, nor as optional like sulfur is. Trains are critical for expanding mining operations, and HAVE to be green tier. Cars are excellent for map exploration, making them good at green tier. Advanced circuits are critical for modules and electric furnaces, and have modest oil demand. They are well suited for green tier. Gun turrets give base defense well into green tier. Logistic systems take base development into a whole new age of automation. They are needed AFTER the player has trains and furnaces and defenses. That makes them NOT suited for green tier. Explosives require a massive oil foundation and numerous upgrades to be okay. They are clearly unsuited for green tier. Infinite, no pollution power is unsuited for green tier.

Guess what everything unsuited for green tier uses? You guessed it. Sulfur.

Sulfur has high oil demand, an involved production chain, and the most powerful products in the game. How can it NOT be a high tech good that belongs in blue tier?

[MalcolmCooks]

This is a good idea actually. Gun turrets in .12 can defend bases against spitters and big biters with only green teir science, so laser turrets aren't needed anymore - hence accumulators and even solar aren't needed. That "blue science hiccup" is also really annoying - I usually revert to making 75 blue science packs by hand before I actually build a real oil refinery. I would love to see it go away.

On a side note, it's also kind of weird that chemical batteries are used like capacitors in factorio... but then again, solar panels use green circuits with not a semiconductor in sight