Friday Facts #129 - The late game

[Garog0201]

I wanted to write you some info about what i thought about the game, then just one day later you postet the blogpost about the endgame and yes, that matches exactly what i wanted to write to you

i played the "missions" and then started the Szenario where i had to build the rocket.
because of the mission i knew i had to use large space for planning and a loot of labs. so i build my factory to supply 16 labs and rushed through the technologies so fast i can't even try a new one.the whole mission took me ~18hours and just because i decided to build two train stations and tested the blueprint function.
And now.. what should i do.. send new rockets for the counter... boring. i research every technology just because i was hoping a new "hidden" one would appear.
there was no need to build new minigplaces, no need for trains, no need for logic circuits or even drones. i know this are things that make it just "easier" to manage or to to better in a more effizient way. but why not make it a part of the endgame, that you need to expand your base with train stations maybe because oil is just far away from you startingpoint. the labs also work a way to fast, there had to be something like a efficiency reduction. first lab 100%, second lab 75%, third 50%.. down to 10% minimum, you know what i mean
that would give you more time to explore the new researched technologies and stretch the endgame maybe because we could change the productionchains to make a profit from the new techs
the aliens also not really "usefull" in the endgame there is a point when the aliens becomes stronger and start big attacks, but that's, in my case, also the point where i can produce lasertowers, so i just have to encircle my base with lasers and i just need to check the tower if there is one to repair.. from time to time

the tank is a good idea, when you can first build the tank its a strong weapon but when the aliens becomes stronger and gets bigger bases, the tank is useless, you can't even kill the aliens so fast as there respawn, even with maxed weapons, normal and explosiv ammo.
only way that worked for me, build poles to the alienbases and place a bomb of lasers near the aliens base and work your way through the base this way.

but, it's alpha and early access and hell man, you did a great job, i don't know how long it has been since a game took so many time from me and robbed my sleep.
the game is great, linux support +++ love it, german translation (you already mention that english is not my nativ language ) and the monster mega crazy wiki
can't wait to see new content or new changes coming

[SteelRodent]

I like your ideas for the mines, but hopefully that will come with better map generation. Having to re-gen the map 20 times to get one where the starting resources are properly balanced - and where the only iron source in the starting zone isn't underwater - is rather annoying. I know you're aware of issues with the map generator, but it aggravates the problems with the resource availability when the best spots are unreachable due to either water or massive hives that you can't possibly deal with when you need the resources (depends on settings, of course). Especially stones are always lacking unless you turn the settings up.

Personally I'm not a big fan of having to deal with the locals - optimizing production and solving the logistic puzzles is what's fun for me - and for me it's a nuisance having to go deal with the hives just to keep them under control and getting their balls. Despite people saying the combat being too easy and disappointing, I don't want the game turning into a RTS - it's not a C&C game after all and shouldn't be. But I do wonder where the rocket turrets are (we are doing rocket science and making rockets after all). Right now all the defences are close range, but rocket turrets would add long range defence, although it'd require some balancing to avoid them being overly used for turret creeping.

Your pollution should also cause more bug evolution than just making them stronger. Although it's not easy to code, having them adapt to your defensive strategy seems obvious, but then again we head into RTS territory, which would IMO ruin the game.

But when it comes to the research, I find there isn't enough that only requires green or red. Even with only one lab you get through them so fast that you spend most the game doing blue research, and it often takes longer to set up the blue research automation than it does to do all the red and green research - doing blue research is excessive complicated compared to red and green. Then it becomes a game about hunting down resources and bringing them home, while killing one bug base after the other (sending the rather dubious message that we should kill everyone who cares about the environment). I also feel there should be "something" past the rocket silo. Not sure what, exactly, but having to do so much work just to to launch a satellite feels lacking. The game is missing the part after you launch the satellite where you have to survive until you get rescued - which could easily be a long time. And in the meantime you could be working on getting yourself home and not getting killed by bugs in the meantime.

I also think there needs to be more options for the power supply (and a better UI for it with numbers instead of just bars in different lengths which tell you nothing - it doesn't tell me anywhere that I have a 60 MW installation, but only that production capacity is more than the 34 MW I'm using). Right now we only have steam and solar (with the priority settings still being wrong), but why not oil furnaces since we make oil? Or even geothermal in the late game (or even borrow the borehole from Alpha Centauri since we don't care about the environment). I expected being able to research more efficient power systems, but no, it's not there. For all the machines it'd make sense to have research that lets you squeeze more out of your resources instead of all the upgrades breaking down to just demanding more from your power supply (which doesn't make sense because then you're just shifting the inefficiency to a different machine).

I'm also looking for sensors for the trains and a way to communicate with them. It's not necessarily end-game stuff, but with the logic system I had hoped to be able to make an ATC system that doesn't rely on the signals and that would tell me if a train is approaching (since the game is top down and the tracks don't sing, you never know when a train is coming).

[golfmiketango]

Regarding the barrels -- obviously how Bob's mod does it is a dirty hack to work around the limitation that barrels can't hold different stuff like, I guess, tiny tankers. Presumably, SHTDI but it'd be quite doable to implement some "arbitrary beltable (liquid?) container" API and hot-convert the barrels into those on load.

Regarding the dirty ores thing, great idea. Note that the same thing could be done to oil, i.e., fracking, etc. My very vague understanding of the Earthen oil business is that it started out as "find the splats and drill" and wound up as a highly technical endeavour as we gobbled up the low-hanging fruit, leaving an increasingly difficult supply/demand puzzle (so much so that it is expected to become intractable in the not-so-distant future).

BTW, thanks for continuing to think through how to move the game forward after your big pay-day... Not that you've given us any reason to expect anything less.

[Align]

(or even borrow the borehole from Alpha Centauri since we don't care about the environment)

Yes. Hell yes.

[AdventurerMrH]

Steam Support Multiplayer would greatly improve the game. Please, could you add this??

[Krayt]

Steam Support Multiplayer would greatly improve the game. Please, could you add this??

What are you talking about? Multiplayer is already integrated and working in the game - on steam as well.

[keyboardhack]

Steam Support Multiplayer would greatly improve the game. Please, could you add this??

What are you talking about? Multiplayer is already integrated and working in the game - on steam as well.

I think he is talking about right clicking one of your friends and pressing join to join their game and similair actions.

[Smarty]

Steam Support Multiplayer would greatly improve the game. Please, could you add this??

What are you talking about? Multiplayer is already integrated and working in the game - on steam as well.

I think he is talking about right clicking one of your friends and pressing join to join their game and similair actions.

I think the devs are working on it with 0.13 but one of the devs has to confirm this

[Koub]

I think the devs are working on it with 0.13 but one of the devs has to confirm this

Like in https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-111?

[KingWut117]

Awesome! Do you guys have plans to implement s steam Workshop and multiplayer support through steam?

[KingWut117]

Personally I'm not a big fan of having to deal with the locals - optimizing production and solving the logistic puzzles is what's fun for me - and for me it's a nuisance having to go deal with the hives just to keep them under control and getting their balls...
...I don't want the game turning into a RTS...
...
Your pollution should also cause more bug evolution than just making them stronger. Although it's not easy to code, having them adapt to your defensive strategy seems obvious,
but then again we head into RTS territory, which would IMO ruin the game.

...The game is missing the part after you launch the satellite where you have to survive until you get rescued - which could easily be a long time. And in the meantime you could be working on getting yourself home and not getting killed by bugs in the meantime....

I'm having a hard time understanding your post... You say that dealing with biters is an annoying part of the game you don't really enjoy, but then you say that pollution should cause MORE biter troubles to deal with... Then you say you don't want the game to be an RTS, but then you turn around again and say the end game should have more biter problems... Do you want biters or not?

Personally I think the biters are what make this game a GAME. If you don't have to worry about pollution and defense, you can just set up a literally PERFECT factory set-up. You can just get the ratios perfect and blast through all of the progression with nothing more than several hours of game time pasting down factory blueprints. The biters are there to challenge you, to make you rethink certain strategies in favor of safer ones. Without the Biters, the game just becomes a boring repeat of every other new game you start. I would personally love to see the expansion of Biter mechanics, more varied enemies, better AI, more combat options. It gives a sort of purpose to all the factory building. You want to design your factory to be very efficient and expansive, but you have to temper it with spending resources on defense and expansion.

[Koub]

Awesome! Do you guys have plans to implement s steam Workshop and multiplayer support through steam?

Steam Support Multiplayer would greatly improve the game. Please, could you add this??

What are you talking about? Multiplayer is already integrated and working in the game - on steam as well.

I think he is talking about right clicking one of your friends and pressing join to join their game and similair actions.

I think the devs are working on it with 0.13 but one of the devs has to confirm this

I think the devs are working on it with 0.13 but one of the devs has to confirm this

Like in https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-111?

[Tepalus]

And i'm just sitting here, waiting for the Friday Facts #130...i hope they will come soon today!

[regn752]

The 'smoke' on the steam generators is quite dark, I thought it was just steam being exhausted which is white since the boilers burn the fuel and creates blackish smoke. Also the boilers should have chimneys imo.

[Escadin]

The late game enhancement - Resource sinks
[...]
The intention is that the player views this as an optional extension of the research, and to give them and their factories some additional work to do, for a substantial bonus.

I've actually got a couple of ideas on that:

1) Distinct visuals and presentation.
Give those techs a golden frame, a looping arrow as water-mark and unusal recipe costs and put them in a different tab of the research window or a seperated group at the top/bottom. I'm 100% sure if you can make those researches look like an entirely independent feature which doesn't naturally belong to the actual tech tree then people are going to treat it differently. Remember: the right presentation and UI can accomplish A LOT in a game.

2) Infite researches can be used to allow an optional specialization.
If they provide a trade-off rather than a direct boost like e.g. laser turrets get +x% range but lose y% fire rate. Plus there should be infite researches for all aspects of the game, for example:

• Underground belt/ pipe length
• Inserter speed
• Solar panel power
• Tank / Akku capacity

If these researches are so expensive that people have to prioritize then they could allow different base layouts than what you've been building so far or would have been building if you've chosen other researches.

Resource generation tweaks:
Resource generation would be tweaked, so the richness of the mining sites would grow the further you are from the center of the map[...]
Long term mining drills:
[...]

Mining issue
I really like both suggestions in theory but the problem is they have little synergy with infinite map sizes. It just means you have to move out far enough in order for the deposites to become worth your time, place a mining operation and be done with it. However, this doesn't feel like extracting the resources of an entire planet because in order for that to be the case there needs to be a sense of having more depleted deposites than you can count around your base leaving miles and miles of pillaged wastelands covered in your ruins and outposts.
(That is my personal opinion anyway)

Solution: Deal with the fact that constantly mining different places becomes a bottle-neck and a chore - not with the constant mining from different places itself.
Or in other words allow people to mine the current resource landscape faster and with less effort as they progress so they spread faster and further instead of stagnating a few effectively infinite mining bases!

For instance, you could expand mining like you expanded distribution (logistic network) by adding a mining network and another tier of flying robots that launches from a common mining facility/ hub and automatically seeks out nearby deposites (which potentially have to be designated by beacons) to mine from them and then return their cargo to the hub. Instead of placing 10 spaced out mines, people can place 1-2 central hubs and connect them via trains to their main base.
Of course, it wouldn't be THAT easy because people would still have to keep the area clean of enemies and protect the drones as they mine / commute. Additionally these drones could pose as a major late game energy sink and make aliens SUPER angry. The fun part about it (in addition to that I imagine them to look awesome) would be that your mining speed scales with the amount of resources you invest into your drone count giving you and exponential mining curve an the ability to absolutely ransack the plant at a rate that justifies infinite map size.
If you're not looking for an energy sink then how about fuel based flight requiring solid fuel (not less) or batteries (consumed - not recharged)? The mining facility / hub might act as a refueling station and the drone's small tank / high consumption as a limitation for their travel distance.

And finally you can still add the "dirty ore" tech because researching dirty ore mining would allow you to manually switch (or copy, blueprint) mining modes for all kinds of drills and robots from regular mining to dirty mining which either speeds up the drilling process or yields more ore but requires another processing step at home.

In case you wonder what the whole thing could look like then think Termites (UCS) from Earth 2160.

[Goldminer]

So damn many Ideas!

I like so much of them, but we all know that most of em will never be come part in the game.

I realy hope that you can come up with more challanging ways to USE the big Factories we build and that we have to build MORE Factory production Lines - many more! - and you will take a peak into making better deeper Concepts for Mining, Energy and better more Intelligent and feared unique Monsters to chain all the Parts together AND i realy hope the Game does not lose his Flair!

So many Ideas, so many Wishes ... :/

Is there any other Way besides buying the game to support you guys ? I miss something like a Paypal Donation option or other Ways to help you realize our Gamingdreams ;D

[RobertTerwilliger]

Is there any other Way besides buying the game to support you guys ? I miss something like a Paypal Donation

There's "donate" link at the factorio.com frontpage - is that what you're looking for?

[Goldminer]

Oh, i didnt find it there! Maybe adblocked or so, but it should be more obvious.. or i realy getting blind on my old days

[tehroach]

Barrels interface between pipes and belts etc. Something that tankers simply can't do.

Do pipes & belts really have to have interface between?

We could argue the finer philosophical points on this till the cows come home,
But removing barrels will remove a feature that is currently in the game.

I mean, you will never be able to send, say, gears though pipes - why should you send liquids though belts then?
Or another example: you can't send electricity through belt or pipe - it has it's own network. It's okay to have different networks for different resource types.

Sorry but these comparisons are a little silly,
maybe if there was the idea of manufacturing pre-charged batteries so electricity could be transported by belt, we could argue that.
But I would probably agree with you that it is un-needed, also it is not a feature currently in the game.

I literally never used barrels longer than from filling assembler to train and from train to pouring assembler. And I don't see any reason why I possibly should - 'cause pipes do it faster than any belt, just plonk some small pumps if distance is too long.

This is good, your play-style will be completely satisfied by the tankers,
maybe it is just the case that you haven't had the opportunity to find the other uses for barrels.

The only problem with tanker that appears to me is, like a loader from previous FFF, it is highly specialized entity and doesn't fit perfectly into Factorio concept. However this one at least has sense))

IMO I don't really see the need to transfer any other liquid other than Oil or Water by rail as Oil can be used to create all other liquids other than water.

[tehroach]

Regarding the barrels -- obviously how Bob's mod does it is a dirty hack to work around the limitation that barrels can't hold different stuff like, I guess, tiny tankers. Presumably, SHTDI but it'd be quite doable to implement some "arbitrary beltable (liquid?) container" API and hot-convert the barrels into those on load.

Unfortunately I don't think this is completely doable, even if there was an option that generically filled the barrels with what ever liquid was in the pipe, you would still end up with a different item for each type of liquid.
It would however remove the argument of crowding the UI with many different pretty colored icons, so it gets my vote.

PS In the end, I just want them to add the tanker option, but also keep the current option.