Control Power Connections by Coloring Power Poles (with Lamps)

Post by **ssilk** » Sat May 18, 2019 11:09 pm

TL;DR

Place colored-lamps besided poles makes, that poles can connect power only to poles, which have a lamp of the same color besides.

What ?

- A new item is needed. Let's say colored lamps.
- If you place such a colored lamp directly besides any pole, that pole will connect power only with a pole, which has a lamp of the same color placed besides.
- The lamps are "always on" (no condition with circuits needed - makes no sense to have lamps, that change their color), which enables to have a second usage for them making colored areas or nice looking streets etc.
- If implemented like that, there should be an advanced power-switch, which implements a threshold: Two conditions, one for turing off and a second for turning on, to avoid flickering.

With just one extra lamp-color it would enable to create power-networks, that will make extra power networks "useable" and "reliable". With two or three lamp-colors it would enable extremly complex power switching constructs. I would not implement more than three or four types of lamp-colors, cause for every color you need a new item (for the easiest way of implementation just with some new entities for the lamps).

Why ?

Currently it is not possible to store the power connections in a blueprint. The devs said two (?) years ago, they will never implement that power-connections are stored in blueprints. For some reasons.
It is also very difficult to create constructions, which are intelligently electrified by the power-switch. One misplaced power pole and you reconnect the extra network with the rest. But in my current game I played a lot around with such electric networks despite all difficulties: I turned parts of the factory off for if the power is was too low.

And that was really a big game-changer! That brings in a very cool element, that the factory works only so fast, that you can afford it and you get rid from any serious power problems (by the sake of lower production of course, but that is the sense of it of course).

Inspired by viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47949

PS: I think this could be implemented as a mod. Basically not so difficult, despite that you need to reimplement the wiring of the power-cables. Does anybody have an idea how to hook elegantly into ther poles-wiring? I mean instead of onEntityBuild()?

Deadlock989 · Post by **Deadlock989** » Sun May 19, 2019 9:51 am

I honestly don't see the need for this - it is not all that difficult to space things out properly. For me personally, it would be a huge pain laying a special lamp next to every single pole I wanted to differentiate, like, really fiddly and irritating and space-consuming and completely unlike any other mechanic that exists in the game. Why not coloured poles?

Post by **ssilk** » Mon May 20, 2019 11:35 am

Colored Poles: I thought about it, of course. The problem is, that there are many poles, so you need a second (third) entity-set of poles. About 10 more entities to make this really useful (and much more with mods that includes more new poles). Versus 2 more entities (2 lamps).

How about placing it ON a pole? Technically no big problem.

mrvn · Post by **mrvn** » Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 pm

How about clicking on a pole to open the electrical display. Then at the side there is a side window with the option to assign the pole an icon. Poles then only connect with poles that have the same icon (including none). You can assign "green" to a pole if you want colors. Or "Coal" for powering the coal miners and so on.

No extra entity needed and everything inheriting from power pole will have the setting.

For extra credit show the icon for each pole in alt-view.

Qon · Post by **Qon** » Mon May 20, 2019 10:51 pm

mrvn wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 pm How about clicking on a pole to open the electrical display. Then at the side there is a side window with the option to assign the pole an icon. Poles then only connect with poles that have the same icon (including none). You can assign "green" to a pole if you want colors. Or "Coal" for powering the coal miners and so on.

No extra entity needed and everything inheriting from power pole will have the setting.

For extra credit show the icon for each pole in alt-view.

It's an interesting suggestion @ssilk but mrvn's ideas are an improvement I think. Might be a bit harder to add as a mod though I think.

Post by **ssilk** » Tue May 21, 2019 3:28 pm

Yah, harder to implement, notheless I think they would be worth trying it as modder.

For implementation (as mod):
- For modding we need to open two windows: one for electric network and one new window for this feature.
- Another (more elegant?) way would be to have a tool for that. Tool enables also to set a number of poles.
- I think it would make things easier, if there are only some symbols you can choose from. Just colors. I think it is not needed to mix more than 3 networks in an area.
- Optical feedback: If we are using only colors, then the pole can "shine" in that color (very short range, not useable to light up the area). If any item can be taken: we need an icon on the pole in ALT-mode. Or something like that.
- There should be a copy/paste-feature to simpler copy the choosen item from one pole to others.

eradicator · Post by **eradicator** » Tue May 21, 2019 4:18 pm

mrvn wrote: ↑Mon May 20, 2019 1:05 pm No extra entity needed and everything inheriting from power pole will have the setting.

You still need an extra invisible entity for every pole to store the "icon", and if you want to be able to see the icons in alt-view then you have to use an entity that can do that.
Permanently visible icons might be possible with LuaRendering, but switching those with alt-mode would be too expensive even *if* it was possible, which i think it is not without even more hacks.

Colored poles aren't that bad. You just need a good method to switch between them so the player doesn't have to carry more than one item. Maybe some sort of rotation abuse? next_direction?

Totally different method: a "cable free zone" floor tile that doesn't allow any cables to run above it. Requires only one additional tile, and can be placed any shape you want. Wouldn't work as good as colored poles in small cramped areas, but if all you want is to protect your blueprint from connecting to the outside...

Post by **ssilk** » Wed May 22, 2019 1:34 pm

Rotation: Well, maybe for a mod, but who would understand such a crude game mechanismn? And it doesn't work for poles vs. big power pole, cause it has different sizes.

eradicator wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 4:18 pm Totally different method: a "cable free zone" floor tile that doesn't allow any cables to run above it. Requires only one additional tile, and can be placed any shape you want. Wouldn't work as good as colored poles in small cramped areas, but if all you want is to protect your blueprint from connecting to the outside...

Nah,

For me it wouldn't work in cramped areas, too. And if there is no acceptance for a new entity like a lamp, which needs just one extra tile per pole, why should there be acceptance for a "wall"-like construct? And if you need to layer two networks? For complex power setups?

mrvn · Post by **mrvn** » Wed May 22, 2019 4:55 pm

eradicator wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 4:18 pm You still need an extra invisible entity for every pole to store the "icon", and if you want to be able to see the icons in alt-view then you have to use an entity that can do that.

I don't define any extra entity for inserters, spitters, chests or combinators for the alt view. The game engine draws that for me. And just like any modded chest has that icon ever modded power pole should simply have it too if the game engine implements the idea..

ssilk wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 1:34 pm Rotation: Well, maybe for a mod, but who would understand such a crude game mechanismn? And it doesn't work for poles vs. big power pole, cause it has different sizes.
eradicator wrote: ↑Tue May 21, 2019 4:18 pm Totally different method: a "cable free zone" floor tile that doesn't allow any cables to run above it. Requires only one additional tile, and can be placed any shape you want. Wouldn't work as good as colored poles in small cramped areas, but if all you want is to protect your blueprint from connecting to the outside...
Nah,
For me it wouldn't work in cramped areas, too. And if there is no acceptance for a new entity like a lamp, which needs just one extra tile per pole, why should there be acceptance for a "wall"-like construct? And if you need to layer two networks? For complex power setups?

I think "cable free zone" are a bad idea too. Too confusing. With the perspective it's also hard to see which tile even is under a wire.

But how about land (underground?) based cables? Basically a power pole with a 1m radius. Place it next to the power switch and it connects to it. Then draw a line of them to the next power pole and they connect with that and each other. But any 1m gap between them and no connection.

eradicator · Post by **eradicator** » Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm

ssilk wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 1:34 pm Well, maybe for a mod

Oops, i thought this was a mod idea, not a base game suggestion, so i made suggestions that would actually be feasible as a mod ;).

If you're going for base-game features then i find the "extra lamp" too clunky, not intuitive enough. And at least when i say "cramped area" i don't have space for extra lamps, not that i would mind having a "channel selector gui" somewhere. But if all of this is just a hack-around for blueprints with copper wire then i'd rather have proper blueprints with wire.

mrvn wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 4:55 pm But how about land (underground?) based cables? Basically a power pole with a 1m radius.

I think one of the devs said there were performance issues associated with too many powerpoles. And it'd be confusing to have a second method of "laying cables" alongside the current one.

mrvn · Post by **mrvn** » Wed May 22, 2019 5:41 pm

eradicator wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 5:08 pm
ssilk wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 1:34 pm Well, maybe for a mod
Oops, i thought this was a mod idea, not a base game suggestion, so i made suggestions that would actually be feasible as a mod .

If you're going for base-game features then i find the "extra lamp" too clunky, not intuitive enough. And at least when i say "cramped area" i don't have space for extra lamps, not that i would mind having a "channel selector gui" somewhere. But if all of this is just a hack-around for blueprints with copper wire then i'd rather have proper blueprints with wire.

mrvn wrote: ↑Wed May 22, 2019 4:55 pm But how about land (underground?) based cables? Basically a power pole with a 1m radius.
I think one of the devs said there were performance issues associated with too many powerpoles. And it'd be confusing to have a second method of "laying cables" alongside the current one.

I think that was for power poles within reach. Too many connections to check when placing them.

siniox · Post by **siniox** » Sat May 25, 2019 4:18 am

i don't know how you intend to do this, but here is a case where it got messed up by automatic copper cable placement with blueprints:
one network is producing power and the other consuming it, and if the network consuming power consumes too much, it won't gradually reduce the pumpjacks, refineries and steam engines production since they have hey own network

well it doesnt work and even if the devs abandoned copper wire blueprints several years ago it is still a problem that should be considered, again

and dont't tell me to use power switches they are awful always blinking and not transmitting the desired amount of power...

Qon · Post by **Qon** » Sat May 25, 2019 9:35 am

siniox wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 4:18 am i don't know how you intend to do this,

Substations form one network and small poles form another separate network like this:

: Fairly dense Qonfiguration, blueprintable; ousu(190525-130628-37).jpg (223.49 KiB) Viewed 5666 times

: Tiles perfectly on substations, no wire editing required!; ousu(190525-130744-10).jpg (532.17 KiB) Viewed 5666 times

Edit: added a missing small pole to the blueprint.

mrvn · Post by **mrvn** » Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am

Nice. I was about to suggest placing the accumulators and poles further apart so they don't auto connect. But using the different pole types is much denser.

Qon · Post by **Qon** » Mon May 27, 2019 2:39 pm

mrvn wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 10:35 am Nice. I was about to suggest placing the accumulators and poles further apart so they don't auto connect. But using the different pole types is much denser.

Well if you are using only small poles then if you place them far enough apart that they don't connect then their powered area don't overlap or even touch. So you can't make a power transfer limiter unless you mod in some big 3x3 accumulators that can rest inside the 2 different power network small poles. For medium poles, you can share 1 accumulator between 2 diagonally placed ones and 12 between a pair of substations without them connecting. So yeah this way is much denser.

I used small poles and substations when making my 0 drain laser design too. At least power switches remember wire connections now!
So while it would be nice if blueprints could remember wire connections, you can do most things almost as dense with just small poles and substations and still have it blueprintable. So is there any examples of where you "need" wires in blueprints (or controlling wires with coloured lamps etc)?

Post by **ssilk** » Mon May 27, 2019 3:33 pm

Qon wrote: ↑Sat May 25, 2019 9:35 am Substations form one network and small poles form another separate network like this:

Nice, but such stuff was the point for me to invent this suggestion... well, it works nicely, but it is no much fun to setup such a configuration.

Qon · Post by **Qon** » Mon May 27, 2019 5:20 pm

ssilk wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 3:33 pm Nice, but such stuff was the point for me to invent this suggestion... well, it works nicely, but it is no much fun to setup such a configuration.

Well you don't have to make that design, just use my blueprint

Also, I liked doing it. While wires in BPs used to be a feature I really wanted, now that switches saves wires in blueprints I don't actually need that feature for anything except making visually neater wire grids instead of a crossing mess.

eradicator · Post by **eradicator** » Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm

Qon wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 5:20 pm I don't actually need that feature for anything except making visually neater wire grids instead of a crossing mess.

There's a mod for that. (I know there used to be at least one other mod doing that but can't find it.)

Qon · Post by **Qon** » Mon May 27, 2019 7:37 pm

eradicator wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm There's a mod for that. (I know there used to be at least one other mod doing that but can't find it.)

That is not automatic. You need to select things to activate it. And it doesn't work that great.

Gandalf was a great mod, but isn't updated for 0.17 :/

eradicator · Post by **eradicator** » Mon May 27, 2019 7:58 pm

Qon wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 7:37 pm
eradicator wrote: ↑Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 pm There's a mod for that. (I know there used to be at least one other mod doing that but can't find it.)
That is not automatic. You need to select things to activate it. And it doesn't work that great.

Gandalf was a great mod, but isn't updated for 0.17 :/

Can't find "Gandalf".

Also no clue how well *that* mod worked. I helped a bit with the other one i can't find. And that one should work "correct" when i last saw it. And after helping with it i don't think it can be done "automatically" as wiring depends on build order and stuff. So depending on how large an area you select you'd end up with different "correct" wiring. I.e. if there's several solutions how does "automatic" tell which one you want ;)?

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