Friday Facts #429 - Vulcanus Demolisher Enemies

[GregoriusT]

I've understood that if you land on a planet, any planet, even if lose everything and remain stranded you have a way to start from scratch and build up a factory like on navius.

But if vulcanus has lava, and lava requires foundries, to process... how you build your first foundries from lava? Does it mean the engineer can manually process some lava into minerals? I had a similar question for fulgora a and recycle. We can manually reciclr stuff now?

I think Vulcanus might have Rocks that give you a limited amount of Stone, Iron and Copper Ore when you harvest them. This would at least be the most sensible mechanic to use for this purpose.

[Jerrybubbles]

An enemy with big texture and 10x more health that takes minutes to take down. This enemy is way worse than I ever imagined enemies would get in Factorio.

Read the blog!!!

This took the expected time to kill (with a decent damage rate) from minutes to seconds.

Either way the fight is over quickly, it doesn't waste your time, and both situations are interesting.

[CyberCider]

Only that iron and copper are infinite on vulcanus so there is no point to add a resource drain on a timer mechanic like navius biters.

Btw, off topic question, I've understood that if you land on a planet, any planet, even if lose everything and remain stranded you have a way to start from scratch and build up a factory like on navius.

But if vulcanus has lava, and lava requires foundries, to process... how you build your first foundries from lava? Does it mean the engineer can manually process some lava into minerals? I had a similar question for fulgora a and recycle. We can manually reciclr stuff now?

1. Lava may be infinite, but to process it into anything useful you need calcite, which is a finite ore. Just like Fulgora has infinite heavy oil, but finite water to crack it with.
2. There are rocks that contain iron, copper and tungsten ore. You need to handmine those to get your first buildings. And besides the usual furnaces and such, to make a foundry you actually require: Solar panels, pumpjacks, oil refineries, chemplants and assembler 2s.
3. Scrap specifically can be recycled by hand. And the recycler is made of blue circuits, steel, gears and concrete. All direct scrap outputs, no uncrafting required.

[KeithFromCanada]

:cough:

[The Phoenixian]

Idly, it struck me that the Demolisher has a lot of Millipede in it's aesthetic design, both in general shape and in how the outer flanges of it's armor look like legs.

However, as the thousand legged millipede is very small, would the much, much bigger thousand legged Demolisher then be... A Killopede?

[scarhoof]

I think it might be interesting to have the types of buildings that trigger the Destroyers be based on how many have been killed. Start off a little easier for the player, but as you cull the herd more and more, they become more agressive. This could also be adjusted based on the enemy sliders at world creation, so default gives more leeway, while deathworld games have more agressive Destroyers from the second you land on Vulcanus.

I also think maybe having them expand their territory slowly on higher levels be an option I think more hardcore players would like, but default and easier leave as you have it configured.

I saw another idea of having the dead skeleton of one in the starting area to hint to the player the fun to come. I love that idea, and maybe it could be larger based on either random roll, or on enemy sliders.

Can't wait to play this!

[GregoriusT]

I just had the realization that there was some "basic bitch row of turrets" in previous screenshots, there might be more enemies than just the defensive Centipedes on this Planet, since the Demolisher would just easily crunch through those few Turrets.

Now this COULD be because they originally tested with Biters while the Enemies were WIP, but it may also be an indicator that it is not as peaceful as it seems.

[DrakeyC]

I was hesitant on the idea when I began reading the blog, but it grew on me as I kept reading. A passive enemy that guards a territory until you disturb it is actually going to be nice to face, you stay in your factory and don't bother it and it won't bother you, until it's time to expand. It's how I've tried to treat Biters in the past until they force my hand.

That said, I echo the questions that others have had regarding other enemy types on Vulcanus, because if its only Demolishers then it will definitely be a dull planet for combat, there'll be no point to stationary defenses at all. I'm sure you've other surprises in store.

I'm also reflecting on a previous FFF that mentioned "pollution" has a different form and mechanic on other planets, like the jungle planet having spores. The talk about seismic effects in this one makes me wonder if seismic activity will be the pollution of Vulcanus. If that IS the plan, I think it'd be more interesting for Demolishers to be more heavily attracted to active machines and particularly mining machines. So like, things like power lines or pipes, they may not notice or care; assembly machines and forges, that draws their attention when they wander closer; and if you build mining machines or run a line of rails through their territory, they come charging with great fury. On the other hand, lava acts as a barrier that dampens the seismic disturbances to not bother them so much.

That kind of design would incentivize players to be creative with their factory layouts and routing so they can build into and through Demolisher territory while finding ways to avoid provoking them, much like you have now on Nauvis with Biters and pollution barriers.

[GregoriusT]

I was hesitant on the idea when I began reading the blog, but it grew on me as I kept reading. A passive enemy that guards a territory until you disturb it is actually going to be nice to face, you stay in your factory and don't bother it and it won't bother you, until it's time to expand. It's how I've tried to treat Biters in the past until they force my hand.

That said, I echo the questions that others have had regarding other enemy types on Vulcanus, because if its only Demolishers then it will definitely be a dull planet for combat, there'll be no point to stationary defenses at all. I'm sure you've other surprises in store.

I'm also reflecting on a previous FFF that mentioned "pollution" has a different form and mechanic on other planets, like the jungle planet having spores. The talk about seismic effects in this one makes me wonder if seismic activity will be the pollution of Vulcanus. If that IS the plan, I think it'd be more interesting for Demolishers to be more heavily attracted to active machines and particularly mining machines. So like, things like power lines or pipes, they may not notice or care; assembly machines and forges, that draws their attention when they wander closer; and if you build mining machines or run a line of rails through their territory, they come charging with great fury. On the other hand, lava acts as a barrier that dampens the seismic disturbances to not bother them so much.

That kind of design would incentivize players to be creative with their factory layouts and routing so they can build into and through Demolisher territory while finding ways to avoid provoking them, much like you have now on Nauvis with Biters and pollution barriers.

Until you realize your Ore Patches are not mobile and you cant just decide to move your Miners off the Ore Patches where there is Lava damphening the vibes.

[DrakeyC]

No, but if a Demolisher's territory includes lava in it, you could look at building on the other side of it to act as a buffer and lower the odds of it noticing until it comes around the lava

[Jap2.0]

To start I drastically reduced the health of the Demolisher from 80000 to 30000 and reduced the resistances, in particular the flat reduction to damage that makes most attacks barely have any effect. This took the expected time to kill (with a decent damage rate) from minutes to seconds. The main difficulty of killing it now is dealing with the very high regeneration rate of 1500 hp per second.

Demolisher size is only controlled by distance from the starting area.... The big Demolishers are much more difficult to kill.

So... what does size impact? Health? Regen rate? Attack size or range? Are the numbers in the first quote just a baseline?

[foxiest_engineer]

DemonicLaxatives on Reddit wrote a poem for the floating jelly brainy enemy:

Oh, creature of tentacles and mind so vast,
With limbs that curled like shadows cast,
In dreams of Factorio, you did dwell,
A mystery spun from the devs' deep well.

For two long years, we dreamed and guessed,
Of the battles we'd fight, the fears we'd test.
Yet now you fade, from code and lore,
A phantom you'll be, forevermore.

In regards to the Demolisher's structure targetting, I think it makes most gameplay AND lore sense to target only active buildings.

Lore-wise, for Demolishers inactive buildings could perhaps just blend into the landscape, perhaps some weirdly-shaped rock formations as far as they know, while any active buildings will make unnatural tremors for the Demolishers that alerts them of that this is something in their territory that doesn't belong there.

Gameplay-wise, it would also make "Guerrilla mining operations" more viable through clever and highly strategically-timed activation and deactivation of buildings. Just my $0.02.

Thank you devs for all the hard work and amazing things you make.

[GhostPirate]

Don't make it easier! Keep them difficult, make us work for our territory. One of the most disappointing things that happens as you get good at factorio is the enemies are just useless distractions. Even on death world, they're not terribly hard, and you have to crank them to 100% on everything to get a decent challenge, and even that's just a logistics puzzle.

Give us HARD BOSSES! We LOVE the demolisher!!

[RiscaYin]

Beasts in Factorio,

I get why you devs love them and it seems like some players love to have harder and harder beasts to get killed by. I hate biters, end of topic, if I have to play with what I consider crap I see no reason why I would waste my money on buying things that I will hate every second of my life and I just feel crushed because I hate what you all seem to love. Not happy, don't really care that the bugs never actually hurt me, I know I feel small joy on a win, but I feel my soul crushed when biters kill me. So if it makes any difference I would like to have a huge rock pushed up and I would like to start a chant for no monsters, or I guess maybe I could play in some kind of tame universe.

Unhappy RiscaYin

[iestynne]

Really love the concept of unlocking territory judiciously via planned combat. Really nice 'chunking' of progression, compared to biter combat. I was hoping to see combat as a form of mining (i.e grinding enemies for unique resource drops) but this is just as good and also enhances the interest factor of world-gen.

[techi]

Demolishers have no resistance to poison capsules. It's not a hint to use poison capsules, it's just because poison damage is so weak compared to other damage types that adding a resistance doesn't make sense. The problem is that if you test 1 poison capsule on a Demolisher, it looks like no damage is dealt because the regeneration is higher than the damage of a few poison capsules (even if they hit multiple segments), so the damage is healed instantly and the health bar doesn't even appear. The reality is that they do offset some of the regeneration but that isn't communicated. If we make the health bar linger for a moment after any damage then it will make that situation clearer.

Suggestion: make the regeneration scale with the remaining health. So it goes linearly from say 10 hp/s at full health to 2500 hp/s or so at zero hp. This way not only players will be able to see that the thing can in fact be hurt, even with poison capsules, but are also provided with a nearly immediate feedback about where their DPS is versus where it has to be. If the worm stabilizes at 2/3rds health then you need to triple your damage output to get it.

[mmmPI]

I think the information on the segmented worm are very important

I find it funny that this part of the game is already very different from what was there during the LAN party. I think it has improved already and it's making me hoping the best for the release date !

It was really interesting to read about the voronoi noise, and the bits of reasonning/math behind the territories. I like how the gameplay and 'lore' works together, with the 'rules" of the gameplay being possible to explain with things like vibrations. I think it helps tremendously giving a character to the worms, making it a creature in its world. I had always wondered how the static worms would survive their nauvis environment, like getting food or something. They feel a bit like turret reskinned, this one is so different in comparaison. It really feels at its place in Vulcanus, it's not the Balrog, but it's giving me the same vibes of a massive ancient ennemy in firey environmment.

I can understand how similar to dune it would look had this worm be in Fulgora, but i wouldn't have had any problems with that. Worms in sand desert is also existing outside / before Dune, and there are countless art where the desert is compared to a sea of sand, with all the creatures that one may expect in a "sea". So i would look forward to modded ennemies in Fulgora if there is no ennemy in Fulgora at release date

I am happy to finally hear about the jellyfish biter, even if it's to hear that it doesn't make it in the last planet. I was starting to think i had missed something, i trust the devs when they say they removed it for progression purposes, but also i'm the kind of player who don't mind super slow progression, and will be looking forward to those ennemies if they are in a mod.

I'm sorry to get somewhat salty, but I don't want to have real fights in Factorio. I didn't buy Factorio because of the fights. And now even a planet full of bosses. I hate boss fights, everywhere, in all games. I abandon games that contain them. An enemy with big texture and 10x more health that takes minutes to take down. This enemy is way worse than I ever imagined enemies would get in Factorio. Graphics are nice, but I simply don't want to fight. I guess the best solution would probably be to write a mod to adjust the health of all the non-trivial creatures to 10% or 5% to not completely waste 1/4 of the tech tree by completely disabling them.

What will await us at the final planet? A final uber huge boss? Please not.

I don't think you will necessarily have to boss fight, imo, that is similar to the game terraria, where you can do the boss fight "the intended way", or you can set up automated kill zone with traps and wire and engineering. From reading the FFF Earendel mention different strategies one of them involving luring worms in specific area designed to kill them.

I think this option will be the "least" micro-intensive.

Similar to currently some player feel like they have to kill all biter nest manually going there with their spidertron, but you can also expand only using artillery and never fighting manually.


I play usually peaceful because i am "bored" of biters, but i welcome the new challenges of new ennemies, i had played with various modded ennemies to try them and find enjoying extreme setups too. I think the ability to choose between the 2 is a strengh of factorio, and i don't think it is going to change !

[Stalinlover22]

OMG, Vulcanus Boss!! Can´t wait to fight it!

[Byrnorthil]

Very epic, I've been wishing for something more analogous to boss fights in this game, and this looks like it. As an MMO enjoyer I'm looking forward to taking Vulcanus as my first planet and rushing some of these with my brother. Soft-clamping the player's speed is an excellent way to ensure the attacks are fair without making dodging everything a cakewalk at higher levels. (I presume you can still cheese it with a high-quality armor full of exos, but that's entirely fair). The territory system honestly makes me wish I'd thought of it also, and the perfect way to tackle these guys.

That being said, having played thousands of hours of MMOs, I can say right now that the cluster explosion needs to be more telegraphed. At least in the sample footage, it's nearly impossible to see the fissures through the ash clouds until right before they go off. Ideally we'd also get a sound cue when the attack starts, so we know to (maybe, how greedy are you? stop shooting and be on the lookout for them. I can't comment on the telegraph timing without actually playing it myself, but I do hope larger sizes (and difficulty sliders) decrease the timing as well as potentially modifying the explosion count. This would make demos farther out mechanically different as well as just having a bigger dps check, and also allow players to make them easier to dodge in the settings.

I agree with others that it'd be good to have sliders per surface.

Overall, very good! If my concerns get addressed these'll easily be my favorite enemies (I hope fulgora doesn't make me eat those words) and possibly a big reason to go to Vulcanus first.

[Violet_Scarelli]

LOVE these new enemies. However, my one quibble: no border attrition. The planet with essentially free resources shouldn't also have no border attrition.

So, my concept is...

What if they fought? They're territorial, right? So what if the larger worms tried to claim the territories of the smaller ones, and they clashed over that? The player is safe for a time, but worms will gradually try to expand their territory into empty tiles, or tiles they think are occupied by a smaller, less threatening worm, which they will attack and try to kill if they find it. This is basically determined by how much "noise" each worm makes as it moves. Additionally, the player will likely get predictions of which tiles worms will try to expand into next, as well as the strength of the worm that owns the territory and where the worm is at the moment, if the worm passes through a tile covered by a seismometer (more on that later).

This isn't as dangerous as biters, relatively, since the worms are one to a territory, and the larger their territory gets, the longer it takes them to patrol the whole area. But over time, the bigger worms will overtake the small ones, which corresponds to the planet's threat level increasing. Eventually, worm size will probably (hopefully) cap, and you'll be left with the biggest worms patrolling enormous territories.

To counter this, you the player are given several things.

To warn against incoming worms, you are given the Seismometer. This is a circuit-attached sort of ground radar that outputs the current noise level it hears. Noise has a linear dropoff, so with a little bit of math and multiple sensors (they have a very long range), you can make an early warning system for the worms.

The crudest method of imitating the Demolisher's low-grade earthquake is the Seismic Tower. This device consumes a lot of power, but produces a seismic rumble that pulses into the ground. This is alright, but only covers a static area. However, you can turn it on and off with the circuit network, and with a bit of clever engineering you can make a traveling pulse that can cover a larger area without using nearly as much power, by activating towers in sequence. Player-protected tiles on the map are shown in a different color, along with their protection value.

The far more clever method, and one that will save you enormous amounts of time, is the Earthshaker railcar, or Poseidon railcar if you want to be fancy. Made with tech imported from Fulgora, this railcar requires a power source of its own, likely in the form of either batteries or a fluid of some kind. It also weighs as much as two normal railcars. However, as it travels, it emits the same rumble as a Demolisher would, with multiple cars stacking their vibrations to imitate larger and larger worms. A word of caution, though: they stop working while the train is on elevated rail!

So to recap.

The first defense you are given against worms is just early warning with the Seismometer, allowing you to shut down noise sources (like drills, these make a very low-grade rumble that will only attract a worm, rather than warding it off) when a Demolisher passes and isn't expanding its territory, so it doesn't attack. Then, you're given the Seismic Tower once you start mining tungsten in earnest, and can protect static areas (though you will need more and more towers as the worms you defend against get bigger). Finally, once you have conquered Fulgora, you're given the Earthshaker railcar to protect your trains and make outposts much easier.

I dunno. Maybe my idea is way too out there. But I think that leaning harder into the "worms are territorial" bit would end up fun and terrifying, and giving the player a way to scare worms off by making more noise than them is a pretty cool counter to that.