Crude oil minimum scaling with distance

[Syrchalis]

Since 0.15 crude oil properly scales with distance from spawn now. This is great, especially since it doesn't deplete rapidly anymore.

I think it would be logical if the minimum yield would scale with distance as well instead of being a constant. From a realism standpoint that makes no sense of course and it would probably be not obvious to players. However, from a design perspective this makes a lot of sense - in the end only the minimum yield counts.

The whole "scaling with distance" thing makes no sense at all realism/logic-wise, but it's a great design decision. So this would go along nicely with it.

I don't think there is too little oil for players right now, more the contrary - I can just imagine that toning down the initial yield and the scaling of it with distance in turn for minimum yield scaling could be more fun.

[JohnyDL]

Isn't minimum yield basically determined by the number of oil deposits already, as you move out that count increases. so therefore does the minimum yield of the field not by individual patches

[Nasabot]

I dont see this as necessary because you can use coal for oil. Its actually good that oil is scarce and the player has to subsitute part of his oil processing with coal. And coal scales with distance like the other ores.

[Syrchalis]

The idea was to implement crude oil distance scaling properly. I feel like only increasing the starting yield is an incomplete solution.

There is no comparison to ores, because ores get richer and as far as I know bigger with distance. Oil fields increasing in size is definitely also increasing the minimum output, however, since it's 20% it's not that strong of an increase.

Let me try with an example:
If you go far for an ore field it could average 7000 ore per tile and be pretty large. So it lasts for a very long time AND has very high throughput due to it's size.

Now oil fields are the same at first, but as they deplete their throughput decreases and once depleted it's 20%. In total numbers this amounts to very little oil, even if the field was rather large at first. Say at first it gave 100 oil/sec and now it's just 20 oil/sec. 20% will always be 20%, however say you need a total of 200 oil/sec to run your factory - at first two of these fields are enough, but eventually you need ten because of depletion.

I don't want some ridiculous minimums like 100% or so, just slightly increasing dynamic minimums to go along with the general idea of "further away = better".

Also, can a dev confirm this isn't already the case? I read somewhere in the RSO mod forum something about dynamic minimum - could be mod-related though.

[raidho36]

Unlike ore patches, oil wells never runs out. You only need to expand oil rigs when you need more oil - if your demand is saturated, you don't need that.

[JohnyDL]

Yeab but if you're going out 7000 tiles for an oil outpost you're probably passing 10-12 others on route that could all be merged onto the same train, with no appreciable extra distance going out 7000 for an ore deposit that'll last the lifespan of your end game is reasonable, going that far for oil and passing up on a few dozen of oil patches on route because there's this huge deposit out there doesn't make the same kind of sense.

If you go out 7000 tiles for say 90 patches, and you pass 10-12 smaller patches that're also scaled by distance and the minimum is 6 you've almost certainly passed more on your way out there than the patch at the end will net you probably more than double, tap them, problem solved your 90 patch field acquisition quest has added 300+ patches to your oil supply.

Similarly tap a few 10M+ coal deposits exclusively for liquefaction and you'll get similar oil production results.

[Syrchalis]

Maybe I should focus more on how I came to this idea so you can understand my reasoning better.

The changes with the patch were a mix of good and bad, mostly good, but also bad side effects.
Good:

• Oil wells don't deplete that quickly anymore -> Starting yield matters more
• Higher minimum yield to make depleted oil wells more useful

Bad:

• Doubled starting yield -> the difference between a depleted well and a fresh one is just as big as before
• Starting yield scaling with distance -> difference between depleted and fresh actually gets even bigger

When I plan for a factory I really dislike oil wells, because I look at them and calculate "each well can fuel a refinery by itself" - but after a while FIVE of these wells can't even fuel a single refinery, so lots of the placed infrastructure can be removed again, or should be.

So, difference between depleted and fresh should be less severe. Sure there should be a difference, otherwise the whole system makes no sense, but the bigger it is the more annoying it is to build for.

Minimum scaling with distance only means this difference doesn't get bigger with distance, and that's it.

Infinite resource minimal yield is calculated using the initial resource amount and the prototype minimum yield.

This was in the 0.15.0 patchnotes - so maybe this is implemented in a way? Still waiting for someone to confirm or deny.

[JohnyDL]

I might be failing to see the point but why aren't you setting up an oil processing station have all your oil trained into one place rather than refining it whereever oil is pumped, here's my usual oil plan

at the start make the oil processing on the best oil deposit and leave a bunch of space and I go for the best ratios even if the oil field can't support it because when I need more plastic (usually my first shortage) I'll train in some oil and if I make more oil than I can process with one ratio'd set up I'll leave it like that I know it'll drop eventually and having more just gives me a longer delay to trains.
Later as it's ramping down or I notice I need a lot more plastic I set up a train station in that reserved space to provide any missing oil from somewhere else on the map (for me 1 train with 1 liquid wagon per 500 tiles or so supplies enough oil)
Eventually the first trained patches will deplete as well so I'll add more to my train network, I might even set up the oil train stops on the aging stations and fill up 50% at the first old one and 50% and the second old one moving the old second station train to the third patch I tap
When I get to the fifth patch tapped I do the same with the trains from oil patches 3 and 4,
If I need to double or triple my oil processing needs I might ignore the initial oil field and expand the processing over it bringing in more oil by train
It's only at this point I might consider a specific processing set up anywhere else on the map and I'd also be thinking I'd want a trained circuit setup there too

Really it's not until that's set up that you have any reason to up and delete or scale back your initial oil set up. Just because your incoming oil is reduced you need to switch to bringing more oil in from a different place (trains rather than pump jacks) deleting, refactoring or moving your oil set ups to where the oil is is almost 100% a waste of time.

And if you ever get to the point with lots of old oil stations use circuit conditions and a much bigger supply train to do the old oil, you can do it simply by setting the stations to be closed unless they can fill the train with oil (very basic circuit conditions enable/disable when crude >75000*wagon count) and give all the stations get the same name or you can do it more systematically by networking the train stations together and only opening the one with the most oil in it, then a bunch of extra storage tanks (more than your train's worth just in case) and if you're ever at a position where 2 or 3 stations are always full ready for pick up add another train. To that (although you'll aso have your regular supply runs from your high yeild fresh deposits and when you get to the point your low yeild is enough to sustain your base that's it you completed oil.

[BenSeidel]

From the 0.15.0 patch notes
Infinite resource minimal yield is calculated using the initial resource amount and the prototype minimum yield.

This means that as you go out and the initial yields increase, so does the minimum yields.

[Syrchalis]

From the 0.15.0 patch notes
Infinite resource minimal yield is calculated using the initial resource amount and the prototype minimum yield.

This means that as you go out and the initial yields increase, so does the minimum yields.

I quoted this twice already, asking if this is what I think it is.

Does anyone have any specifics on it? Like - 20% minimum yield means 20% of the initial value? Or 20% means literally 20% but it scales with initial yield and an unknown variable?

[BenSeidel]

s anyone have any specifics on it? Like - 20% minimum yield means 20% of the initial value? Or 20% means literally 20% but it scales with initial yield and an unknown variable?

It's 20% of the initial value of the oil patch. As the initial value gets higher the further out you go and the depleted value is a constant multiple of the initial value (ie, 0.2), the depleted value also increases with distance.

Are you asking if it scales like this?
depleted value = (base initial value + distance bonus) * 0.2
vs
depleted value = (initial value * 0.2 ) + distance bonus
ie as you go out from the origin, do you deplete 80% of the initial value or do you deplete a constant value, say 18 units/second?

From the responses, we don't understand what you are asking. 20% is 20%, literally or figuratively.

[Rseding91]

Oil patch minimum yield already does scale with distance.

It's either 20% of the initial yield or 2/s which ever is larger.

[Syrchalis]

Oil patch minimum yield already does scale with distance.

It's either 20% of the initial yield or 2/s which ever is larger.

Thanks, that's what I was assuming, but now I know for sure. Now I can go and tell orzelek, because he was wondering this too.

As for my suggestion - it obviously is already implemented so no further discussion needed.