Development and Discussion

[kingarthur]

i downloaded the arumba mod pack and yuokis mods to see if i could find the issue and its fine for me. can you provide a full list of mods your using and or a copy of your save so i can try and find whats causing the conflict.

[Durabys]

This just updated mod is fantastic for the early game when using Angel's mod:
https://mods.factorio.com/mods/V453000/ ... r-Inserter
No research needed, just one filter slot and only as fast as the basic burner inserter but really helps with the initial (first 30 minutes) resource set up.

[NewSwiss]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

[Arch666Angel]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

[Airat9000]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

AnonyMods - Overhaul compartible in future??
I'll help in alignment?? what files to change and where I will try to learn at the same time

я могу сам помощь в совмещении?? какие файлы менять и где я попробую сам заодно поучусь

[mexmer]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

Why i agree loaders should require energy (consumption and drain), and somewhat more than inserter, i would not say they need to eat LOT energy (as afk2minute suggests), they do have only little (or you say none), downsides, but increasing energy cost is quite pointless, since energy is thing, you might have problem with at start, but quite fast you get to point, where energy is nonissue.

[Arch666Angel]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

Why i agree loaders should require energy (consumption and drain), and somewhat more than inserter, i would not say they need to eat LOT energy (as afk2minute suggests), they do have only little (or you say none), downsides, but increasing energy cost is quite pointless, since energy is thing, you might have problem with at start, but quite fast you get to point, where energy is nonissue.

You cant just add in energy consumption and drain, it is not in the entity, so it would require scripting, which I wont do.

[Kazuar]

Hi Kazuar,

If you mean Batteries 2 - here it is: it requires purple science which requires lithium ion batteries!!!

So frustrating lol.


regards,

Well, that is at least the place where the lithium batteries are supposed to be. Looks like some other mod also screwed with the tech tree.
I'll repeat what the other posters (afk2minute/mexmer) here have suggested: try searching for "lithium", or just "lith", and hope the batteries show up somewhere.
Otherwise, it would look like the specific mods you got broke the tech tree completly. In that case, you might have to start a new game with the conflicting mods removed, or try searching the official wiki for the console cheats that unlock the batteries you're missing.



******************************************************

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

Why i agree loaders should require energy (consumption and drain), and somewhat more than inserter, i would not say they need to eat LOT energy (as afk2minute suggests), they do have only little (or you say none), downsides, but increasing energy cost is quite pointless, since energy is thing, you might have problem with at start, but quite fast you get to point, where energy is nonissue.

Sorry for nitpicking, but a LOT isn't a clearly defined amount of energy. 200kW would certainly count as a LOT, for example, when compared to inserters.
I'd pay 200kW of power for a standard loader. Not gonna pay 5MW for a loader, regardless of it's type.

That said, I don't get the problem that people see with loaders. Sure, making them cost electrical energy makes sense, since inserters need power, but all that means is that I'll have to place an undergound belt at some spot. If I'm not able to use loaders, due to them being overpriced in power or crafting, I'll just end up designing some inserter contraption to achieve the same throughput, thanks to bobs OP inserter interface, even if it means splitting the belt into a 3 by 5 belt segment so that a 3 by 5 block of angled inserters can shove the stuff from the belts into the 3 by 3 assembler.

At that point, achieving the same result by plonking down a loader just amounts to convinience. Sure, convinience should have a price, but we don't need to go crazy over that imho. I mean, laser turrets are just convinience when compared to gun turrets, and they are very much affordable in power, crafting, and research cost. If one really feels that they are too convinient, cut their loading/unloading speed in half to that two of them are needed to create/process a fully loaded belt of their type: suddenly, chests are much more difficult to use with full throughput, and the ever so popular warehouses and ore silos have only half as much "ports" for loaders, unless using a higher tier of loader whose price(s) is(are) based around that higher tier of transport belts. Unless you're using express belts or higher.

Just, you know, my two cents

[mexmer]

Just make loaders consume ALOT of energy.

I don't like this idea. As of now, loaders don't consume any power IIRC, which enables you to really saturate things without worrying where to fit power poles. Requiring power would change how they can be used. And maybe this is just me, but I don't think of loaders as electronic, just like ramps that allow a chest or machine to dump their contents onto a belt as fast as the belt can carry it away.

I would agree if they dont have filters, but they have. Also the entity the loader is competing against is the inserter, which needs energy and has a drain. So the point of the loader is that it has no real downside, making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

Why i agree loaders should require energy (consumption and drain), and somewhat more than inserter, i would not say they need to eat LOT energy (as afk2minute suggests), they do have only little (or you say none), downsides, but increasing energy cost is quite pointless, since energy is thing, you might have problem with at start, but quite fast you get to point, where energy is nonissue.

You cant just add in energy consumption and drain, it is not in the entity, so it would require scripting, which I wont do.

i see, have not looked into source yet, so i though they based on inserters or logic boxes.
maybe in 0.15 we will get better control in mods over power consumption/production of ANY and every entity, it would help a lot, current prototype system is quite limited.

[madras51]

I have checked some Youtube videos - as recently as Aug 2016, the tech tree did not include Science Pack 4 (purple) as a prerequisite for Lithium Ion Batteries 9only green, red and blue science was necessary).

Is there a way to change this back?

Thanks

madras51

[madras51]

Decided to try the shortcut and use the console to grant research of Battery 2 - it worked but still no Lithium Ion Batteries!!! They do not show up in any searches so looks like they do not exist!!!

[madras51]

kingarthur,

attached is my last savegame before I tried the Console solution.

madras51

[mexmer]

@mandra51, like i said, it's issue created by one of mods you use.
creating circular dependencies is not that hard, especialy in games that involve multiple mods from different authors.

usually when people not start with clean sheet, but rather adding mods later in game even don't notice, there is such thing, because they have already researched tech. but like in your case, when you add new mod early (or start with it), you might run into such issue.

you will need ask author of such mod to do proper fix, for complex mods like angels or bobs, it's simply is not possible to make fix for every little mod out there, so they only focus in general cooperability between selected modpacks, and even that is quite time consuming.

bellow is picture of tech tree from game, that has "only" all bobs, all angels and bottleneck, and it has no such circular dependency.

lion

[kingarthur]

@mandra51, like i said, it's issue created by one of mods you use.
creating circular dependencies is not that hard, especialy in games that involve multiple mods from different authors.

usually when people not start with clean sheet, but rather adding mods later in game even don't notice, there is such thing, because they have already researched tech. but like in your case, when you add new mod early (or start with it), you might run into such issue.

you will need ask author of such mod to do proper fix, for complex mods like angels or bobs, it's simply is not possible to make fix for every little mod out there, so they only focus in general cooperability between selected modpacks, and even that is quite time consuming.

bellow is picture of tech tree from game, that has "only" all bobs, all angels and bottleneck, and it has no such circular dependency.

lion

sorry the post was made for me to see as i needed him to upload a copy of his save so i could get his full mod list to see what mod was causing the issue. it should have been posted somewhere else but it did what i needed

[madras51]

Thanks everyone, particularly kingarthur who fixed the problem with the gimprovements mod I was using.

I now have Lithium Ion Batteries!!!!

Should I notify the author of that mod?

Regards,

madras51

[mexmer]

@mandra51, like i said, it's issue created by one of mods you use.
creating circular dependencies is not that hard, especialy in games that involve multiple mods from different authors.

usually when people not start with clean sheet, but rather adding mods later in game even don't notice, there is such thing, because they have already researched tech. but like in your case, when you add new mod early (or start with it), you might run into such issue.

you will need ask author of such mod to do proper fix, for complex mods like angels or bobs, it's simply is not possible to make fix for every little mod out there, so they only focus in general cooperability between selected modpacks, and even that is quite time consuming.

bellow is picture of tech tree from game, that has "only" all bobs, all angels and bottleneck, and it has no such circular dependency.

lion

sorry the post was made for me to see as i needed him to upload a copy of his save so i could get his full mod list to see what mod was causing the issue. it should have been posted somewhere else but it did what i needed

i did not have time yet to look at his save, just posted pic from clean started game, to point out issue is not in angels ...

anyways good work sorting that out

@madra51 that would be best, contacting author of mod that created circular dependency

[NewSwiss]

Making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

But that's what makes the end game so satisfying. You can do pretty much anything just because you're filthy-rich. By that point you've already put in 30+ hours where you were scraping for resources, seems only fair that at that point you should be allowed to go full lazymode about inserters/loaders if you can afford it.

Also, I had another thought: loaders are an optional convenience. You don't get them unless you install a mod to make them available. It seems wrong to change that and say "no, you can only have a few of them". If you do decide to put heavy restrictions on them, it should be toggleable in a config file.

[Arch666Angel]

Making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

But that's what makes the end game so satisfying. You can do pretty much anything just because you're filthy-rich. By that point you've already put in 30+ hours where you were scraping for resources, seems only fair that at that point you should be allowed to go full lazymode about inserters/loaders if you can afford it.

Also, I had another thought: loaders are an optional convenience. You don't get them unless you install a mod to make them available. It seems wrong to change that and say "no, you can only have a few of them". If you do decide to put heavy restrictions on them, it should be toggleable in a config file.

My plan is to have them as a "native" in the logistics mod, but with the restriction that you need a certain component to build them, which can only be obtained (for now at least) by hunting and gathering resources from crystal rocks, the other restriction then is that you will get 1 (one) machine to turn them into the raws you need for processing them further, maybe even with a high cycle time (10 minutes+), so you have to come back from time to time to keep it running. That's the general idea, probably use this for most items that run of magic unrestricted power, or some kind of reactor.
I'll think about adding such an option.

[Airat9000]

Making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

But that's what makes the end game so satisfying. You can do pretty much anything just because you're filthy-rich. By that point you've already put in 30+ hours where you were scraping for resources, seems only fair that at that point you should be allowed to go full lazymode about inserters/loaders if you can afford it.

Also, I had another thought: loaders are an optional convenience. You don't get them unless you install a mod to make them available. It seems wrong to change that and say "no, you can only have a few of them". If you do decide to put heavy restrictions on them, it should be toggleable in a config file.

My plan is to have them as a "native" in the logistics mod, but with the restriction that you need a certain component to build them, which can only be obtained (for now at least) by hunting and gathering resources from crystal rocks, the other restriction then is that you will get 1 (one) machine to turn them into the raws you need for processing them further, maybe even with a high cycle time (10 minutes+), so you have to come back from time to time to keep it running. That's the general idea, probably use this for most items that run of magic unrestricted power, or some kind of reactor.
I'll think about adding such an option.

my post ignore

[Arch666Angel]

@Airat9000
I'll work on making something compatible when AnonymoScoot is ready to do it.