User Dev Proposal:Depth system for Factorio

[Alien_Squasher]

Personally, Devs, I'd like to see a series of procedurally generated z levels, even with an option to build upwards like a skyscraper or something. I think this would add a depth that, (no offense) has been lacking for a little while, but I would also like to caution you against making this Z level system too complex, as it would detract from Factorio's beautiful contrast of simplicity in theory and complexity in reality. I guess a good way to go about this Z level system would be to have several different aboveground layers, which would allow for mountains to be created to give the game a slightly more realistic feel, but at the same time keeping the amount of mountains generated to a controlled level where you have plenty of room to build factories on plains, (Like you do now) but mountains to build on and mine in, generally confined to mountain ranges with a few loose mountains here and there.. I personally think that the aboveground ore deposits are a good way to go about things, but I think you should make mines in mountains have a higher yield, albeit a slower mining speed until you upgrade your mining technology. and have the Z system work like this:
*Mountains which range from small hills to Mt. Everest
*A digging system which allows you to enter belowground levels via constructing a mineshaft, or other entry method, and have a number of procedurally generated levels belowground with cave like appearances, and each one of these levels acting like separate "worlds" with different appearances based on what Z level you are on (IE Lava lakes in Z -40 and underground lakes/rivers down to Z -39 and ores generated to the locale/Z number of that level.)
*A Skyscraper system which works similarly to the digging system in that you may place elevators/stairs/other entry methods in one floor of your factory that is walled using a separate kind of wall from normal ones (Structural walls?) that requires a closed shape with structural walls/gates that defines that there is a Z level above this, the only difference from the digging system being that you can see the regular world (Z 0) with a depth to represent that you are looking down upon it rather than it appearing flat.
*A mountain system that works exactly like the digging system, with the only difference being that it shows the normal terrain like the skyscraper system, and includes the ability to dig out of the mountain and interact with the world one Z level below where you currently are
*Bridging the gaps in the Z level logistics issue (IE getting an iron ore supply from a mine on level -19 to level 0 for smelting using something akin to the elevator system, all except with something akin to underground belts which utilize a certain length of x or y length to represent a belt angled upward in addition to the Z level climb (say 4 levels/belt) And for logistics bots/other bots you can either: use the mineshaft system or add in a special port for robots to descend/ascend. Same way for vehicles, and aliens.
*Mineshaft depth descent can be configured by clicking on it, and having a +- system for how deep you want to go. Same with the belts which ascend/descend.
As for the lategame resources I think that would not work. I think you should configure it where you have upgrades of mining technology in a single miner like the electric miner, that gets upgraded gradually like the weapons with a +x% for efficcency/speed instead of damage , and certain upgrades that allow you to tap into resources which you couldn't have harvested before, (IE take titanium ore from Bob's mods, and make that require a titanium extraction upgrade be researched but still keep the one miner mines all approach) And I know this sounds a lot like the modules system, but think about it, as time progresses you should theoretically, become better at mining things faster and getting more from a resource node than you did at the beginning if you research it, without the need to manually upgrade things using modules. That being said, it would also complicate things because making something more powerful as you go along makes it consume more energy, which is why I am going to suggest that you implement instead new modules for mining certain late game ores and then a miner module capacity upgrade system instead of hard upgrades, as this allows for a more modular (Pun intended that was awful for a joke...) approach, and allows for technological innovation as well. I also encourage you to expand the module system further to represent more technological innovation.

However, whatever you decide to do I must ask that you please keep a setting implemented in the world generator for a flat world, like it is now, because some people like that, and various settings for mountains and an enablement/disablement of the z system. This way you hit the largest sales base in addition to making a great game that many people can enjoy, and so in the end, we all get what we're asking for with the Z system.

Thanks for reading, Hope this helps,

Thad.

(Note, this is taken from the hidden ores development proposal, but that is a very old post so I decided to repost it so it would be seen by people instead of passed over.)

[Hannu]

In my opinion 2D space is essential in Factorio. It creates logistic challenge. In 3D Factorio's recipes would be far too trivial. It would be very much like world with complete bot logistics. When I play with Bob's and other complex mods I think sometimes that 3D would be nice. But even those recipes are so simple that 3D would be more boring after initial interest. On the other hand, real world's complex 3D logistic problems are so complicated that they would not fit into games. If you build a rocket factory you need an army of professional engineers to plan logistics. And there is another army of planners in every factory in whole production chain beginning from ore mines.

Some kind of 3D logistic game would certainly be interesting, but it should be planned for 3D from beginning. It should also be so complex that player would need engineering education, but it could not be commercial success and is therefore completely unrealistic. Computing power would also be a severe problem in such game. Even entities would be very simple boxes with minimal number of polygons, they would easily need an order of magnitude larger polygon count. That game would need high end gaming desktop PC and very advanced (read: expensive) programming to be able to store and update hundreds of thousands of entities. I would not hold my breath during waiting that someone releases such a game.

[ssilk]

Moved from General to Suggestions.

And I point to viewtopic.php?f=80&t=12771 Terrain elevation, hills and mountains with fake cliffs

[Alien_Squasher]

+Hannu,

I was thinking more of take the original Fallout, and make it into factorio almost with levels that interact only to a certain degree, IE: Keep factorio factorio but add in multiple "Worlds" stacked on top of each other with different resources, maybe different enemies, and so on, and a simple 3D system that is a mere optical illusion. Hence Fake cliffs and mountains that literally just define the boundaries of a separate level when on that level above the normal world, you can see the normal world, but can't interact with it. So it'd still be factorio, but like a fallout 1 hybrid with the way levels work, with it not being one full big world where you can see and work with everything. I did not define this clearly enough in the OP.

[Alien_Squasher]

+Ssilk

Exactly like that, But, with a difference where you can possibly go inside mountains via "Mine Entrances" That show a sprite of a tunnel entrance using something akin to a Sim city 2000 visual representation but redefined in the fact that you may enter the mountain as a different level or "World" where you cannot see what is outside the mountain, and space is limited by the size of the mountain rather than unlimited like the outside world. With terrain levels working like the command and conquer games.

[Yoyobuae]

Isn't the "stacked worlds" system already possible using the multiple surfaces like Factorissimo mod uses? The issue is that it probably be really hard to generate that kind of stuff procedurally while remaining consistent.

I personally would prefer an elevation system more similar to what some old RTS games implemented. Dark Reign had a particularly interesting implementation. Each tile had a height. Where height changes there's a slope (which was visible in the tile brightness). Different units could climb different levels of slopes. And terrain could block line of sight.

What's interesting for factorio is the effect on unit movement. The player would have some climbing ability, biters would have more. Vehicles would have less. Units (including biters) moving up a slope would be slowed down. So defenses would work better on higher terrain.

Maybe belts speed would also be affected by slopes. Trains also should be affected. It allows for a neat fuel saving trick where train stations are built on slightly higher terrain. As the train is reaching station it is slowed down by the upward slope, and then when it leaves it accelerates easier due to downward slope.

Liquid flow should definitely be affected. Maybe some kind of hydro power could be possible, with the amount generated being proportional to the pressure (with 0 power generated at pressure coming out of offshore-pump, to avoid free energy issues).

And in true Factorio style it should be possible to manipulate the terrain height. Have a digger which lowers terrain height but it generates tons (literally) of earth. That same earth can be then dumped elsewhere to raise height of terrain, using some other building (dumper? earth compacter?).

[Alien_Squasher]

-Yoyobaue; (Hope I spelled that correctly)

Yes, but the goal isn't to be consistent. While this has evolved to be more take an old command and conquer, and throw it in a blender with factorio, then launch that into space, I still think that we should have at least one, if not more Z levels below the main map, Because you'd be using an entirely different world generation mode (Caves instead of land) and in mountains using something akin to the factorissmo mod which I have recently tried. I think if the dev of Factorissmo worked with the devs of factorio they could easily figure out a system for going into mountains/skyscrapers using something akin to the existent mod. I simply suggested either because then it adds a whole new challenge and a little more complexity and diversity to the otherwise a little bland (No offense, and don't get me wrong I love factorio) world generation system, because a mountain truly breaks up the monotony of a flat landscape, this is why mountainous regions in real life are so sought after property wise. And A z level system would allow the devs of factorio to implement many more features, especially in the case of electrical generation, which (No offense again! I'm just trying to be fair devs, I'm sorry, I know you work hard!) is lacking, as underground layers mean geothermal possibilities for power (Magma veins that heat up water?) and mountains would allow for volcanoes (MOAR POWER!) so it adds in new electrical generation solutions for those giant as hell bases. In addition to that a Z level system would most definitely make oil extraction A TON MORE FUN because then you have a slightly more realistic oil system.