Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

[Koub]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Have a base powered by nuclear with bots supplying nuclear cells to the reactors.
Add some bots.
Get a brownout.
Get steamrolled by the biters.
Start a new base.

[viveks711]

If you are going to nerf bots, would there be any issue in limiting the number of bots that can access a smart chest at the same time?

[Engimage]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Image an energy-issue, some bots move slower... now even more bots have to become active and it gets worse...

Thats how it is in a real life. You have to monitor this hard and design accordingly. Just throwing numbers in will not work.
Also there will be some hard cap on consuption not to make this go rediculously high but will still be a real hit to effectiveness and energy consumption.

[Engimage]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Have a base powered by nuclear with bots supplying nuclear cells to the reactors.
Add some bots.
Get a brownout.
Get steamrolled by the biters.
Start a new base.

That can be a real reason to use belts for power-critical parts of a factory if you do not want to monitor power levels.

[bobucles]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Deconstruct a chest and your entire everything collapses.
Link two networks together and everything collapses.
Modular bot bases absolutely don't care because they already utilize super efficient pocket networks.

Yeah. It's a bad idea. It doesn't fix what it is supposed to fix and makes a pile of issues where everything is already fine.

[<NO_NAME>]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Have a base powered by nuclear with bots supplying nuclear cells to the reactors.
Add some bots.
Get a brownout.
Get steamrolled by the biters.
Start a new base.

Only N00Bs don't have any backup power supply.

[golfmiketango]

The emptiest barrels have the loudest sound or how to obtain a Pareto efficient solution while the ghosts of past errors haunt you in your dreams?

Just need to dream-right-click those ghosts and they're gone, problem solved

[Noobc0re]

I now do definitely agree that bots need a nerf.

Could something be done similar to how the factories work?

Where you start with tier 1 bots that can lift single ingredient items. Tier 2 bots that can lift two ingredient items and anything more complex than that would have to go on a belt?

Or

Could you do something to restrict logistic bot motion? Maybe have it so that they can only move things from one roboport to another and to get things to and from the roboport you have to use belts. This way you'd have to set up logistic bot lanes but you would still get the benefit of flight.

Or

Could the bots be replaced? Maybe instead of a bunch of small ones you have something more akin to a transport heli-drone that functions like a flying train cart. It goes from one station to the other and waits to be loaded/unloaded or whatever the player needs. Similar to how a train schedule works.

Another approach would be to look at why belts are so rough to buff. From the sounds of it, it seems like the inserters are a big obstacle.

So could you make a machine, with inventory slots. that is placed on the end of a belt that packs/unloads the belt at full compression, you'd have tiers of machines to match the belts. This way you could alter the belts without having to worry about the inserters being able to keep up. Inserters would still have a job moving things to and from various machines.

[ske]

...if the player still doens't understand, burn them to ashes in cleansing fire to get rid of the heresy.

You made my day!

Or you could also ask yourself why is there so much noise with people asking to nerf bots in every imaginable way now that the devs have opened the pandora box, but almost no bot balancing issues were reported before (and I could find only one mod that did nerf the logibots that existed before this shitstorm, whereas there are literally dozens that BUFF bots in any possible way since months or years).

I wonder what would have happened if the devs had swapped bots and belts in their 224&225 FFF. Would have people overwhelmed us with ideas to nerf belts ?

Mods are supposed to relax restrictions and extend the game. In order for them to be able to do that you first have to place restrictions. In order to be fun it need to be the right restrictions. Else you would be given a compiler and a handful of loose bits like in that game called Linux. Many people don't use bots too much or have no need to complain about it. Many people like bots the way they are. There is nothing wrong with that. We can easily make a mod for them to enjoy their 100-stack lightspeed teleporting pollution cleaning bots. Nothing wrong with that. The fight is not about who likes bots it's about what defines the base game as the developers want it to be. Make it easier to use mods without thinking about it and boom, done. Let the masses decide for themselves how they want to play their modded games. Let the devs make a game that is balanced and challenging how they want factorio to be seen in ten years. It needs a master to make a masterpiece.

[ske]

One more thought about harshly limiting bots. It is already implemented we just didn't see it. Apply the "follower robot count" thing to logistic bots, too. There isn't really a difference between flying bots and flying bots. Why should one be limited and the other one unlimited? Add infinite research to the count and voila, done. In order to increase the number of bots in a reasonable time you need a belt factory in order to supply the necessary science.

[roman566]

What's the point of nerf when people who use bots will just mod the game and the people who don't use them will still continue not using them?

[Engimage]

Make bots consume greater amounts of energy based on active bots number in the network.

Deconstruct a chest and your entire everything collapses.
Link two networks together and everything collapses.
Modular bot bases absolutely don't care because they already utilize super efficient pocket networks.

Yeah. It's a bad idea. It doesn't fix what it is supposed to fix and makes a pile of issues where everything is already fine.

Nothing will collapse. Bots do not use the power in flight. They do so while charging on a roboport and the later has limited number of charge points and power output. You also have limited number of roboports so power consumption will not spike you to death but surely there will be quite a charge queue. But I see nothing bad in it as it is well deserved in this case.

Also I did not say these changes should touch construction bots and your example is exactly about it.
I did say already that no nerfs should be done to construction bots as obviously they are more about convenience and not logistic competition we are talking about here

[ske]

What's the point of nerf when people who use bots will just mod the game and the people who don't use them will still continue not using them?

They should have their place in the big picture and not be the big picture.

[rantingrodent]

Bots just need some kind of real upkeep cost. That's it. Energy capacity currently controls bot capacity and it's an easy one time cost to increase it. Either have bots consume fuel or require their Flying Robot Frames to be replaced periodically. This allows them to continue performing at their current level and the advantage of belts becomes their lack of upkeep. Maintaining a robot megabase will continue to be 100% possible, but doing so will substantially increase the need to find and exploit new resource patches.

One thing I like about replacing bot frames is that bot megabases already need to have a solid production line for flying robot frames and this upkeep cost really just increases the necessary throughput of that existing pipeline.

[Blue_Lucario]

How about you make a Steam achievement for launching a rocket without using any requester chests.

Just to give people an incentive to try it!

[Engimage]

How about you make a Steam achievement for launching a rocket without using any requester chests.

Just to give people an incentive to try it!

There is such achievement already called "Logistic Embargo"

[Tricorius]

How about you make a Steam achievement for launching a rocket without using any requester chests.

Just to give people an incentive to try it!

Already is one. And it really isn’t that hard to get. Current belt mechanics are fine for launching a rocket and therefore “finishing the game”.

I’ve done it several times, mostly because logistics bots are kinda useless (at least super painfully slow) before you get into space tech. I usually bee-line toward construction bots, and wait until I’ve launched a rocket to expand to logistics.

[MicFac]

I generally like the ideas and conclusions you came to. However, I think UPS needs to get improved as nerfing bots to belt level would mean that the highest throughput you could get would be at belt level. So when you try to build Megabases or Gigabases that you dont perfectly optimize with belts you get bad performance which would lead to having to use bots again, just more of them.

[vampiricdust]

I think what people mean by saying that bots are breaking the game, and why devs want to nerf them, is that bots weren't meant to be an upgrade from belts. They were meant to complement belts, just like trains complement belts in cases where using belts would be esoteric (or just make life easier and more pleasant). Of course the lategame where belts are redundant is also a valid game mode, as shown by all the people who use bots to build their great factories. It's just not something the devs envisioned, and I think they have their right to make the game they want to make.

Maybe devs can keep the "old" bots as a separate game mode, and rework them as they see fit for the main game.

There is zero reasoning to say they break the game, they just change the way you think about your base. They do compliment belts and lot of people use bots to get better compression on belts at train stations. They have the right to make the game they want, you're being incredibly hyperbolic. I just fundamentally don't agree they break the game or that they're imbalanced. If this was several versions ago, I would agree they need cost changes or performance reductions. The devs chose mostly cost reductions and cut their capacity. Now, their cost is in line to their performance relative to belts. There's really no need to nerf them, but if they do, their cost needs reduced as well to match their relative performance.

We might as well argue the artillery train breaks the game because it does more dps than the pistol and is easier because it fires automatically, removing the challenge of clearing biter bases. So let's nerf shells to match the dps of the pistol.

[Pascali]

Yes, the artillery train is op, to. Bots play for the user, and artillery, too. Let some fun-playing parts left for the user.