Remove circuit networks

[Player 1]

I know that you won't remove circuit networks, but I'm still posting this to formally voice my strong opinion in the face of any and all opposition. You people who like circuit networks don't need to start a shitstorm over this, because you've already won. I'm just voicing my opinion.

I want the red and green wires removed, along with all combinators. Move them to a mod or something. My rationale is that these components add nothing to the actual game. Absolutely nothing. They just take up space.

I have hardly read anything from the Factorio players who use these components, but I figure that I still know this group of people - that I consider to be a very distinct group of people - by heart, having seen how some Minecraft players obssess over redstone in Minecraft. They find circuits "fun to play with", and soon enough they will build calculators, Tetris games out of lights, and huge primitive computer machines, just like in Minecraft. It gives the game a whole new reason to be "played", and people will consider it "amazing" and "wonderous".

However, these people isn't really playing the game. What they're doing, is using the game engine to create logic circuits. Other techs, and aliens, and that stuff, they don't want to be bothered with.

What they need, is a separate game. ...but I don't think they would want this, because what they're into, is "hacking" the game - abusing the game and making a mockery out of it. That's why they're doing this. I wouldn't go so far as to call them trolls, but I certainly wouldn't call them players. ...so I think it's wrong to pander to them to the point where you are implementing components that just serve to confuse actual players.

Imagine if Doom would have this. They would have rocket launchers and railguns and demons, and then they would have peaceful mode, with little arithmetic combinators, and circuit networks and altered values that ultimately did things like turn lights on or off.
Would you call it stupid? I certainly would. ...yet here we are, with this sort of cancerous growth growing at the alpha stage, shaping the game before it has even established its theme properly.

That's what I think.

[Joefesok]

So you want to remove something other people find fun because you don't think it is fun? That's a pretty cancerous way of thinking.

Your argument would have some support behind it if you had voiced it, say, when circuits were first announced, assuming they were at all. Or finding a way to talk about it while they were developed. Had that been the case, you could have saved development time from a system not really core to the gameplay of the game.

However, circuitry has already been added to the game. It's a balanced mechanic by complexity and its components being inferior to components of a similar class unless used intelligently. Circuits are useful in a number of situations, though they are somewhat rare and require experience behind the use of circuitry.

If you want a TL:DR because I feel like that's the only way you'll accidentally run into criticism, then here it is:
No.

[MCorgano]

"There's no real use to them"
What about say, disconnecting a coal mining array when the coal line is full? Mining contraptions will keep using power when idle, so turning off things when they aren't productive could be very useful. Extra spare power means extra power production that can go to lasers when you're attacked or to other useful things. That's just one use, but im sure there's others.

"I have hardly read anything from the Factorio players who use these components, but I figure that I still know this group of people"
Right, complain about something you admit you know nothing about. As your redstone comparison, sure SOME people use them to create CPU's and paint programs, but many other people use them for farms and automation... and factorio is literally ABOUT automation.

>What they're doing, is using the game engine to create logic circuits.
>they're....using the game
>using the game
That's right. They're not really playing the game, they're just playing the game. That's all.
Sarcasm aside, the point of a game is to have fun. If they are using factorio to have fun, it doesn't matter that (only?) you think they are having fun the wrong way.

"Imagine if Doom would have this."
This comparison fails at the "comparing apples to orange colored nuclear submarines" argument. Doom is a first person shooter, where you have no impact on the world around you. Factorio is completely about building a base, having an impact on the world around you, sometimes drastically changing it. Your comparison is as absurd as comparing Doom to the doom level editing tools. Maybe doom doesn't need switches and gates, but I bet you the doom level editor did, or else anything as simple as a door with a button wouldn't be possible.

Not to mention "Imagine if Doom would have..."
[*]Craftable factories that can build ammo and tanks
[*]ore mines and conveyor belts you can build
[*]the ability to place down 40 turrets to do the fighting for you
There's a lot of things that make sense in factorio and not in DOOM, and wiring bits and bobbles are one of them.

If you don't want to use it, don't. But there's no reason to remove a useful feature that other people like just because YOU don't like it.

[Player 1]

So you want to remove something other people find fun because you don't think it is fun?

Look, I can download this game into a USB stick, and then go and throw USB skipping at the nearest lake, and find it fun. That it's fun for some people, simply isn't relevant to the quality of a game, if said people aren't even interested in playing the basic game presented to them.

That's a pretty cancerous way of thinking.

If you think that, then you have absolutely no idea what cancer is. Cancer is an uncontrolled growth that hinders the basic function of an organ. Is the basic function of Factorio to build huge Tetris machines? Is it to create a giant disco light machine? No, it's not. It's survival through building a factory.

Your argument would have some support behind it if you had voiced it, say, when circuits were first announced, assuming they were at all. Or finding a way to talk about it while they were developed.

That would be before this game came out on Steam, so sorry for not wanting to give out my credit card number to parties I don't trust.

Had that been the case, you could have saved development time from a system not really core to the gameplay of the game.

Yes, but here we are, with a big mistake that should be scrapped. Sometimes mistakes are made, and the only way forward is to realize that they're mistakes.

However, circuitry has already been added to the game. It's a balanced mechanic by complexity and its components being inferior to components of a similar class unless used intelligently.

No, it's not. It's completely useless no matter how intelligent you are. You can use them to move resources around. If you need arithmetics and circuit logic to do that, then maybe you're not as intelligent as you think you are.

Circuits are useful in a number of situations, though they are somewhat rare and require experience behind the use of circuitry.

"A number of situations", you say.
Name them.
Oh, and since you keep arguing that I don't know circuit logic: I'm an electrical engineer. I've designed and built actual circuit wafers from the ground up. My IQ is also pretty high. You see, I like circuits when they do actually useful things. When they help run a digital television, I think that they're vital. ...but if you want to learn how to build circuits, there are courses you can take, and no doubt real circuit editors that you can download for that purpose. It has no business being in this game.

What about say, disconnecting a coal mining array when the coal line is full? Mining contraptions will keep using power when idle, so turning off things when they aren't productive could be very useful.

I'd rather either have mining equipment always turn off when not used, or have it constantly turned on to stress the importance of emptying the line, as added challenge. There's no need to introduce a whole new system of complexity for this.

That's just one use, but im sure there's others.

Unless there are more uses, you could simply have a breaker component that did this. There's no need to do math for it.

"I have hardly read anything from the Factorio players who use these components, but I figure that I still know this group of people"
Right, complain about something you admit you know nothing about. As your redstone comparison, sure SOME people use them to create CPU's and paint programs, but many other people use them for farms and automation... and factorio is literally ABOUT automation.

Yes, in Minecraft redstone didn't make sense because the game was all about manual labour, but in Factorio it's the opposite: In this game everything you need to automate everything, is already in place.

>What they're doing, is using the game engine to create logic circuits.
>they're....using the game
>using the game
That's right. They're not really playing the game, they're just playing the game. That's all.

There's a big difference between playing a game, and using it to have fun (as I gave an example of in the beginning of my post).

Sarcasm aside, the point of a game is to have fun. If they are using factorio to have fun, it doesn't matter that (only?) you think they are having fun the wrong way.

You can probably "play" Doom as a dating simulator if you want to, if you invent a "peaceful mode". That's still not actually playing. The theme of any game (at least with self-respect) is more than for people to have fun with it.

"Imagine if Doom would have this."
This comparison fails at the "comparing apples to orange colored nuclear submarines" argument. Doom is a first person shooter, where you have no impact on the world around you. Factorio is completely about building a base, having an impact on the world around you, sometimes drastically changing it. Your comparison is as absurd as comparing Doom to the doom level editing tools. Maybe doom doesn't need switches and gates, but I bet you the doom level editor did, or else anything as simple as a door with a button wouldn't be possible.

I stand by this comparison. Circuit logic has as much to do with factorio, as it has to do with Doom. If you want logic, you can probably do that in the Factorio level editor.
...but as I said: The devs can move these sort of things to an optional mod, where it doesn't get in the way of real players trying to actually play the game.

Not to mention "Imagine if Doom would have..."
[*]Craftable factories that can build ammo and tanks
[*]ore mines and conveyor belts you can build
[*]the ability to place down 40 turrets to do the fighting for you

Yes, and imagine if all of that didn't actually matter to shooting monsters. That would be a complete waste of time.
Imagine if Factorio could be beaten by simply heading out to the monster nests and destroy them all, without building the factory, and that that would be a winning condition, and that all that the factories ultimately did, was to turn lights on and off in pretty patterns. If that would be the case, I would argue for the building of factories to be removed in this game, because they would be useless and overly complicated.

If you don't want to use it, don't. But there's no reason to remove a useful feature that other people like just because YOU don't like it.

Fine: In that case, implement cake. I like cake. Cake is fun to me. You will have a cake ingredient menu sitting in your building screen, that you will never use, but it will look complicated, and only when you fully understand cake, will you see how pointless it is to you. You will craft ingredients wondering what they do sometimes, bewildered over them, but they're there just because I find cake fun. If you don't like cake, don't build cakes.

[ratchetfreak]

So you want to remove something other people find fun because you don't think it is fun?

Look, I can download this game into a USB stick, and then go and throw USB skipping at the nearest lake, and find it fun. That it's fun for some people, simply isn't relevant to the quality of a game, if said people aren't even interested in playing the basic game presented to them.

That's a pretty cancerous way of thinking.

If you think that, then you have absolutely no idea what cancer is. Cancer is an uncontrolled growth that hinders the basic function of an organ. Is the basic function of Factorio to build huge Tetris machines? Is it to create a giant disco light machine? No, it's not. It's survival through building a factory.

and your thinking will result in hindering the basic progress of factorio development

What about say, disconnecting a coal mining array when the coal line is full? Mining contraptions will keep using power when idle, so turning off things when they aren't productive could be very useful.

I'd rather either have mining equipment always turn off when not used, or have it constantly turned on to stress the importance of emptying the line, as added challenge. There's no need to introduce a whole new system of complexity for this.

That's just one use, but im sure there's others.

Unless there are more uses, you could simply have a breaker component that did this. There's no need to do math for it.

and how would that breaker component know when to cut power? simplest mechanic is to wire it up to something that will give a signal to shut it down

"I have hardly read anything from the Factorio players who use these components, but I figure that I still know this group of people"
Right, complain about something you admit you know nothing about. As your redstone comparison, sure SOME people use them to create CPU's and paint programs, but many other people use them for farms and automation... and factorio is literally ABOUT automation.

Yes, in Minecraft redstone didn't make sense because the game was all about manual labour, but in Factorio it's the opposite: In this game everything you need to automate everything, is already in place.

and circuit network help with the automation. Especially once trains become controllable with circuits.

>What they're doing, is using the game engine to create logic circuits.
>they're....using the game
>using the game
That's right. They're not really playing the game, they're just playing the game. That's all.

There's a big difference between playing a game, and using it to have fun (as I gave an example of in the beginning of my post).

Sarcasm aside, the point of a game is to have fun. If they are using factorio to have fun, it doesn't matter that (only?) you think they are having fun the wrong way.

You can probably "play" Doom as a dating simulator if you want to, if you invent a "peaceful mode". That's still not actually playing. The theme of any game (at least with self-respect) is more than for people to have fun with it.

so you are anti-fun and want to force people to "play the game" as it was "meant to be played"? Dude, emergent gameplay (like you get with circuit networks) is a big reason why people like factorio. It's also why people like minecraft, there are tons of tricks that are neat and quite powerful like being able to automate farming.

Your argument would have some support behind it if you had voiced it, say, when circuits were first announced, assuming they were at all. Or finding a way to talk about it while they were developed.

That would be before this game came out on Steam, so sorry for not wanting to give out my credit card number to parties I don't trust.

You only needed paypal to buy it and you could do it using just a wire transfer (no credit card required)

Had that been the case, you could have saved development time from a system not really core to the gameplay of the game.

Yes, but here we are, with a big mistake that should be scrapped. Sometimes mistakes are made, and the only way forward is to realize that they're mistakes.

However, circuitry has already been added to the game. It's a balanced mechanic by complexity and its components being inferior to components of a similar class unless used intelligently.

No, it's not. It's completely useless no matter how intelligent you are. You can use them to move resources around. If you need arithmetics and circuit logic to do that, then maybe you're not as intelligent as you think you are.

Circuits are useful in a number of situations, though they are somewhat rare and require experience behind the use of circuitry.

"A number of situations", you say.
Name them.
Oh, and since you keep arguing that I don't know circuit logic: I'm an electrical engineer. I've designed and built actual circuit wafers from the ground up. My IQ is also pretty high. You see, I like circuits when they do actually useful things. When they help run a digital television, I think that they're vital. ...but if you want to learn how to build circuits, there are courses you can take, and no doubt real circuit editors that you can download for that purpose. It has no business being in this game.

"Imagine if Doom would have this."
This comparison fails at the "comparing apples to orange colored nuclear submarines" argument. Doom is a first person shooter, where you have no impact on the world around you. Factorio is completely about building a base, having an impact on the world around you, sometimes drastically changing it. Your comparison is as absurd as comparing Doom to the doom level editing tools. Maybe doom doesn't need switches and gates, but I bet you the doom level editor did, or else anything as simple as a door with a button wouldn't be possible.

I stand by this comparison. Circuit logic has as much to do with factorio, as it has to do with Doom. If you want logic, you can probably do that in the Factorio level editor.
...but as I said: The devs can move these sort of things to an optional mod, where it doesn't get in the way of real players trying to actually play the game.

Not to mention "Imagine if Doom would have..."
[*]Craftable factories that can build ammo and tanks
[*]ore mines and conveyor belts you can build
[*]the ability to place down 40 turrets to do the fighting for you

Yes, and imagine if all of that didn't actually matter to shooting monsters. That would be a complete waste of time.
Imagine if Factorio could be beaten by simply heading out to the monster nests and destroy them all, without building the factory, and that that would be a winning condition, and that all that the factories ultimately did, was to turn lights on and off in pretty patterns. If that would be the case, I would argue for the building of factories to be removed in this game, because they would be useless and overly complicated.

If you don't want to use it, don't. But there's no reason to remove a useful feature that other people like just because YOU don't like it.

Fine: In that case, implement cake. I like cake. Cake is fun to me. You will have a cake ingredient menu sitting in your building screen, that you will never use, but it will look complicated, and only when you fully understand cake, will you see how pointless it is to you. You will craft ingredients wondering what they do sometimes, bewildered over them, but they're there just because I find cake fun. If you don't like cake, don't build cakes.

tl;dr you don't like circuits because you don't understand them/don't know how to use them.

I'll admit that they don't really get to do much at this point but that'll be fixed in 0.13

[Hakusho]

...My rationale is that these components add nothing to the actual game. Absolutely nothing. They just take up space...

Outpost status display
So i dont think things like that would make sense in a game only about circuit logic? Why do you want people to stop using their brain to squeeze some extra spice our of their base?

[ssilk]

I know that you won't remove circuit networks, but I'm still posting this to formally voice my strong opinion in the face of any and all opposition. You people who like circuit networks don't need to start a shitstorm over this, because you've already won. I'm just voicing my opinion.

...Moved to general discussion, cause that is not a suggestion.

And JFI: See http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-122 and especially http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-123

So I mean it's not worth to discuss this; I recommend to wait until v0.13.

[Klonan]

We don't generally remove fleshed out and useful mechanics from the game,
Personally i never really use red/green wire and combinators,
But they add a lot for the people who like to play with factorio this way

[Koub]

Imagine I ask for the removal of all aspects of the game I'm not interested into and have never used (or maybe tried to use once and stopped right away) ...
No more trains, no more combinators, no more multiplayer, no more combat robots, no more signal network, ...

... Well that's quite a lot, and I'm sure many people would miss all this.

[MeduSalem]

My rationale is that these components add nothing to the actual game. Absolutely nothing. They just take up space.

What the...?

I mean yeah, some of the lightshows people create are completely unncessary except for showing off, most of them are just proof of concepts and to show possibilities.

But there are real applications of the circuit network stuff too... Like Oil Priority management (there are ways to do it without Circuit network but they are somewhat ugly, cumbersome and often unreliable), as well as Energy Production (Shutting down Steam Power plants for example), they help with automatation in general (Logistic Network signals alone don't always work) and in the future they will provide even more help in actually managing your factory in a way you simply can't do it currently (like controlling a lot of trains better for example).


Apart from that I get a strong feeling that this thread is more a meta-discussion. Discussing for the sake of discussing with nothing actually being achieved except some bad blood.

[Hakusho]

...Apart from that I get strong feeling that this thread is more a meta-discussion. Discussing for the sake of discussing with nothing actually being achieved except some bad blood.

Maybe we should just show why the circuit network is a useful thing (like you did already). Maybe someone just needs to be convinced

[Tankh]

Hahaha what a completely useless thread.

Instead of removing circuit networks, can we just remove OP instead?
My rationale is that OP add nothing to the actual game. Absolutely nothing. They just take up space.


Edit: ok I'll add a few examples of good use.

Balancing oil production. Instead of manually activating/deactivating chemical plant that cracks heavy->light oil, or light oil-> petroleum, just add small circuit network with a bit of logic to only run light oil cracking when you have more light oil than petroleum, and heavy oil cracking only when you have more heavy oil than light oil. And so on.

Balancing module production: Imagine you have assembly plants for producing modules. instead of the first plant taking all circuits off the belt and producing modules until the chest is full before any other assembly plant can start producing modules, add a small circuit network to only produce modules of a certain type only if you have less (or equal amounts) of modules as the other types, otherwise stop.

and so on.

[Bisa]

Apart from that I get a strong feeling that this thread is more a meta-discussion. Discussing for the sake of discussing with nothing actually being achieved except some bad blood.

myea, also - wow, how can one think a feature as non-intrusive as this actually is, is worth voicing concerns for? Like others have said already, if you do not like the circuit network all you have to do is ignore it, much like I ignore combat robotics - but will I want it removed from the game? ... no, I don't care that they are there, if I ever need them I am free to use them but until then I just ignore them.

TL;DR
I am amazed one even cares for something this non-intrusive

[Joefesok]

Oh hey, I figured this wasn't gonna get that popular.

So, to continue beating this dead horse:

Similar to OP's suggestion that redstone in Minecraft is worthless, circuitry in Factorio is supposedly worthless.

OP's argument is that redstone and circuitry don't contribute to the core gameplay loop, simply being an addition. Which is, to a degree, correct. However, there's a point to be made in how both these systems assist the core gameplay loop in being fun.

The point of minecraft is to build cool stuff. This doesn't necessarily require redstone, but people can use redstone for it. It helps the gameplay be more cool and helps the core gameplay loop be satisfied in more varied ways.

In factorio, you build automated complexes- factories. This doesn't necessarily require a factory-wide circuit network, but making one helps accomplish the goal of automation. It helps the core gameplay loop by adding more functions to do automation.

Neither of these examples necessarily need to be in the game. However, they assist the core gameplay- which is what everybody accesses and you think is all that matters, presumably because you find these two functions inaccessible- and in that way deserve to stay in the game for their utility.

[Kewlhotrod]

I don't understand why you would want them removed, just don't use them. what the actual fuck?

edit //
I want the fourm user "Player 1" removed from fourm, because you people who like player 1 don't need to start a shitstorm over this, because you've already won. I'm just voicing my opinion. but I'm still posting this to formally voice my strong opinion in the face of any and all opposition. My rationale is that this person add nothing to the actual game discussion. Absolutely nothing. They just take up bandwidth space.

[Pappus]

I don't understand why you would want them removed, just don't use them. what the actual fuck?

Why cant you understand this simple thing? They use up space.

Feels like someone tried to do something useful with the circuits, couldn't handle it and now wants to throw it away for everyone.

[mooklepticon]

However, these people isn't really playing the game. What they're doing, is using the game engine to create logic circuits. Other techs, and aliens, and that stuff, they don't want to be bothered with.

That's what I think.

What hubris to think that you're the arbiter of the definition of "playing the game" is.

*slow clap* Excellent troll, sir.

[Joefesok]

So unless OP responds sometime in the next, I dunno, day? Can we just get a lock on this thread. OP's point has been safely refuted a number of times and this thread is now just beating the hell out of some dead horses.

[Player 1]

and your thinking will result in hindering the basic progress of factorio development

I really, really doubt that.

and how would that breaker component know when to cut power? simplest mechanic is to wire it up to something that will give a signal to shut it down

I have no idea why you'd want an external sensor, and not just have drills shut down automatically, but you could use a sensor to sense whether a resource was in front of it. It would justify using ONE type of signal wire, but it's certainly not a good justification for it, since when a drill should stop, is indicated by it not being able to extrude anymore resources. That's a very natural signal to stop.

and circuit network help with the automation. Especially once trains become controllable with circuits.

Knowing when to call trains, is a good point, but you can automate that by having a train be called whenever resources start pouring into one of its stations. I could give you a single piece of green wire running from a smart chest to an end station track. That's still no use for combinators.

so you are anti-fun and want to force people to "play the game" as it was "meant to be played"?

Hey, porn is fun too. We should have porn in Factorio. ...and cake. ...and cocaine. ...and we should be able to ride the aliens like horses, because that's fun. ...and play golf - golf is fun. If you don't like these features, then you're clearly "anti-fun".

You clearly don't have any idea of what a game concept is. The game concept of Factorio isn't "This is a fun game, where players enter an amusement park, on a fun planet, where they try to have as much mindless fun as possible.". The game concept is survival against aliens.

Dude, emergent gameplay (like you get with circuit networks) is a big reason why people like factorio.

I get the image of Factorio standing on a street corner going "Won't somebody please like me?! I'll do anything for somebody to like me!". ...but in my mind Factorio can be something MORE than a player bitch.

It's also why people like minecraft, there are tons of tricks that are neat and quite powerful like being able to automate farming.

Farming is ALREADY automated in Factorio. ...and in Minecraft, automation went against the concept of Minecraft. It ultimately made Notch quit in disgust. Minecraft was about surviving nature - something you'll never understand, now when Minecraft has lost all sense of dignity and integrity. I've met prostitutes with more dignity than Minecraft.

You only needed paypal to buy it and you could do it using just a wire transfer (no credit card required)

That would mean setting up a separate account, and getting a credit card. You have no idea how hard it is to buy something online without a credit card.
Besides, that's a really poor point to argue. The game is still in Alpha, so theoretically, I'm far from too late. However, in practice, this is like me discovering that my girlfriend has had "just TEN" partners before her: It's a lost cause. It has no sense of dignity left. At this point the devs are clearly pandering to the largest demographic who wants to "have fun" with it.

tl;dr you don't like circuits because you don't understand them/don't know how to use them.

No (like I wrote but you refused to read) quite the opposite: I don't like circuits because I KNOW how to use them. I KNOW that they're not needed.

I'll admit that they don't really get to do much at this point but that'll be fixed in 0.13

Second part of the circuit network extension (power switch, gate, train station, accumulator and logistic network integration to circuit network)

Oh, wow. They're really going full retard with Factorio. That would mean that accumulators would be nothing but an actual accumulator component. That would mean that using circuit wafers to craft them, would be redundant. ...and at this point pretty much EVERYTHING requires intergrated circuit wafers to run.
...but apparently no, no more of that. No more automation. Now players will be expected to build everything from the ground up.
You know, if done properly, I could technically see it working, but then it wouldn't be Factorio anymore. They should have started with logic gates to begin with, if they wanted to do THAT concept.


As for the rest of you: I'll get around to your replies in due time. This thread really took off while I slept. I saw people calling for my removal even. Triggering intensifies...

Outpost status display

So this guy built an entire building to do something that a quick look at the pollution on the minimap could have solved. ...or taking a look on the empty transporter belts. ...but no, somehow his base was so incredibly huge, that his map had to cover more ground than the visible map, in order for him to reach the final tech. WTF? Next, will Factorio implement braille? No, not for blind people - for players who are too "clever" to turn on the lights at home.
He's building entire buildings (or actually residential blocks) dedicated to compensating for his failures, instead of admitting that he's doing something wrong.

So i dont think things like that would make sense in a game only about circuit logic?

No, it WOULDN'T make sense in a game about circuit logic. ...but Factorio - its basic concept - is not about circuit logic. It's about factory building. A logic gate, or a comparator, is not the size of a building. Not even in the medieval times, were there ever any resemblence of a logical trigger, that was the size of a whole building. ...and this game is supposed to be set in the future, where IC circuits exist. That's throwing scale and realism out the window. The magnitude of IC logic that could fill an entire warehouse in real life, is indescribable. That's how unfathomably "clever" these circuit people are.

Why do you want people to stop using their brain to squeeze some extra spice our of their base?

I'm asking you the same question. You don't need these things. They could update Factorio to where chests stop calling trains when they're empty. That would solve the above problem.

[Joefesok]

Alright, now the thread is just OP blatantly trolling, being generally wrong, and above all else shitposting. Can we get a lock and temp posting ban for OP until he learns to calm down and read other people's opinions?