Cliff explosives

[Tinyboss]

In any case you don't have an argument against cliff explosives being blue tech in both space age and vanilla, you only have a "nuh uh" when people say they really want cliff tech. Which is not at all persuasive.

That's not true, and you can see for yourself that I've made my argument in this thread. It's a long thread, though, so I'll repeat it here:

We can visit the first three planets in any order. Not only will getting their tech in a different order in my next run feel different, but EACH planet is going to feel different, too, based on what I have. That's good gameplay. It takes something away to move cliff explosives earlier so that we always have them on every planet, regardless of order.

You are very space constrained on Fulgora, but you can get a bit more usable space with cliff explosives. So you have a choice to make...deal with the cliffs if you want mech armor early, or put off the mech armor and go to Vulcanus first, for an easier time on Fulgora. And Gleba is certainly going to feel different if you have, or don't have, the mech armor. These tradeoffs are valuable and interesting.

Whether you like my argument or are convinced by it, or not, you can't say I don't have one!

[HadesSupreme]

You could just as easily "make it feel different" by making it yellow science, which is optional to get before visiting other planets (and in fact an achievement requires you to avoid until finishing one planet). Or just don't use them. Part of Factorio gameplay is deciding not to use stuff like lasers, or solar, or modules, or w/e and enjoying that style.

There's no logical justification to nerf players with Space Age at all. Factorio devs could have just as easily decided that nuclear should be on another planet, or solar, or modules, or tanks, or w/e, it would still be a nonsensical idea to nerf players like that.

[Tinyboss]

It's essential enough to be blue science in the base game. That's the start of the midgame. Non-essential techs are purple and yellow science in base game

This lets me know for sure that you and I aren't thinking the same thing about the word "essential"! Not saying that makes either of us wrong, but it's good to make sure we're communicating clearly. I'd call something "essential" if you can't win without researching it. E.g., rocketry.

There is plenty of non-essential tech in blue science and even lower in the base game. Just off the top of my head...lamps, the car, the circuit network, trains, bots, modules, solar power, nuclear power (I'm not sure if I'm remembering that one correctly). I think it's very clear that just being blue science in no way qualifies anything as "essential".

[Tinyboss]

Or just don't use them. Part of Factorio gameplay is deciding not to use stuff like lasers, or solar, or modules, or w/e and enjoying that style.

Of course we can decide to do self-imposed challenges. That in no way means that the developers don't have a vision for the challenges imposed on us by the game. "You can decide not to use it, so we should have it unlocked very early" could be applied anywhere. But the devs clearly don't think that would make for a better game.

There's no logical justification to nerf players with Space Age at all. Factorio devs could have just as easily decided that nuclear should be on another planet, or solar, or modules, or tanks, or w/e, it would still be a nonsensical idea to nerf players like that.

I don't find any of those nonsensical. Maybe not the choice I'd make, but especially for nuclear, I can see it being interesting. It's easy enough to go to space without nuclear, and it's a huge game changer when you get it. That could work pretty well, especially if there was another easier tier of planet for stuff like that. That could totally work.

[CyberCider]

It's essential enough to be blue science in the base game. That's the start of the midgame. Non-essential techs are purple and yellow science in base game and that's where the tech tree splits and gives you the choice of which path to take first (arguably military tech also falls into this category).

People want to build big factories. Cliffs get in the way of this. It's that simple. Especially people who play with increased tech costs.

In any case you don't have an argument against cliff explosives being blue tech in both space age and vanilla, you only have a "nuh uh" when people say they really want cliff tech. Which is not at all persuasive.

“Essential enough to be blue science”
So, what, are lamps extra essential because they’re red science? Is belt immunity equipment essential because it’s green science?

And the “big factories” thing… Are you sure you’ve actually tried it yourself, or are you just speaking for other people? In case you weren’t aware, you’re supposed to at least beat the game first before deciding to build big. Trying to build any kind of “big factory” before planet sciences is a waste of time. There are other, much more “essential” technologies there. T3 modules, artillery, biolabs, spidertrons…

[hazardland]

So what you are saying is you do not want to automate space platforms to provide explosives everywhere? Because you are urged to do so either way, first you need science packs regularly imported on Nauvis and than you need artillery materials for Nauvis because without artillery you can not setup automated defense outposts to the condition where you can forget about Nauvis and concentrate on other platforms

Also it seems kind of thematic that character learns to deal with cliffs on the planet where they are most natural and mostly annoying because they limit in space on Vulcanus

[AileTheAlien]

I can see it being interesting that nuclear was somewhere other than Nauvis. That could work pretty well, especially if there was another easier tier of planet for stuff like that.

Actually, if there were an easier "first planet" to go to before Gleba/Vulcanus/Fulgora, I wouldn't mind having different tiers of cliff explosive. There could be a moon of Nauvis, basically like our moon, with weak easy-to-explode cliffs, no enemies, but poor resources. I'd make it pretty sparse so you have to use trains. Although it'd need to have at least a thin atmosphere, since there's no electric trains, but it'd be fun. So the cliff explosive tech would be Nauvis' Moon, Nauvis/Fulgora/Gleba, then Vulcanus.