Development and Discussion

[lovely_santa]

Hey folks,

I have 1k+ hours into AngelBob, and am currently writing an Illustrated Primer to guide folks in the 100-to-1000 hour range into an enjoyable AngelBob playthrough highlighting the game's many emergent subsystems. Buses, grids, circuits, trains, bots, modules, constrained building, and so on. I think/hope it's going to be pretty fun!

While I understand that moving away from Greenhouses edges us all towards a more realistic approach to becoming a Type-1 Kardashev Civilization, it also ditches some pretty great breadcrumbing around sorting silicon ore, using water as input in a non-power setting, and splitting wood from saplings in an a-ha! moment of massively disproportionate maybe-look-at-the-ratios-again ratio zen. Very solid very early game lessons.

This effs with my guide a bit. Greenhouses provided some pretty great points to talk on; I do not see an even-better Socrates emerging.

I'll look some more; while I'm looking, did the team consider these changes w/r/t breadcrumbing?

Thanks!

I know I did change the way the greenhouse operates, BUT I also did make sure that BOTH greenhouse cycles (with and without fertilizer) are still in there. In 0.17 this was just bobs recipe as
wood -> seedling -> wood + more wood
And now, in 0.18 I just added 1 extra step to the process, as a pre-integration in the arboretums:
wood -> seedling -> tree -> wood + more wood

If you would lay both recipes together (0.17 and 0.18), you'll see that the ratio is still the same:
2 wood -> 10 seed -> 15 wood
2 wood -> 10 seeds -> 3 trees -> 15 wood

When you only research the greenhouse, converting the trees into the wood can only happen manualy, so you can still manualy come in, and craft a full chest, ready for it to cycle through again. If you research the first stage of arboretums, you get the 1st tier of sawing, which does require the saw (aka iron plate). So there is a small cost in order to automate the full process, but I think that's part of early game, as you cannot have the best right away. At least I added in the option to convert the trees to wood manualy so you can keep your early game power running without the need of any iron.

So I think the increased complexity is minimal, and with some small manual labor early game it's still the same as it was before. Don't you think?

[yzorr]

Hey folks,

I have 1k+ hours into AngelBob, and am currently writing an Illustrated Primer to guide folks in the 100-to-1000 hour range into an enjoyable AngelBob playthrough highlighting the game's many emergent subsystems. Buses, grids, circuits, trains, bots, modules, constrained building, and so on. I think/hope it's going to be pretty fun!

While I understand that moving away from Greenhouses edges us all towards a more realistic approach to becoming a Type-1 Kardashev Civilization, it also ditches some pretty great breadcrumbing around sorting silicon ore, using water as input in a non-power setting, and splitting wood from saplings in an a-ha! moment of massively disproportionate maybe-look-at-the-ratios-again ratio zen. Very solid very early game lessons.

This effs with my guide a bit. Greenhouses provided some pretty great points to talk on; I do not see an even-better Socrates emerging.

I'll look some more; while I'm looking, did the team consider these changes w/r/t breadcrumbing?

Thanks!

I know I did change the way the greenhouse operates, BUT I also did make sure that BOTH greenhouse cycles (with and without fertilizer) are still in there. In 0.17 this was just bobs recipe as
wood -> seedling -> wood + more wood
And now, in 0.18 I just added 1 extra step to the process, as a pre-integration in the arboretums:
wood -> seedling -> tree -> wood + more wood

If you would lay both recipes together (0.17 and 0.18), you'll see that the ratio is still the same:
2 wood -> 10 seed -> 15 wood
2 wood -> 10 seeds -> 3 trees -> 15 wood

When you only research the greenhouse, converting the trees into the wood can only happen manualy, so you can still manualy come in, and craft a full chest, ready for it to cycle through again. If you research the first stage of arboretums, you get the 1st tier of sawing, which does require the saw (aka iron plate). So there is a small cost in order to automate the full process, but I think that's part of early game, as you cannot have the best right away. At least I added in the option to convert the trees to wood manualy so you can keep your early game power running without the need of any iron.

So I think the increased complexity is minimal, and with some small manual labor early game it's still the same as it was before. Don't you think?

I disagree, and strongly!

Imagine explaining the game and how to build solutions to a new player....

I think of basic electronic boards (bebs) as the pinnacle of the initial base that enables several important facilities such as flare stacks, clarifying pools, and so on. That is what a new player is building towards. Bebs. The new player does not have bebs. It is a dream for them to arrive @bebs, particularly once they figure out what bebs signify. It's a really cool milestone!

So placing wood behind bebs is harsh. Meaning: You do not automate wood before bebs, and until then you are the factory that provides the wood.

Arbs locks wood behind bebs, correct? If so, I don't think that's enough of a: wow! for an unlock.

[lovely_santa]

...
I'll look some more; while I'm looking, did the team consider these changes w/r/t breadcrumbing?

Thanks!

I know I did change the way the greenhouse operates, BUT I also did make sure that BOTH greenhouse cycles (with and without fertilizer) are still in there. In 0.17 this was just bobs recipe as
wood -> seedling -> wood + more wood
And now, in 0.18 I just added 1 extra step to the process, as a pre-integration in the arboretums:
wood -> seedling -> tree -> wood + more wood

If you would lay both recipes together (0.17 and 0.18), you'll see that the ratio is still the same:
2 wood -> 10 seed -> 15 wood
2 wood -> 10 seeds -> 3 trees -> 15 wood

When you only research the greenhouse, converting the trees into the wood can only happen manualy, so you can still manualy come in, and craft a full chest, ready for it to cycle through again. If you research the first stage of arboretums, you get the 1st tier of sawing, which does require the saw (aka iron plate). So there is a small cost in order to automate the full process, but I think that's part of early game, as you cannot have the best right away. At least I added in the option to convert the trees to wood manualy so you can keep your early game power running without the need of any iron.

So I think the increased complexity is minimal, and with some small manual labor early game it's still the same as it was before. Don't you think?

I disagree, and strongly!

Imagine explaining the game and how to build solutions to a new player....

I think of basic electronic boards (bebs) as the pinnacle of the initial base that enables several important facilities such as flare stacks, clarifying pools, and so on. That is what a new player is building towards. Bebs. The new player does not have bebs. It is a dream for them to arrive @bebs, particularly once they figure out what bebs signify. It's a really cool milestone!

So placing wood behind bebs is harsh. Meaning: You do not automate wood before bebs, and until then you are the factory that provides the wood.

Arbs locks wood behind bebs, correct? If so, I don't think that's enough of a: wow! for an unlock.

You do not need any arboretums for the initial automation (only the research!)? In the screenshot below is the first fully automated wood production. It consists out of seed extractors on the top row to convert wood to seeds (where there was a bug in a previous version, requiring bebs, but that is fixed, now it requires only basic circuit boards (bcbs), as mensioned in this post. The second row are the famous greenhouses to convert seeds into trees, and then some assembling machines to convert the trees to wood.

In order for this setup to work you need to research "Garden Processing" for the seed extractor, "Greenhouse" for bobs greenhouse + recipes and finally "Tree Arboretum 1& for the tree to wood conversion. Note that this last step can be hand crafted already when researching bobs greenhouse for semi automation. So this requires a grand total of 50 + 20 + 50 automation science packs, and require no bebs (as intended).

Capture.PNG (7.55 MiB) Viewed 6817 times

Maybe I am missing something? (Except from the wrong ratios in the picture)

[yzorr]

...
I'll look some more; while I'm looking, did the team consider these changes w/r/t breadcrumbing?

Thanks!

I know I did change the way the greenhouse operates, BUT I also did make sure that BOTH greenhouse cycles (with and without fertilizer) are still in there. In 0.17 this was just bobs recipe as
wood -> seedling -> wood + more wood
And now, in 0.18 I just added 1 extra step to the process, as a pre-integration in the arboretums:
wood -> seedling -> tree -> wood + more wood

If you would lay both recipes together (0.17 and 0.18), you'll see that the ratio is still the same:
2 wood -> 10 seed -> 15 wood
2 wood -> 10 seeds -> 3 trees -> 15 wood

When you only research the greenhouse, converting the trees into the wood can only happen manualy, so you can still manualy come in, and craft a full chest, ready for it to cycle through again. If you research the first stage of arboretums, you get the 1st tier of sawing, which does require the saw (aka iron plate). So there is a small cost in order to automate the full process, but I think that's part of early game, as you cannot have the best right away. At least I added in the option to convert the trees to wood manualy so you can keep your early game power running without the need of any iron.

So I think the increased complexity is minimal, and with some small manual labor early game it's still the same as it was before. Don't you think?

I disagree, and strongly!

Imagine explaining the game and how to build solutions to a new player....

I think of basic electronic boards (bebs) as the pinnacle of the initial base that enables several important facilities such as flare stacks, clarifying pools, and so on. That is what a new player is building towards. Bebs. The new player does not have bebs. It is a dream for them to arrive @bebs, particularly once they figure out what bebs signify. It's a really cool milestone!

So placing wood behind bebs is harsh. Meaning: You do not automate wood before bebs, and until then you are the factory that provides the wood.

Arbs locks wood behind bebs, correct? If so, I don't think that's enough of a: wow! for an unlock.

You do not need any arboretums for the initial automation (only the research!)? In the screenshot below is the first fully automated wood production. It consists out of seed extractors on the top row to convert wood to seeds (where there was a bug in a previous version, requiring bebs, but that is fixed, now it requires only basic circuit boards (bcbs), as mensioned in this post. The second row are the famous greenhouses to convert seeds into trees, and then some assembling machines to convert the trees to wood.

In order for this setup to work you need to research "Garden Processing" for the seed extractor, "Greenhouse" for bobs greenhouse + recipes and finally "Tree Arboretum 1& for the tree to wood conversion. Note that this last step can be hand crafted already when researching bobs greenhouse for semi automation. So this requires a grand total of 50 + 20 + 50 automation science packs, and require no bebs (as intended).

Capture.PNG

Maybe I am missing something? (Except from the wrong ratios in the picture)

Let me take a hard look at this tomorrow morning. I'll rebuild early game from start through hopefully chem from ground zero for the first time for 0.18. (I've done it umpteen times for 0.17 while writing the guide)

Thanks again for all your hard work!

[valneq]

Maybe I am missing something? (Except from the wrong ratios in the picture)

Yeah, the ratios are off, but does not matter for your argument. You are perfectly right. In the game that I am currently experimenting with 0.18 (where I also cross-checked the garden thing) I do have wood fully automated and have not yet crafted a single BEB, that's the next big thing on my to-do list

[yzorr]

I just finished playing through BEBs in 0.18. Love the changes -- really fun!

Feedback in-depth:

* Solder from tin + lead ingot: You would have LOLed. I thunked down my typical direct smelt stone furnaces for Bob+Ruby, ran them at the block that would have produced solder from solder plate+resin, yelled: BEB me! And AB whispered back: no. Good times.

* Solder from tin + lead ingot, pt2: Great breadcrumbing. For veterans, trivial, probably time neutral. For noobs, learn something about ingots and oxygen and yet more unwanted gases and ingot-induction-cast.

* Rubyte produces Manganese instead of Nickel: Love. Best change ever. I will never try to stone furnace crushed ruby with this change in place.

* More complicated wood, steel for seed extractor: I always built steel post-bebs because bebs make the steel chain clean (no water input, no slag output) and I didn't need steel until beb enables other tech. This moves steel up to pre-red. I like it. It's a reasonably-sized stair step up in complexity in terms of material creation, and reaffirms that the factory is forged from tradeoffs.

* More complicated wood, two interacting cycles (up from one cycle that can be ignored as yay-we-win with no undesirables): I've gone from thinking Helmod is the worst to using Helmod for everything. Despite living in Helmod, cycles are still not trivial to discover and design. I understand that the hobbybuilder experience is not an AngelBob priority; I also think that folks need eased into plastic, and that wood should breadcrumb plastic. I'll build plastic next, but if it's from multiphase oil and I'm not surprised, plastic may be easier. Plastic needs more inputs, but that's comparatively easier IMO than dealing with two cycles. Wood should be easier than plastic; I am not convinced that it is.

I'm having a lot of fun with my first 0.18 playthrough! I do have an odd priority, in that I'm trying to open up the AB experience by providing a descriptive (not proscriptive/blueprint-based) structure.

[danyax]

Would it be possible to remove remaining two recipes (Guncotton and Petroleum Jelly) from Bob materials to other tabs and get rid of entire tab? They look so lone.

[lovely_santa]

I just finished playing through BEBs in 0.18. Love the changes -- really fun!

Feedback in-depth:

* Solder from tin + lead ingot: You would have LOLed. I thunked down my typical direct smelt stone furnaces for Bob+Ruby, ran them at the block that would have produced solder from solder plate+resin, yelled: BEB me! And AB whispered back: no. Good times.

* Solder from tin + lead ingot, pt2: Great breadcrumbing. For veterans, trivial, probably time neutral. For noobs, learn something about ingots and oxygen and yet more unwanted gases and ingot-induction-cast.

As mensioned a bit back in this forum, due to the need of oxygen for the lead ingots, I will re-introduce the solder plate (act as the ingot), which you would then put in the induction furnace to obtain molten solder. Making the recipe of lead and tin ingots a first improvement, utilizing a full smelting chain. This will act as a way of not needing oxygen and even ease in the metalurgy smelting.

* Rubyte produces Manganese instead of Nickel: Love. Best change ever. I will never try to stone furnace crushed ruby with this change in place.

I am reworking the refining as this was not intended, like it changed more than only that recipe. But since removing the nickel from crushed rubyte is requisted a lot, I am considering of leaving it there. However, this reduces the uses of ferrous ores... Still not sure what I want to do with it. The new recipes that are coming with the next release are mentioned in an earlier post of mine.

* More complicated wood, steel for seed extractor: I always built steel post-bebs because bebs make the steel chain clean (no water input, no slag output) and I didn't need steel until beb enables other tech. This moves steel up to pre-red. I like it. It's a reasonably-sized stair step up in complexity in terms of material creation, and reaffirms that the factory is forged from tradeoffs.

I still try to limit the use of early game steel to buildings only, but on the other hand I want to utilize the early game steel recipe. I think it's a nice trade off in between?

* More complicated wood, two interacting cycles (up from one cycle that can be ignored as yay-we-win with no undesirables): I've gone from thinking Helmod is the worst to using Helmod for everything. Despite living in Helmod, cycles are still not trivial to discover and design. I understand that the hobbybuilder experience is not an AngelBob priority; I also think that folks need eased into plastic, and that wood should breadcrumb plastic. I'll build plastic next, but if it's from multiphase oil and I'm not surprised, plastic may be easier. Plastic needs more inputs, but that's comparatively easier IMO than dealing with two cycles. Wood should be easier than plastic; I am not convinced that it is.

There are many ways of automating wood tho, the raw wood that you need, yes, that is not the easiest cycle. I see a lot of people going for the green algae way of creating fiber, and I guess once the temperate garden issue is resolved, they might even consider starting farming. There is no one way, and yes the cycles aren't very clear, but the point is that you can make your own cycles as you go, figure the cycles out, which is a nice part of the game.

Would it be possible to remove remaining two recipes (Guncotton and Petroleum Jelly) from Bob materials to other tabs and get rid of entire tab? They look so lone.

I guess you are not playing with angels exploration? Angels exploration is taking care of the bob warfare, including the guncotten and petro jelly. They should move into bobs warfare tab. There are still some errors in it, but I cannot fix everything simultanious

[mrvn]

Finaly for who is still reading my message Me and Timbo were in a twitch stream and got some feedback about mentioning our names on the mods themselves, in order to get some recognition for the work that we do. We both thought that we don't need our names next to Angels name as author. I suggested instead to make it "Arch666Angel & community team" or something, but even that is not needed (for me at least). What would most of you suggest? The support that I see here on the forums and other places that I talk to people is enough for me.

If you are writing the code then put yourself into the copyright stanzas. If there is an authors file then add yourself there too. Ignoring all you said about recognition and such this is a legal thing too and important. You are copyright holders and authors of at least parts of the code and should be listed as such.

[yzorr]

One change that I can't find a 0.18 changelog entry for (for angel, bob, or anyone else) is splitting barrels into barrels, canisters, and bottles.

My searchfu may be weak; or, perhaps there is a mod setting somewhere that was turned one way for 0.17 and the other way for 0.18.

Is this an intentional change, or is something odd going on with just my game? Thanks!

[coderpatsy]

One change that I can't find a 0.18 changelog entry for (for angel, bob, or anyone else) is splitting barrels into barrels, canisters, and bottles.

Going by the Angel's Refining changelog, it was added the first v0.18 update (mod version 0.11.0):

- If bobs mods are activated, integrate gas bottles and canisters to auto-barreling (moved from PCPRedux and improved)

[yzorr]

One change that I can't find a 0.18 changelog entry for (for angel, bob, or anyone else) is splitting barrels into barrels, canisters, and bottles.

Going by the Angel's Refining changelog, it was added the first v0.18 update (mod version 0.11.0):

- If bobs mods are activated, integrate gas bottles and canisters to auto-barreling (moved from PCPRedux and improved)

Sure enough, there it is. Thanks, coderpatsy! Intentional. I can't a better way of self-discovering in the future than google "site:mods.factorio.com canisters angel", and perhaps tacking on "bob" if the first query does not yield results. Is there one?

I haven't found background context/discussion around this using google "site:forums.factorio.com canisters angel"; this is equivalent to the mod forum search that I originally used. I did see that we went from barrels/bottles/canisters to just barrels a ways back. Is there a different search that I should use, a discord that I should be looking at, etc? I don't want to bore folks with feedback around talking points that have already been considered.

Thanks!

[yzorr]

But as long as we're here, let me offer feedback on the container change from barrels -> barrels/bottles/canisters.

Away from interface factories that change input container Xs to output container Ys, the change is neutral in complexity. If you can correctly mediate stock levels of one container factory-wide, then you can deal with three containers factory-wide. It's a bit more realistic, and it puts on a bit more pressure to get it right before pressing "play". (proud member of badly-considered well-that-plan-sucked 1M beacon barrel club here)

This does change building interface factories. If you're at an interface factory, you no longer consider if input X1..XN barrels is less than/equal to/greater than output Y1..YN barrels and build a different widget for each case. Instead, you turn around input containers X in direction X, and request output containers Y in direction Y. That's the simplest barreling widget to build. Building widgets that "promote" containers isn't a good move. So the layout is simpler, and offers a shallower optimization tree.

I'm in favor of deeper optimization trees. Ummm, if you could swap from container X to Y at a barreling pump with material input and no speed hit, then it might work out, but a widget that eats plastic (or really any other material) isn't going to be built. Tech unlock? It could be a green or space tech unlock.

[StormTAG]

Am I the only one who tries to get into farming and tree production and quickly runs out of mud? I've started considering just making a loop of washers to churn out mud. I need mud for soil as well as all of the swamp farming. Would it be possible to make a recipe that just takes the mud water from the pump and directly makes it into mud? This would save a lot of space over having a chain of washers that are just washing their water to output mud. Creating the recipes for this myself would be fairly trivial of course but if I'm missing something or overstating the problem, then I'd like to know.

I also seem to have an excess of clay. I've always thought it would be neat to have an alternative way to smelt ingots using a disposable crucible or something. Or even have an alternative 2nd tier pipe that uses clay. My clay washers are usually sitting quite dormant as I don't usually need a huge ton of clay bricks.

In regards to all the discussion of the garden spawns, would it make sense to introduce another, simpler spawnable that just gives some of the different kinds of crops? You would still need gardens for research but that way you could get the crops going quickly by passing them through the seed extractor. These could even be spawned similarly to the ores, creating fields of wild crops.

[WizardNekross]

Hey guys! Can i just make a double question ? [here and in bob forums section]

How I can turn back chemical plants smoke with all that colorful and detailed fractions??? That's a question...

So, why i am asking about it here?

BecauZe i found some chemical plant improvments in Bob_assembly_machines [but it is all my thoughts]...

Now, in the production of any substance with chemical plant, smoke of the same color comes out of the pipes. It looks worse than in the original version of the game.

Please, help me to understand what s wrong here...
Angel&Bob mods used:

factorio_chemical_smoke_fail#1.gif (3.81 MiB) Viewed 6478 times

Original game used:

factorio_0.18.4_vaniLLa_smoke_2.gif (3.51 MiB) Viewed 6478 times

Thank you! And have a good day!

[lovely_santa]

But as long as we're here, let me offer feedback on the container change from barrels -> barrels/bottles/canisters.

Away from interface factories that change input container Xs to output container Ys, the change is neutral in complexity. If you can correctly mediate stock levels of one container factory-wide, then you can deal with three containers factory-wide. It's a bit more realistic, and it puts on a bit more pressure to get it right before pressing "play". (proud member of badly-considered well-that-plan-sucked 1M beacon barrel club here)

This does change building interface factories. If you're at an interface factory, you no longer consider if input X1..XN barrels is less than/equal to/greater than output Y1..YN barrels and build a different widget for each case. Instead, you turn around input containers X in direction X, and request output containers Y in direction Y. That's the simplest barreling widget to build. Building widgets that "promote" containers isn't a good move. So the layout is simpler, and offers a shallower optimization tree.

I'm in favor of deeper optimization trees. Ummm, if you could swap from container X to Y at a barreling pump with material input and no speed hit, then it might work out, but a widget that eats plastic (or really any other material) isn't going to be built. Tech unlock? It could be a green or space tech unlock.

The main reason was that the fluids/barreling where too mixed up, really a pain if you're looking for a signal/barreling recipe. We took 2 measures, the first one is introducing the different types of barrels, which almost take no additional resources (1/5th of a plastic plate and 1/5th of a steel bar respectively). The other measure was to organize the fluids in multiple groups, the same groups you can find the recipes in. While coding I already got mayor feedback about finding recipes/items again in the barreling tab. I am debating of introducing recycle recipes so you can convert the 'special barrels' back into regular barrels. But I'm not sure yet...

Am I the only one who tries to get into farming and tree production and quickly runs out of mud? I've started considering just making a loop of washers to churn out mud. I need mud for soil as well as all of the swamp farming. Would it be possible to make a recipe that just takes the mud water from the pump and directly makes it into mud? This would save a lot of space over having a chain of washers that are just washing their water to output mud. Creating the recipes for this myself would be fairly trivial of course but if I'm missing something or overstating the problem, then I'd like to know.

It is the only way to create mud, yes. On the other hand, when diving deep into petrochem, you'll need a lot of saline water, which can create all the mud you need (instead of using the salination plant recipe).

I also seem to have an excess of clay. I've always thought it would be neat to have an alternative way to smelt ingots using a disposable crucible or something. Or even have an alternative 2nd tier pipe that uses clay. My clay washers are usually sitting quite dormant as I don't usually need a huge ton of clay bricks.

The only use for clay is clay brick, which you can also use as a walkway (like stone and concrete). In the development of angels industries, the componets use a lot of those bricks as well, which will result in a higher use of your clay. Either way, it's not like you're getting loads of clay as some byproduct, you can just produce what you need, even if this doesn't require a lot of washing setups.

In regards to all the discussion of the garden spawns, would it make sense to introduce another, simpler spawnable that just gives some of the different kinds of crops? You would still need gardens for research but that way you could get the crops going quickly by passing them through the seed extractor. These could even be spawned similarly to the ores, creating fields of wild crops.

I don't want to introduce yet another spawnable item that you have to look for... What might be an idea, is that when you mine a garden, that you get a chance of obtaining some seeds already, like as it was already part of garden...

...
Now, in the production of any substance with chemical plant, smoke of the same color comes out of the pipes. It looks worse than in the original version of the game.
...

Same answer as I replied in the bug report thread. At some point... First getting the 0.18 version fully functional.

[kenlon]

* Rubyte produces Manganese instead of Nickel: Love. Best change ever. I will never try to stone furnace crushed ruby with this change in place.

I am reworking the refining as this was not intended, like it changed more than only that recipe. But since removing the nickel from crushed rubyte is requisted a lot, I am considering of leaving it there. However, this reduces the uses of ferrous ores... Still not sure what I want to do with it. The new recipes that are coming with the next release are mentioned in an earlier post of mine.

Personally, I am deeply unenthused about losing access to nickel early on in exchange for an ore that only serves to increase yields on Iron/Steel, but I primarily play Seablock and may not be properly representative of the playerbase as a whole. (I know manganese acts as an extender on a whole pile of other metals as well, but Iron/Steel are the ones available at the red+green science level.)

[brysamo]

* Rubyte produces Manganese instead of Nickel: Love. Best change ever. I will never try to stone furnace crushed ruby with this change in place.

I am reworking the refining as this was not intended, like it changed more than only that recipe. But since removing the nickel from crushed rubyte is requisted a lot, I am considering of leaving it there. However, this reduces the uses of ferrous ores... Still not sure what I want to do with it. The new recipes that are coming with the next release are mentioned in an earlier post of mine.

Wait, you're going to be changing the sorting recipes again? Can you please link to this earlier post you mentioned. I remember in your reply to me that you would be keeping them as is...

[lovely_santa]

* Rubyte produces Manganese instead of Nickel: Love. Best change ever. I will never try to stone furnace crushed ruby with this change in place.

I am reworking the refining as this was not intended, like it changed more than only that recipe. But since removing the nickel from crushed rubyte is requisted a lot, I am considering of leaving it there. However, this reduces the uses of ferrous ores... Still not sure what I want to do with it. The new recipes that are coming with the next release are mentioned in an earlier post of mine.

Personally, I am deeply unenthused about losing access to nickel early on in exchange for an ore that only serves to increase yields on Iron/Steel, but I primarily play Seablock and may not be properly representative of the playerbase as a whole. (I know manganese acts as an extender on a whole pile of other metals as well, but Iron/Steel are the ones available at the red+green science level.)

When playing regular bob angels (no seablock), you'll need a lot of iron versus copper early game, the specific amount depends on the amount of belts you use mainly, but it's not uncommon to have 2 or more warehouse stocked fully with copper only, and that is only from processing saphirite (which already give more iron than copper).

By allowing access to manganese, you can improve the iron smelting early game to compensate for the higher need of iron. This will decrease the amount of copper you have to stock pile, and indirectly reduce the amount of crushed stone you have to convert to stone/landfill/stockpile as you'll need less crushing early game.

Are there any specific reasons why you need nickel that early in the game? As I recall you need the lead, and start stockpiling the nickel as you don't use it anyway at that point in the game. The first big use is red belts, which is green science anyway, where you unlock nickel then by chunk processing. But I can see how this is a duplicate of the crushed ferrous ore, to increase your production of iron. Hence why I am still not sure if I want nickel or manganese on the crushed rubyte... I am still debating...

...
Wait, you're going to be changing the sorting recipes again? Can you please link to this earlier post you mentioned. I remember in your reply to me that you would be keeping them as is...

Yes I did mention it in this reply, at which point I was already started on the process of improving the system to prevent those unintended changes in the future:

I am redoing the sorting recipes, so they will be the same as they where in 0.17:

• Saphirite -> Iron, Copper, silicon, Nickel, Titanium and Zinc
• Jivolite -> Iron, Copper, Aluminium, Zinc, Silver, Tungsten
• Stiratite -> Copper, Iron, Cobalt, Tin, Uranium, Aluminium
• Crotinnium -> Copper, Iron, Lead, Silver, Gold, Titanium
• Rubyte -> Lead, Nickel, Aluminium, Gold, Tungsten
• Bobmonium -> Tin, Silicon, Cobalt, Zinc, Aluminium, Uranium
• Ferrous -> Iron, Manganese, Nickel, Cobalt, Chrome
• Cupric -> Copper, Silicon, Silver, Gold, Platinum

Crystallizing recipes will be:

• Iron/Copper
• Lead/Tin
• Silicon/Silver
• Gold/Nickel
• Zinc/Titanium
• Aluminium/Manganese
• Chrome/Platinum
• Cobalt/Tungsten
• Uranium/Fluorite/Thorium

They did change (unintended) in the 0.18.0 release when updating from 0.17. We only noticed the one change as pezzawinkle mentioned. After a while we received more reports, at which point I already decided to redo the whole system (as it was becoming convoluted) and revert it as it was in 0.17, as intended.

Since we're on the topic of changing it (again, and sorry, I know this means a (partial) rebuild again), I am open to changes to improve the refining.

[valneq]

Wait … so for a while the only way to get Thorium in AngelBob will be to crystallize?

I know that MadClown's adds more Thorium recipies. While I do like that, I am still not sure whether I like most of MadClown's other changes to AngelBob.