Friday Facts #404 - Frustration not found

[gravityStar]

Please allow the RTS Tool to also control trains. My personal train, my artillery train, my big artillery train, my builder train, all the trains!

They announced "Remote Drive" for trains on the previous FFF. So no RTS Tool needed for that.
Also selecting a train and sending it to a temporary location already works on 1.1 which solves most of the problem already.

Yes! And I also want Remote Drive/Pilot for Spidertrons! Now, you will say, "You can already control Spidertrons with the RTS Tool. So no Remote Drive needed for that." I'm arguing for more, not less! I want to move, target and shoot with a Spidertron with the same controls as if I am in the Spidertron, but with remote control.

Why is the remote control for both Spidertrons and Trains so different? Shouldn't these things align more with each other?

Remote Drive has the advantage of taking control of the vehicle "as if you are there". The same control layout/button layout applies. The handling is the same as if the engineer is in the vehicle.

RTS tool has the advantage of giving executive instructions to a vehicle. You can use waypointing, go there, then there, then there. You can select groups of vehicles, and give groups of vehicles instructions. You can remember groups of vehicles and put them in your toolbar!

I want both of modes of remote control, for all the remote controllable vehicles!

[Betalord]

What about path finding for spidertrons? I think that is a much needed addition.

[FuryoftheStars]

Please allow the RTS Tool to also control trains. My personal train, my artillery train, my big artillery train, my builder train, all the trains!

They announced "Remote Drive" for trains on the previous FFF. So no RTS Tool needed for that.
Also selecting a train and sending it to a temporary location already works on 1.1 which solves most of the problem already.

Yes! And I also want Remote Drive/Pilot for Spidertrons! Now, you will say, "You can already control Spidertrons with the RTS Tool. So no Remote Drive needed for that." I'm arguing for more, not less! I want to move, target and shoot with a Spidertron with the same controls as if I am in the Spidertron, but with remote control.

Why is the remote control for both Spidertrons and Trains so different? Shouldn't these things align more with each other?

Remote Drive has the advantage of taking control of the vehicle "as if you are there". The same control layout/button layout applies. The handling is the same as if the engineer is in the vehicle.

RTS tool has the advantage of giving executive instructions to a vehicle. You can use waypointing, go there, then there, then there. You can select groups of vehicles, and give groups of vehicles instructions. You can remember groups of vehicles and put them in your toolbar!

I want both of modes of remote control, for all the remote controllable vehicles!

RTS tools for trains will likely not happen because their movement methods are completely different and would require more complexity to deal with you clicking not on the tracks or having several trains selected and then clicking on a track that is either not large enough or has several other tracks running parallel to it. This doesn't seem worth the time or effort to implement considering their general use and tools already available (which, by the way, trains already support waypointing via the temp stops).

Remote driving of spiders would be a lot simpler to implement, though I don't know if they will. The point behind remote driving was to solve situations where a train deadlocked. Spiders won't have that problem, or at least any problem of that sort the RTS tool can take care of. However, with it being on trains, it might be easy for modders to push it over to everything else.

So, ultimately, the answer to this question...

Why is the remote control for both Spidertrons and Trains so different?

...to me comes down to complexity and usage.

Oh, and really, the RTS tool is just the original spider remote with click drag selection added.

[Saftorange]

Can you think of any other places pipette would make sense?

Pipette Biters for grenades o:

[FunMaker]

For me the Spidertron control change is a huge lift up. In the current game state i never use spidertron because only using one spidertron remotely seems underwhelming in huge combat scenarios and the build power of one spidertron is not enough for me. The option to let spidertron follow each other is okay but feels clunky and assigning remote controls for each spidertron and managing the remote controls is a nightmare on it's own.

This makes the spidertron viable for me.

The change in grid snapping on blueprints looks promising. I think this could be improved further with 2 layers in the blueprint edit window to let the player see how putting the blueprint multiple times next to each other snapping on nearby anchors would look like but i think this would be hard to implement it in a way that is really an improvement and might seem only good in theory.

[ColonelWill]

Q-picking a cliff should give you cliff explosives.

[aka13]

A nice addition, AAI Vehicles selection worked really nicely with spidertrons. With the new logistic presets it will make the spidertrons usable on remote outposts/planets.

[Koub]

...

I'l love if I could pipette the items it makes sense to pipette directly from my crafting menu :
1) Pipette in the crafting menu an item I have in my inventory => get a stack of that item in hand (if the item can be manipulated by hand)
2) Pipette in the crafting menu an item I don't have in my inventory => get a ghost of that item in hand (if the item can be placed)

So this would fail for fluids, the ghost in hand would fail for intermediates, ammo, fuel, and the item in hand would work with anything non fluid.

Though not pipette, I think it'd be good for it to auto switch to ghost when placing something that you run out of, too (I think that's still mod only, right?).

Your suggestion would have its uses, but mine could be useful in places where yours wouldn't provide QoL : imagine you can build nuclear reactors, but have none in your inventory, and no shortcut in your quickbar. I'd just have to open the crafting menu, pipette the nuclear reactor, et voilà, ready to ghost (or if I have one in my inventory, but failed to see it, just get it in my hand).
Your suggestion is not bad, just useful in different scenarios (and quite unrelated to the pipette feature if I may add).

[ModProg]

You might want to read the past FFFs, too:
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-383

Edit: Couldn't get at the video url from my phone....

video

Oh thanks totally forgot about that

[FuryoftheStars]

...

I'l love if I could pipette the items it makes sense to pipette directly from my crafting menu :
1) Pipette in the crafting menu an item I have in my inventory => get a stack of that item in hand (if the item can be manipulated by hand)
2) Pipette in the crafting menu an item I don't have in my inventory => get a ghost of that item in hand (if the item can be placed)

So this would fail for fluids, the ghost in hand would fail for intermediates, ammo, fuel, and the item in hand would work with anything non fluid.

Though not pipette, I think it'd be good for it to auto switch to ghost when placing something that you run out of, too (I think that's still mod only, right?).

Your suggestion would have its uses, but mine could be useful in places where yours wouldn't provide QoL : imagine you can build nuclear reactors, but have none in your inventory, and no shortcut in your quickbar. I'd just have to open the crafting menu, pipette the nuclear reactor, et voilà, ready to ghost (or if I have one in my inventory, but failed to see it, just get it in my hand).
Your suggestion is not bad, just useful in different scenarios (and quite unrelated to the pipette feature if I may add).

Yeah, I know it's not pipette, though I know it tends to be lumped with it in other suggestions due to its being a ghost selection thing. Though note, too, I wasn't meaning mine to be a better/instead-of suggestion.

[KeithFromCanada]

Great adds! Some thoughts:

1. Please add the functionality of the 'Filter Helper' and 'Filter Assistant' mods, as well as the ability to copy item filters between storage. They make dealing with storage **SO** much less frustrating.
2. When editing blueprints, **PLEASE** allow for full control, as when the actual objects are placed. (i.e. moving/replacing/setting parameters/etc.) Having to place a blueprint and the items needing to be changed, then resaving it is a hassle. (I'm looking at you, past me who forgot to add modules before blueprinting!)
3. When placing blueprints that include modules, please use the T1 modules we have--instead of the T3 that are in the blueprint--while still marking the structure as needing higher-tier modules. ...and then have bots upgrade to T2 and then T3 as they become available.
4. Copy recipe from assemblers/etc. to constant combinators/cargo wagons/etc., where, each time you paste, another recipe's worth of ingredients are added to CC's and, for storage, that amount of space is reserved with filters.
5. Here's a **HUGE** one: when a player bulk-dumps from their inventory--i.e. <CTRL-MOUSE0> on an empty inventory slot--TURN PERSONAL LOGISTICS OFF! If I am dumping everything into a chest, I don't want to have overly helpful bots filling me right back up again. ARGH! (Yes, I'm well aware that we should remember to do it ourselves, but sometimes we forget.)
6. PLEASE don't require more than one physical remote for controlling squads. Those ten inventory slots can be pretty precious. Alternatively, have secondary inventory slots for small things like that.
7. Add turrets for other ammo types. (e.g. Rocket & cannon turrets, mortars--to launch grenades/capsules/etc.)
8. Please extend the RTS concept to all vehicles.
9. ...and while you are upgrading the vehicles for RTS, how about changing them to have weapons grids instead of pre-set weapons, so players can really personalize them? (Cars: 2x(1x1) grids. Tanks: 1x(2x2) grid, 2x(1x1) grids. Spidertron: 2x(2x2) grids, 4x(1x1) grids.) 2x2 grids would hold regular turrets. 1x1 grids would hold personal weapons/inserters/etc. If a 1x1 grid in a vehicle contains an inserter, then, when a weapon runs out of ammo, it will be reloaded from the vehicle's inventory.

Cheers!

[TheEnemy42]

I love the focus on QoL as well as new content.

Like others I think the RTS name is a bit off the theme but I've just decided that it's short for Remote That Stuff. But I wonder, is an actual item really needed? Why does it need to be crafted and take up space in the inventory? Isn't it just a selection mode? Or is it required to be an item in order to be put in the shortcut bar?

For the pipette I'd like some way to select copper, green and red wire too. Clicking Q multiple times on an electric pole/substation feels intuitive. Holding Q for a related item wheel (like train signals) would be even better but I fear it might add too much overhead, even more so for overhaul mods.

Other QoL wishes:

When highlighting / hover a belt, the sidebar will write out which items and how many are on the belt instead of just displaying the same graphics as I'm highlighting. This is especially for modded content with many similar looking items.

Blueprint editing:
- ability to zoom in to remove small items on big blueprints
- ability to mouse drag to remove big parts of a blueprint (if for example having copied a train station and its surroundings and want to remove parts of the surroundings)

[DEFENESTRATOR-666]

The blueprint thing is amazing. What I'd really appreciate is being able to set up spidertron patrols or conditions. So if a spidertron ends up low on rockets it can go back to base to restock or repair. Or if I draw a big path around my perimeter wall and then connected the end-point with the start-point then it becomes a loop and the spidertron executes it forever or until told to do something else/destroyed.

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but being able to edit blueprints (add new objects to the straight blueprint) would help with re-blueprinting upgraded designs or designs that had a minor issue with them.

Excellent news as always, I'm never disappointed when I check these out.

[Super Mikal]

Pipette a train in the train GUI to get a blueprint of the whole train (minus cargo and fuel) and its schedule/group. Saves you finding an existing train, waiting for it to stop and then carefully selecting it and weeding out other entities.

[Dutchtaylor]

Hi Factorio Devs!

Thanks for the update in the new friday facts.
It really helps allot with making better & faster blueprints for plots (City Blocks)

But i am still struggeling with deselecting tiles in blueprint mode.
I want to remove some tiles but i have to deselect them with my right mouse button.
I wish there was a way to deselect an area by holding right mouse button if i dont want certain tiles in the blueprint.
Holding right click takes a very long time if you need to be specific.

Already mentioned before here: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=111077&p=607587#p607587

Surely this can be added to the blueprint mode! <3

Must be an easy fix.
Thanks allot in advance.

[Henry Loenwind]

No to the new RTS control from me.

There are good mods for controlling hordes of combat Spidertrons, tanks, and other automated vehicles. If someone wants to have RTS warfare, they can easily do that. But the vanilla Spidertron isn't something you spam hundreds onto the map. It is primarily a personal transport and secondarily a bot platform used to build rails outside the area covered by roboports. As such, the primary action of the remote is "go there", not "select", which is why the primary mouse button does exactly that now.

Please remember that Factorio isn't an RTS. It has always been designed as a combination of tower defence and personal combat. Remote controlling units to attack the enemy goes against that, so changing the remote to make that easier while making the "good" interaction ("come to me, my personal transport") harder makes no sense.

The same goes for the pathfinding people have requested here. If this were an RTS, duh, pathfinding would be a must, but it isn't. At the moment, Spidertrons do not have pathfinding because the player is expected to interactively control them, either by sitting inside or by using the remote on the map.

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Edit/PS: With the 2.0 tweaks, I think you're running afoul of "wouldn't it be cool" featuritis and losing sight of core game design. Step back and take a look at what the actual game loop is. Do your additions strengthen the game loop or muddle it?

In my opinion, giving more power to the map muddles the game loop. One of Factorio's core values is that the player has an avatar. You need to run around and do things yourself. To fight, you have to go to the front yourself and be in danger of being killed. To build your factory, you have to go there and do it, configure the machines by hand while you are there. (And then copy and paste what you have built using bots; so far, that makes sense as it reduces repetition.) Doing stuff with your avatar is what distinguishes Factorio from other automation/building games.

Having multiple planets is a weak excuse for throwing that out the window. There are other solutions for the inconvenience of having to travel to build and fix things. Personal rockets, piloting robot avatars, teleport pads, switching consciousness between multiple clones, multiplayer, and so on.

The same goes, to a lesser extent, for the train changes. Factorio isn't a Train Tycoon game. Trains are just one building block in a factory; they are a solution for one specific problem. And that is long-distance transport. Not sorting items, not on-demand delivery, not dynamic load balancing. All of that is belt territory. Belts are Factorio's core item transport system. But as it stands now, rails can do so much more than belts. In fact, there's now enough complexity to trains that you could make them a standalone game. Again, this is Factorio, not Traintorio!

And all of that when, at the same time, you're removing gameplay depth from inserters.

[gobsan]

WHAT:
Please add pipette tool for copy/paste assembler's output to yellow chests and inserters.

HOW: CTRL + RIGHT MOUSE on assembler to copy and CTRL + LEFT MOUSE to paste. Very similar to how copy/paste works with requester chests.

Optional: if multiple items are produced in the assembler: CTRL + LEFT MOUSE will cycle through the produced items inside the yellow chest single filter. And since inserters have multiple filters now, copy/paste can insert all assembler's items. Exactly how requester's chests work now.

WHY:
It is very tiresome to set up a hub with tens of items. Setting up a yellow chest with a filter instead of red is beneficial when you want to keep all the same items in one place. Now you'll need to pick and choose such an item every time manually. Not to mention, you already have this feature implemented with assembler -> requester's chest.

Thank you very much in advance.

[Qon]

No to the new RTS control from me.
[...]

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Edit/PS: With the 2.0 tweaks, I think you're running afoul of "wouldn't it be cool" featuritis and losing sight of core game design. Step back and take a look at what the actual game loop is. Do your additions strengthen the game loop or muddle it?

In my opinion, giving more power to the map muddles the game loop. [...]

Doing things remotely is more fun to me, but the tools are a bit too clunky to always support it. The reason I send out 1 spidertron instead of doing RTS selections or program them to automate attacks is because that's all they can do currently. But I would prefer to do the things we now know that Factorio will support. And I want even more useful remote tools for automating warfare from afar. So the things they are doing are strengthening what I do like about Factorio. Same with trains, the additions are lovely!

[FuryoftheStars]

One of Factorio's core values is that the player has an avatar. You need to run around and do things yourself.

Actually, no. One of Factorio's core values is, and I dare say always has been, automation. Getting things to the point that your avatar doesn't need to run around and do things themselves.

[malecord]

damn that was a rollercoaster... reading "RTS tool" as a RTS i fan was stoked!
"wohooo! i can now controll cars and tanks with it too?!"
turns out, you can´t, it´s just a very VERY MISSLEADING name for an" ONLY SPIDERTRON controll item".
new players or those who have not seen the FFF, are going to scratch their heads.

for the rest of the changes in the 2.0 update... YEAHHHH!!!! [for now]

Come on man. If the "spidertron remote" is renamed into a generic "rts controller" that clearly suggests moving onward it will control other smart units as well.