Solar Panel return on investment

[n9103]

It might be the current target of the alpha, but if that's the goal of the finished game then it's surely one hell of a boring goal. ^^ xD

I find it odd that comments like these can be made from people that are purposely ignoring the intended ending.
You're obviously ignoring Rocket Defense because it ends the game, yet you're complaining that there needs to be more content to the end game.

You got to the end game. You didn't like it.

[ssilk]

Belief me or not, but this will be the target of the game.

It might be the current target of the alpha, but if that's the goal of the finished game then it's surely one hell of a boring goal. ^^ xD

Sorry, but I promised to tell no more. But you can trust them, that it won't be boring.

Well I've several chests full with Module 2s... and crafted enough module 3s for every machine already... I don't know what giant factory you are maintaining but I topped out at 450MW or something with my map. But well I invested ~116 hours into it already with several reconstructions to incorporate beacons or better designs (which I would never do anymore since it's easier to start a new map) and let the factory do it's job in the background while I went out to explore the neighbourhood. xD
I can only imagine that you're overnuking the entire production circle to create stuff in godly numbers as fast as possible, while I took my sweet time producing bit for bit but all the time without any interruption and store them to chests to have them ready for later. ^^

Oh, my current target is to create a world which feels like railroad tycoon, or better OpenTTD, something where you have to bring tons of goods from A to B, then B to C an so on. All by train of course.
I created also an outposts concept, that is auto filled with goods to be able to built wherever I go (which needs of course tons of resources to be filled with the basic materials), and currently my plan is to move the entire base to a new place, cause the old is to small.

And yes, my target is to be able to see, what are the limits of the game engine on my computer.
No, truly my target is, to check, how outposts in Factorio can work, and I know meanwhile, that we need something else than trains, cause it would be too expensive and complex. I think meanwhile, that we need some kind of "portal", some teleport stuff, which also can be used by robots, but every transfer will cost energy, exponential rising with the distance.
A bit like https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... ort#p23081

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, don't know, maybe it's just the fact that I'm using Gun Turrets, which don't require any energy. xD

In the game FAQ in the game-help board, see my signature, are some tips how to make the game more interesting.
But all in all I must say, that at this stage of the development (still alpha) it is the players job to find out, how to play the game so, that it makes fun.

Don't know what kind of endgame the devs have in mind, but if it is resource costly, then I might actually rethink the energy costs, but currently the solar farming/laser turret stuff renders gameplay to become boring quite fast for me. It's surely the way to go because of its benefits, but meh gameplay-wise because they don't add any depth to it rather than the complete opposite: They make things too easy again. ^^

Maybe you're right. So, if, why do you insist on such a small detail as with these solar panels? They are not important, they can be changed really fast, even you can write a simple mod or something, which changes the balancing to see, if you're right or add maintenance to the solar panels... Try other mods, look what others build, watch let's plays, try to prove your theory. But please don't complain about the non-existing end-game targets of the alpha vanilla game.

[MeduSalem]

But please don't complain about the non-existing end-game targets of the alpha vanilla game.

Don't worry... It wasn't a complain, rather a concern. I've plenty of other things to do and try out in Factorio and if I ever get bored with it I'll find a way to make it interesting enough for me (like playing with steam engines and gun turrets only like I'm used to now) or I just go and play something else and come back later when there's new development. ^^

I'm doing so with Prison Architect, Gnomoria as well as a bunch of other games too and I always check back on them with each update to enjoy the new stuff.



All I was saying is that solar farming/laser turrets make things too easy since they don't require any upkeep or automation process to keep them running, they don't have any downsides at all, like pollution or anything else that renders them in a bad spot, basically rendering them superior (not even a virtual choice, but rather mandatory) and thereby oversimplifying the lategame and that hoarding stuff just to hoard them isn't engaging enough for me, the later not really being part of the topic since it's mainly about the solar energy.

One of the main reasons why I think like that is that the game starts off pretty hard, as in terms you have only your bare hands and an axe to dig some coal/iron and nothing else, and becomes increasingly more difficult the more research is done because more products mean a more complex factory setup which also means more pollution and energy requirement which in return means even more pollution (if using steam engines) which attracts even more biters and puts your defense even more to the test, especially with Gun Turrets as long as their upgrades are not fully reasearched. But once solar farming/laser turret stuff kicks in the difficulty takes a nosedive to zero, since the pollution is nearly non existent which doesn't attract any biters and the laser turrets don't require any ammunition too as they are just leeching from the free energy, which I happen to find sad, but that's my very own opinion and I'll express it nonetheless, if people like it or not.

It may be intended that the late game becomes more convenient than the early game since I don't know about all the future stuff the devs may have in their mind, but in the current alpha stage with solar farming "convenience" means I'm giving up part of the core gameplay of building and maintaining a factory, which is ironically the slogan of the game.

No matter what I'll continue to play the game if that balancing problem gets changed or not... so there's nothing to worry here. ^^

[ssilk]

I recommend to play the supply challenge (payed conent) to have some taste of what might come.

[Apotheosis]

I have to say I'm pretty strongly against this idea of maintenance requirements for solar panels. Making one option simply more tedious than another is never a good way to balance player choice. Furthermore, with the way the game currently works maintenance would force the player to use robots if they wanted to use solar panels, removing some freedom in how they want to play the game. I find optimizing conveyer belt systems very satisfying and sometimes I avoid researching robots completely.

I'd also like to point out that some people seem to have mistaken solid fuel as a source of maintenance in the same way that powering generators with wood or coal is, but it isn't. Using advanced oil processing and optimal cracking a single depleted oil well can provide about 800 kW of infinite power. If you use modules optimally you can boost this to a bit more than 2 MW of infinite power per depleted well. One needs to lay down about 50 solar panels and 42 accumulators to equal this. Much like solar panels, you only need to add more oil wells when you wish to expand your power needs, not simply to restock energy resources.

[The Phoenixian]

To add a new thought, perhaps the problem is not so much that solar cells don't need mantenance as that they lack complexity. The "fire and forget" aspect removing some of the game's puzzle aspects.

If, for example solar collectors worked not as photovoltaics but instead as a solar-thermal type of power, where you would place dozens of panels alongside a oil pipe which you would use an electric pump to pass through a series of heat exchangers to boil water to power steam engines --- thus giving you three separate puzzles of efficent solar panel to pipe layouts and oil cycling, efficient heat exchange layouts, and what to do about your night power supplies --- instead of just plopping down a field of solar panels and accumulators by some power lines in proper proportion and calling it a day, how far would that go to improving the situation?

[Junion]

So turning solar panels into other ways to heat up water for steam engines..I kinna like that..and I've had a similar thought on the idea of solar collectors. In fact almost the exact same thought. Though I was thinking a 'water tower' type thing..that solar panels could link to (IE aim the sun at) that would then feed into a steam engine.

Though I'm wondering how hard that'd be to make a mod for...

[Ethribin]

The whole solar warmed water instead of boilers thing is a good idea.
Not one I realy enjoy as it more or less just means one replaces the boilers with solar panels instead of adding a new thing to the factory, making solar panels pollutionless and less efficient boilers.
I doubt anyone would realy replace the boilers with something less efficient, even if it has no polution in comparison.

Also... I dont know if that is true, but I think in real life, solar plants that work with heating up water or oil with solar power in order to power a turbine, are less efficient then solar panels who convert solar energie directly into an electric current (again, not sure about the numbers, but if I'm not mistaken, then that's how they are)
So... although an intersting idea, I think it's not what would we'd want

[Boogieman14]

I could see this work if the current solar panels were changed into solar powered boilers. That would actually fit the materials used a lot better as well (you don't make PV [photo voltaic] panels with just copper and steel). Then actual PV panels could be added, requiring some kind of rare(ish) material (a newly introduced ore, or perhaps some material that is an uncommon result from mining a common ore) to create.

[Inarion]

Also... I dont know if that is true, but I think in real life, solar plants that work with heating up water or oil with solar power in order to power a turbine, are less efficient then solar panels who convert solar energie directly into an electric current (again, not sure about the numbers, but if I'm not mistaken, then that's how they are)

When reading this, I thought "That can't be true" and did some research. It seems you are not entirely wrong there. Not entirely right, either.
Photovoltaics and solar thermal generators both seem to reach efficiencies of about 15% regarding the conversion of solar energy into electricity. (Simply heating up a fluid would yield way higher efficiencies, however: usually >60%) The exact numbers of course vary depending on the actual setup, but that's what I found.

And regarding that idea of having the solar panels heat up fluids to then power a engine: I like it.
It could even be designed in a way that this process does not work with water (or only at a lower efficiency) but requires a special fluid created from oil (or even molten salt). And of course you would not want that fluid to evaporate into the atmosphere so it would be a closed cycle and thus requiring a specific engine of its own (not the steam engine).

[The Phoenixian]

So turning solar panels into other ways to heat up water for steam engines..I kinna like that..and I've had a similar thought on the idea of solar collectors. In fact almost the exact same thought. Though I was thinking a 'water tower' type thing..that solar panels could link to (IE aim the sun at) that would then feed into a steam engine.

Though I'm wondering how hard that'd be to make a mod for...

I was thinking parabolic troughs or Fresnel reflectors mostly because those types are only a shot hop from the current paradigm but solar power towers could be pretty boss too.

The whole solar warmed water instead of boilers thing is a good idea.
Not one I realy enjoy as it more or less just means one replaces the boilers with solar panels instead of adding a new thing to the factory, making solar panels pollutionless and less efficient boilers.
I doubt anyone would realy replace the boilers with something less efficient, even if it has no polution in comparison.

Well there's [space] efficiency and then there's [material] efficiency and then there's [fuel] efficiency.

One of the interesting things here is that there are so many ways that could be made to make it work. Under the solar boiler idea one could easily have a solar boiler with multiple recipes based on working fluids each with different efficiencies such that one player could decide to have a low efficiency easy addition such as just bolting a few solar collectors to the water line in front of his steam engines to reduce his fuel consumption a bit while another player more dedicated to solar power could set up the whole system with oil or salt based working fluids, heat exchangers, and storage tanks to make a high efficiency system that would keep working through the night.

If for example direct heating of water is limited to a maximum of 85-90 degrees while salt/oil can rise to several hundred degress and power multiple heat exchangers to bring water up to a full boil it creates a place for both solar/burner hyrids that reduce but do not eliminate fuel consumption and more complicated setups with full elimination of fuel needs as well.

EDIT: ah ninjaed on a bit of that.

I could see this work if the current solar panels were changed into solar powered boilers. That would actually fit the materials used a lot better as well (you don't make PV [photo voltaic] panels with just copper and steel). Then actual PV panels could be added, requiring some kind of rare(ish) material (a newly introduced ore, or perhaps some material that is an uncommon result from mining a common ore) to create.

Yeah. Hmm... If this ore/byproduct is valuable stuff and so invokes a significant opportunity cost that could work. What might also work is if we pulled another common idea and added weather effects to make PV less reliable. One of the advangates of Solar-thermal over PV after all is that you have a number of ways to ensure you can deal with reduced sunlight and many of those already exist in the game (storing hot fluids and having backup power supplies)... though then again weather might be a bit much to add to the game for just an uncertain amont of balance on one item.

[Inarion]

... though then again weather might be a bit much to add to the game for just an uncertain amont of balance on one item.

Why only for one item? The introduction of rain would open up some interesting possibilities for such situations where you end up with a lot of free space to build your factories on but no water sources nearby. Players could build water collectors to gather all that rain and save it in enormous tanks so it would last until the next rain.
(Of course, if we could dig down for underground water - basically a different kind of water pump working exclusively on land - then water collectors would be pretty useless.)

[Boogieman14]

(Of course, if we could dig down for underground water - basically a different kind of water pump working exclusively on land - then water collectors would be pretty useless.)

Unless the digging carries an inherent risk (such as, risk of disturbing a megaworm that'll come eat your base )

[ssilk]

Well there's [space] efficiency and then there's [material] efficiency and then there's [fuel] efficiency.

I would add time as fourth limiting factor.
- time
- space
- resources
- energy/work (fuel is only a subcategory of that)

Everything else is dependent on those four limiting factors.

[n9103]

Well there's [space] efficiency and then there's [material] efficiency and then there's [fuel] efficiency.

I would add time as fourth limiting factor.
- time
- space
- resources
- energy/work (fuel is only a subcategory of that)

Everything else is dependent on those four limiting factors.

I would posit that energy and work are subcategories of time.
And also that time is (currently) the most flexible of the limits to efficiency, as it's the only one without defined limits.
Land and water are unalterable. (Limit bypassed by expanding.)
The resource amounts are unalterable. (Also bypassed with expansion.)
Time itself carries no weight other than evolving biters. (Only slows expansion for one of the other reasons. Does not force or limit anything of itself.)

[The Phoenixian]

I would add time as fourth limiting factor.
- time
- space
- resources
- energy/work (fuel is only a subcategory of that)

Everything else is dependent on those four limiting factors.

I would posit that energy and work are subcategories of time.
And also that time is (currently) the most flexible of the limits to efficiency, as it's the only one without defined limits.
Land and water are unalterable. (Limit bypassed by expanding.)
The resource amounts are unalterable. (Also bypassed with expansion.)
Time itself carries no weight other than evolving biters. (Only slows expansion for one of the other reasons. Does not force or limit anything of itself.)

And I would retort that if fuel is a subset of energy and energy is a subset of time, then as time cannot be stockpiled or stored so neither can fuel be stockpiled or stored. As fuel can be stockpiled therefore either fuel is not a subset of energy or energy is not a subset of time.

In any case, time does not strike me as a resource scarce enough to be worth considering outside of speedruns or the eventuality of competitive multiplayer.

[ssilk]

I would posit that energy and work are subcategories of time.

And also that time is (currently) the most flexible of the limits to efficiency, as it's the only one without defined limits.
Land and water are unalterable. (Limit bypassed by expanding.)
The resource amounts are unalterable. (Also bypassed with expansion.)
Time itself carries no weight other than evolving biters. (Only slows expansion for one of the other reasons. Does not force or limit anything of itself.)

Hmmmm. Well, everything is based in time. Right.
Using energy needs time (to convert energy into work). And so on. Time is a basic unit in factorio.

But energy (the energy stored in coal or the energy stored in the accus) is also a basic unit.
As well as resources, which are "there", no matter if the game is running or paused. As well as the land.

Only the change (= expansion for land or mining for resources) needs time.