Friday Facts #401 - New terrain, new planet

[MeduSalem]

Ah nice.

I am someone who always sets tree density to max. So I will appreciate some of the forest paths. ^^

But I am also with some of the other people saying that what the maps lack most is some shallow-water rivers and streams flowing in the canyons and connecting some of the lakes. Especially if some break through the cliffs and have a waterfall or something. That is what really gives it the edge to make it feel more like there actually is an elevation. Don't know if something can be done about that.

[icksa]

Created an account just for this. What an incredible post. These changes will clear many of the early game/exploration annoyances and will make it much easier for new players to get started. The new map generation looks beautiful too. Well done!

[FuryoftheStars]

PS and sort of OT - it's always seemed odd to me that The Engineer can build railways all over the map, blowing up entire cliffs as he goes, but he can't dig canals. I understand that this would be OP in the early game: just build Teotihuacán and forget about the biters, but I miss canal-building, especially with the Cargo Ships mod. Maybe nuclear-explosion canal building in the late game is a possibility? I'm old enough to remember Plowshare! https://st.llnl.gov/news/look-back/plowshare-program

I mean, I think adding a water placement feature where all we can do is shallow water is at least good. For vanilla, I'm not sure we'd need more than that (though this could potentially trivialize nuclear placements ), and if something else made more sense for a mod, then the mod can add that feature.

---------------------------------------------------------

Great stuff! These shots look far more atmospheric.

There is something I want to put forward to you, while you are working on planets and map generation: The availability of used map generation functions to mods.

For explanation a use case for version 1.1: Let's say I want to make a mod, that fleshes out filling water tiles. And the mod mechanic should be, that a water tile can not be landfilled by just one piece of landfill but requires multiple pieces, depending on what the height value for a given water tile is. I know, currently at chunk generation a terrain elevation function is used. Based on values of that function coast lines and cliffs are generated. And to achive the mod mechanic, I would like to be able to access the vanilla terrain elevation function. Not just at junk generation time but also later on. If a water tile is landfilled I would calculate the height value there, see if it is enough and if not make an entry in a custom table which stores the new height value.

That is just one use case. I am sure modders would create all sorts of great stuff if the functions you use to create the game world would be accessible by mods - also during game time.

Thanks for considering!

This would be nice. I think the best we can do now is either having the water tiles step through their stages (deep -> regular -> shallow -> landfilled), or maybe even assign some arbitrary values to the different water tiles and then use a table to track and step through them (though this would be mostly invisible to the player).

---------------------------------------------------------

I not only agree with this, but I also hope it doesn't get completely removed.

Add another slider! Something like "dead ends" which is normally 0% (does exactly as this FFF describes) but you can tune it up to 100% and then it intentionally finds paths and breaks them. 10-20% would probably be nice (as 100% could deadlock you if not careful).

Honestly, I think that 10-20% value would be perfect as a default.

---------------------------------------------------------

I'm not sure I grok the underlying reason why Nauvis (or any other planet) would have "evolved" for navigability.

From in the FFF:
"Forest trails would be the result of animal movement"

In this case, animals = biters, and as we already know, biters already clear trees (and rocks) that are in the way of their path finding. But... yeah, that really only applies to trees, and I could still see paths being blocked from other things or trees regrowing on no longer traveled paths, etc.

[Shuisman]

This all looks fantastic. I love the hinting at more adjustable parameters in the post.
My wish would be that the map generator had some presets like those in Age of empires e.g.: "Lakes", "Archipelago", "Islands", "Desert", "Serengeti", etc…

[Kinson25]

I never use cars because you can rarely go very far before you have to get out and run around or chop your way through.
I can't wait to be able to use cars reliably! This is amazing.

[mrzorn]

Just read the last FFF. Great stuff - the hype train grows longer and stronger every FFF

But i have the following question:

Are cliffs on nauvis along the coastline possible / naturally occouring?

I think some "White Cliffs of Dover" type cliffs alongthe water would be great not only for looks but also very useful in terms of defensive means.

[ArEyeses]

Forest trails would be the result of animal movement

This makes me think biters should mostly follow these paths when pathfinding
I think there's already a system where they follow previous biter trails (to save performance when pathfinding) so maybe these forest trails could be an extension of that
It would also mean they don't get stuck in forests

[Rebmes]

Earendel is officially my hero. ^^

[Acacel]

Great change to the map. It was worth every single hour of work.
I like the idea of the new cliffs, but for the forest path i´m not sure. For the game it is really good, the biters now find a way through to our base. As a player that likes the Deathworld setting im not sure if i like it... No hiding in the biggest forest, for a few extra minutes, but i think that was the plan...

[TOGoS]

Oh this makes me very happy. The purpose of the new programmable noise system was to allow exactly these sorts of things. We just needed someone with a bit of patience to put it all together! I mean, the ridge function is in there for exactly the purpose that you put it to. (When I first mentioned that approach it got a lot of "that map looks stupid" responses because people didn't realize it was just a proof-of-concept. Maybe I should have used more false colors.)

That's pretty funny about how some trees were never placed. As you say it's a tricky problem to solve. Everyone who works on terrain generation ends up building a system to help them visualize the N-dimensional space. For a long time everything was based around an SVG of some "rectangles" (similar to the one shown in fff-282) that I think Kuba had made at some point. Since I came from a web-dev background, my take was TFMPM

I'm glad the cliffs are getting some attention! I think you're right that they are just kind of a nuisance in 1.0, and the ridge-based passable paths system looks like it should achieve what I was trying to with the 0.16 terrain, which I thought was interesting to drive around on, but got toned down because folks thought it was too swampy.

I still think there should be big impassable mountain ranges. Maybe that'll happen on a different planet.

River-like sections that lead to canyons, peninsulas guarded by cliffs, and some nice new islands.

An extra set of lines for forest trails was added to the set of paths too.

Funnily enough, I recall thinking about this as I was walking some forest trails in that giant park in the south part of Prague. (Why didn't you do it, then? You might ask. I think I was just stretched too thin playing both Earendel and Genhis while also working another job to really put the system to use. My hope was that someone else would, someday. And you have. )

I'm curious how the user-facing 'new map' settings are going to work when there's multiple planets.

[Agamemnon]

Finally some love for alien worldbuilding!

I can already see new tactical applications on the horizon... It would be so nice, if terrain gets even more attention. Like giving (small) range bonuses to buildings (artillery ) on cliffs over things below (also: grenades hurled over the edge)... Other Idea I just had: Even if terrain height is all just an illusion and we're still looking at flat sprites - Please consider adding code to at least roughly approximate blind spots in weapon ranges. Example: Building a turret on top of a cliff may give it extra range, but it would not have LOF to biters standing directly below the cliff.
(If you're mean, make it that spitters have an arc, so they can shoot over the edge as long as they reach the safe zone) <- just an addendum - I think that 1.1 combat is very undercomplex and I would LOVE to see it getting just a little more depth in a natural, intuitively understandable way.

PS: Please fix the collision boxes of the 45° cliffs.

[Bi0nicM4n]

The changes look very promising. I'm certainly gonna play around with new cliffs when the update happens

[Tertius]

In a comment to some earlier FFF I asked if there would be also some improvement to Nauvis to profit from engine enhancements made for the expansion. Many other games leave the original game completely untouched, so it becomes looking bland in comparison to the graphics detail of the expansion. And now here it is the graphics and general environment enhancement for Nauvis. Many thanks for that! This definitely increases the quality of the gameplay, even if it doesn't add active components such as new machines. It's difficult to explain why, but it makes the whole game feel more solid.

[Serenity]

The islands type map could be nice as an optional preset. There are people looking for that kind of stuff. For example to use with the Cargo Ships mod. And the existing island map is just one larger island.

[IronCartographer]

Write me down as cheering the whole way though. There's some weirdness with the 'marbling' effect on extreme settings (looking simultaneously too small-scale and large-scale at the same time in a way I'm not sure how to put into words properly), but this is very impressive.

Leaving the old terrain as an option to support the 1.0/1.1 mapgen experience for those who might want it? Very considerate.

I love the addition of a slider for starting area humidity since it affects the early game biter difficulty so much. I think I remember having that idea as a way to help new players at one point, and will enjoy seeing it in action!

[shunsicker1]

" Yes, this is a fertile land, and we will thrive. We will rule over all this land, and we will call it... "This Land" "Nauvis". "


hahahahaha... thank you Earendel. I needed that reference. LOL. #BrowncoatsRiseUp!!!

[floven1]

Finally some love for alien worldbuilding!

I can already see new tactical applications on the horizon... It would be so nice, if terrain gets even more attention. Like giving (small) range bonuses to buildings (artillery ) on cliffs over things below (also: grenades hurled over the edge)... Other Idea I just had: Even if terrain height is all just an illusion and we're still looking at flat sprites - Please consider adding code to at least roughly approximate blind spots in weapon ranges. Example: Building a turret on top of a cliff may give it extra range, but it would not have LOF to biters standing directly below the cliff.
(If you're mean, make it that spitters have an arc, so they can shoot over the edge as long as they reach the safe zone) <- just an addendum - I think that 1.1 combat is very undercomplex and I would LOVE to see it getting just a little more depth in a natural, intuitively understandable way.

PS: Please fix the collision boxes of the 45° cliffs.

I bet that we are going to get an FFF (or two/three/four) about combat improvements which will list a ton of new weapons, mechanics and enemies, I for one am very much looking forward to that and hope this ^ makes it in, would make cliffs so much more fun to play with, although I forsee many technical hurdles with this

[pleegwat]

Great stuff! These shots look far more atmospheric.

There is something I want to put forward to you, while you are working on planets and map generation: The availability of used map generation functions to mods.

For explanation a use case for version 1.1: Let's say I want to make a mod, that fleshes out filling water tiles. And the mod mechanic should be, that a water tile can not be landfilled by just one piece of landfill but requires multiple pieces, depending on what the height value for a given water tile is. I know, currently at chunk generation a terrain elevation function is used. Based on values of that function coast lines and cliffs are generated. And to achive the mod mechanic, I would like to be able to access the vanilla terrain elevation function. Not just at junk generation time but also later on. If a water tile is landfilled I would calculate the height value there, see if it is enough and if not make an entry in a custom table which stores the new height value.

That is just one use case. I am sure modders would create all sorts of great stuff if the functions you use to create the game world would be accessible by mods - also during game time.

Thanks for considering!

This would be nice. I think the best we can do now is either having the water tiles step through their stages (deep -> regular -> shallow -> landfilled), or maybe even assign some arbitrary values to the different water tiles and then use a table to track and step through them (though this would be mostly invisible to the player).

I do think such a progression may suffice, if you add some additional tiles for it. There doesn't need to be any visual difference between "deep water 7" and "deep water 6". And remember in 2.0 the tile limit goes up to 65k, so you will not run into that as quickly.

[Danjen]

One thing that feels like it's missing is rivers and coastlines. I was excited when I saw the band of water but that was a coincidence rather than a river system. I'd love to see a huge chunk of the map blocked off by what is effectively a small ocean, surrounded by sand tiles. Rivers would present another navigation challenge, but perhaps could just function as (mostly) walkable water tiles. Marshland could even exist if drainage was low. I think that already sort of exists anyways, you can get large areas of walkable water if you tweak some of the settings; adding some decoratives and calling it its own biome would be neat

[TOGoS]

There is something I want to put forward to you, while you are working on planets and map generation: The availability of used map generation functions to mods.

If I understand correctly, this is already possible. Mods can query the 'noise layers' for the surface at any time, using LuaSurface#calculate_tile_properties. For the water-filling example, one could treat any 'deep water' as being as deep as the elevation function indicates. Maybe assuming a certain depth for less-deep water in case it is there for reasons other than elevation (e.g. some mod letting you make ponds using grenades).

Any chance for a revamp of the design of cliffs itself? To be honest, I never got the feel of 3D / elevation with Factorio cliffs.

You're not alone. I think the trouble with Factorio's cliffs is that they are a reasonable size on the screen when zoomed in, but when zoomed out they look small and insignificant. This is one of the reasons (along with wanting proper mountain ranges a la old NES games) that I have always thought that there should be a tile-based alternative to cliffs that would allow wider sections to be rocky, impassable, semi-vertical, cliff-looking terrain.