Role playing direction

[DanGio]

Hello !

I'm ok with the idea that we don't need XP system. I'm also ok with the wearable items that gives improvement to the player, like in the modulable armor.

If this "class specific" bonus are integrated, people would like to see them early in the game. Although, the modulable armor comes late. So, cheap idea : we could have 1 additional equipment slot near guns and ammo, and, when starting a game, choose one item that gives a small improvement for early game. (not proud of following item names, must be changed)

Ranger's boots : gives 10% moving speed bonus. (so 1/3 of Basic exoskeleton equipment)
Scout's portable radar : gives 2 chunk bonus to the sight of player, and maybe explores chunks automatically like the radar (but without power needed)
Marine's weapon mod : gives 10% damage bonus to bullet weapons
...

Also, these items could be crafted later, so, if the player wants to change "class" (which isn't a class anymore), it's doable.

[Peter34]

I wrote this post, over in Suggestions, which is highly relevant to any discussion about adding character Classes or character Skills to the game:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... =6&t=10032

Keep in mind, though, that adding character skills to the game isn't necessarily the same as adding an action-based character advancement system to the game, where the rat learns that if it pushes the lever, it gets a sweet sip of sugar water.

It could be that you simply get 3 Skill Points to distribute before the game starts, and that's it, no advancement, or it could be that you get 1 Skill Point per 60 or 90 minutes of play (for the first 600 or 900 minutes, after that accumulated rate is reduced by 1/3), regardless of what you do (XP are simply earned over time, as in EVE Online), with or without an initial "lump sum" of 1-4 points to distribute before the game begins. Or the penalty for dying, instead of game over (which AFAIK doesn't happen in MP anyway), could be that your skill point accumulation timer is reduced by -90 minutes, meaning it'll be another 3 hours before you finally hit the 90 minute mark and get your next Skill Point.

[UberWaffe]

Summary:

• No hardcoded classes, but rather dynamic ones built from various skills.
• Do not use experience, rather have skills level up through use. (I.e. any skill is easy to get into, but hard to master, regardless of when you get into it.)
• Make skill trees similar to research tree. (I.e. it can grant bonuses and/or access to recipes or access.)
• Really nice stuff sits high up in the tree, rewarding dedicated specialization / effort in a tree.
• Things unlocked by skill trees still require the relevant research to be done, so overall tech progressing is still research based. (I.e. skill trees and research tree work along with one another.)
• All skill trees accessible to everyone, specialization is rather a matter of focus.
• Certain combinations between different trees unlock even better stuff.
• (Possibly?) Certain thresholds in skill (i.e. to cross a certain threshold) needs a special action to be taken. I.e. quest-like.

Full Blurb:
I've read only the last two pages, so perhaps a similar suggestion has already been made. But building on the cool suggestions already made.

I think taking an approach similar to the Skyrim (or other Bethesda Elder Scrolls titles) approach to skills would work best. (I.e. you do not have experience points, but rather you increase the level of a skill by using it.). But do not require / encourage grinding (such as making a thousand iron daggers in Skyrim).
Then, upon each 'level-up' in that skill, you get a skill-point to spent in that skill tree.
Certain skills have other skills as a prerequisite, and/or requires that specific skill of yours to be more than level X.
The best rewards sit higher up in the trees, encouraging specialization, but not requiring it. A jack of all trades is just as welcome, they'll just take longer to get to the really juicy stuff in any particular tree.

(Possibly?) Perhaps to cross certain thresholds actions other than the normal iterative actions are needed? For example, Warfare is normally increased through killing critters. But to cross the "Commander" threshold you need to seek out and kill a specially spawned boss-biter. Afterwards you can continue increasing the skill normally.
These "threshold blockers" would be done in such a manner that they encourage exploration. (I.e. inside caves, far away, whatever.)

Skills don't have a hard cap, but progression slows down until some plateau is reached, and after you have taken everything, the last item/skill in the tree is just a repeatable reward that grants a very minor bonus.
(I.e. it would at that point make more sense to delve into a new tree, but actions increasing that particular skill are not entirely wasted either.)
The skill tree would be very much like the research tree in that it can grant bonusses or access to new recipes / items / whatever (typically things not researchable normally, or perhaps unlock upgraded versions of things when used in conjunction with certain research.)

For example, the Warfare skill tree could unlock better tanks, but you still need to have researched the normal tank before the better tanks become available. (I.e. you need to have done the tank research and have taken the skill, then the advanced tank is available.)

Or for example the Engineering skill tree could unlock faster assembly machines (while disabling the standard ones), that still require you to do the normal research for those assembly machines. (Note: Disabling of recipes would be very useful to avoid clutter from completely obsolete versions.)

Or the Research skill tree could unlocked reduced pollution versions. Having both the reduced pollution versions unlocked as well as the faster ones from engineering gives you access to combined ones.

Possible unlocks / bonusses for trees:

• Engineering - Unlocks for assembling, smelting and power generation that are faster/more production. Bonuses for structure health and personl crafting speed.
• Warfare - Unlocks for advanced weapons, armor, tanks, etc. Bonuses to personal weapon & tank damage.
• Research - Unlocks for faster research stations, and unlocks of recipes that produce science packs in bulk, generating slightly more science packs that normal recipes do. (I.e. Craft x11 science pack in a single recipe, using only the resources required for x10.). Unlocks for experimental techs (Example: Experimental radar). Unlocks for pollution reduction.

Possible skill improvement means:

• Engineering - Crafting of items, slow skill increase while maintaining certain production thresholds.
• Warfare - Killing critters, killing critter nests.
• Research - Scouting, researching technologies, crafting of special recipes that consume science packs and produce nothing (i.e. hand-on-experimentation).

[ninjamelons]

[quote="kovarex"]Classes

Exploration
Exploration is not interesting now, if we wanted to extend the roleplaying part, we would have to do a lot of with this, I can imagine more unique items, caves, different kinds of enemy bases etc.


The caves sound like a good idea. The map transitions to another stage and other events could occur. Or in these caves there could be new enemies that you could fight using something in the cave or just bring in machine guns and blow everything up. I like the whole exploration idea in general.

[wwdragon]

All of the ideas in the OP sounds interesting.
*thumbs up*

[joe_da_cro]

in terms of RPG elements i would love to have random tilesets generated of ruined factories from a previous crashed and doomed individual possibly even have these random ruined factories as a requirement for a unique tech. a good example of this would be having laser turrets first having to be found from a ruined factory then the research tree opens up for it.

Also there is nothing wrong with creating a small hostile factory although capture mechanics would need to be implemented so that a player can capture hostile outposts.

regarding character progression i would keep it via the research tree. if you look at purple research packs they count as a players experience as you have to go out and actually kill enemy bases in order to obtain them. This is experience just masked in a unique way which i think is perfect as is now. So i guess if you want further progression as in the character all you have to do is add another research pack type which is obtained by doing rpg elements mentioned by all in thread.

[Utpshtuuk]

for me Factorio not about that

[Krayzie6682]

Yes

[Dogone]

Exploration is nearly impossible with the power level of the aliens. You have to be late game just to (Moderately) safely get rid of alien outposts. My current mid-game strategy is to run them over with a tank, get out mid charge, and start shooting with my combat shotgun while the aliens run after the tank and then repair it after.
>_>

[IIIStrife]

I haven't read any of the posts aside from the OP's so if any of what I say is at all just mimicking or mirroring what others have said, I apologize for dilluting the thread further. That being said, here we go.

I personally love the idea of a class system. I honestly would like to suggest that if you go into Singleplayer, that maybe a part of it carry to that mode as well.
If a leveling system was added in, and skills were to be added in, I kinda would like to suggest that classes notwork the way they do traditionally.

I'm unsure of how many games ACTUALLY do it like this, but what I personally have in mind is this:
When you start out, you are no class whatsoever, You have no class essentially, whatever it's called later on in any idea crafting if any goes down.
As you gain skills, or stats, or whatever system is being used (Mostly personally thinking a Diablo 2-style tree of passive effects, one for Combat, another for Science/Exploration, a third for Production-related things, whenever I say "Skills"), you gain a class after anywhere from 1-3 (or whatever you want) skills/skill points have been gained/applied in a specific, singular class-specific category.

When you gain a class, the other class-related trees aren't locked away, you however just gain additional bonuses for building more points into one category. W
I feel this way, people would feel more open to try interesting builds for any skill or stat point system available, allowing for more player diversity in-game.

Who knows, maybe the class could become a title displayed next to one's in-game name. With different levels of the class name applied as you level up and gain proficiency in your area of expertise.

To go from whatever is the lowest to a Master Engineer. On a server, you would not only gain awesome abilities (probly or not), but also gain a sort of prestige. Or not, just throwing ideas out there.

I like the idea of getting exploration into the game that means something aside from "I need resources"
If there were caves to explore, I feel it would be neat to have them as holes in the ground, since the world is sort of only inhabited by insectoid creatures. Assault underground alien hives, maybe finding ruins on the surface could be possible.

Would be neat to find artifacts/artefacts that give interesting bonuses or something. They would be different from the Science Pack 4 requirement ingredient Artifact, and could attract aliens from farther away to attack, only it could help your accumulators store more, or something.
Perhaps you could find lost fragments of far more advanced (engineers? I dunno, depends on the game's lore if it'll have any) which have been destroyed and lost to the alien natives' countless numbers (or old age, again, I don't even know if I'm also not a robot in-game or if I'm a legit human) and those things could be studied in a lab, in exchange for cost discounts on technologies, to discover new ones you'd never see otherwise, or to just fully gain other technologies.

Maybe you'd find more powerful forms of aliens, but get more and more interesting and rare materials from their razed hives, the further out you go from your spawn (which if this ever happened, I bet it would be tied into a bit of the Alien Base Frequency, Size and Richness settings as to what really determines it).

I'd honestly like for there (however) to be the option to get some kind of robotic ally that could defend your base, and attack enemy bases, should they attack often enough. Just alternatives for dealing with aliens, maybe some that may not require player interaction.

The ideas of experience being just alien artifacts is honestly perfect, only I feel it should be also given (albeit very rarely) from killing enemy units. The trade-off would be that you need to be near the enemies for artifacts to spawn at all.


For levels though, I agree with NotABiter on his two point about RPG mechanics in the game.

RPG mechanics could make the game even better by allowing people to create potentially radically different builds, allowing some to do wierd things with stuff you normally can't do, while others do stuff at crazy speeds like hand-crafting objects, or gaining a logistics-like menu, only with auto crafting.

Having classes would be neat, but I feel it should be more free-form at first, until later one, when it becomes more restricting in the class you end up being in, only the options you get getting, only serve to give more variation in that class specifically.

It could be possible to gain special recipes via this RPG progression, like to craft Science Pack 2 using Science Pack 1s and maybe one other material, like iron plates or something.

In the end, the RPG leveling system, if any existed in Factorio, should allow you to do some seriously insane crap in the end-game. Whether it's crafting 200 requster chests in under 10 minutes, or having massive boosts to research speeds, or learning of techs that others can't ever get access to, due to not being a Scientist.

Just some ideas. The potential of an RPG system to add to the game, even on Solo, for game-to-game diversity, is absolutely absurd.

Seriously. Imagine a bonus to have, then add it into the game. Eventually you will have almost too many, but that would be a good thing. 50 bonuses that do something different will foster alot more diversity than 10 highly different bonuses.

Can have more than just percent bonuses to stats for bonuses. Again, you could have things that expand upon the tech tree to give more nichey, more interesting tools to give to the group, or bonuses that allow you to maybe shoot two guns at once, perhaps bonuses to allow researching two techs at once.
Could probly think of alot more if I took the time.

[vulstar]

I am gonna take it on another road kinda here for roles:

Some possible roles that could already fit in the game by either limiting items to certain classes, or adding advanced categories of these items.

Liquid Specialist: Setting up pumps, refineries, chemical plants, oil pumps, underground pipes. (maybe ofshore pump also?)
Transport Specialist: Setting up railroads, making cars, tier 3 belts.
Flight Specialist: Setting up logistic drones, robo-ports, robo-chests.
Battle Specialist: Making capsules, tanks(maybe car required to craft?), advanced weapons, advanced ammo, turrets.
Energy specialist: Build accumulators, advanced electric poles, solar power. (maybe steam engine also?)
Defense specialist: Walls, armor&modules, turrets, repair kits.

Now depending on server sizes you could allow people to have two specialisms or even three, and everyone would have his own role in the game for building a factory.

[OkariDraconis]

I'm not really a fan of predefined classes in sandboxes. While classes can make sense for multiplayer, it hurts the single player experience in my opinion. I currently like how 7 days to die does their Experience / Leveling system. In a group of friends, classes are an emergent behavior. For example, when I play with my friend. I focus on building melee weapons, and armor crafting. While he focuses on gun crafting, and tool smithing. This has made it so our access to quality goods has gone faster since we are specializing in our jobs. Thus it so guns and tools from him are better quality and visa versa..

In single player, I'm become a jack of all trades simply because I need to be in single player.

The system is a bit skyrimish... IE: you do action, you get experience in a related skill. Once you get enough total experience, you level up, and are rewarded 5 skills point. Which you can now spend to increase a skill directly, or save it to buy a 10 point perk basically

that's my 2 cents.

[AlastarFrost]

I dont like the idea of classes that interfere with production and science. There is no good reason, why an automated factory should need less materials for a product just because the player has a certain class. Of course, an engineer could optimize some constructs and a scientist could make some reactions more efficient, but in the end: You have autolabs doing the research for you. Some minor improvements over what the autolab did, would take you months sitting at a desk working on that engineering task, while you should be out there fighting off biters and manage your factory. It doesnt make a lot of sense.

I like the idea of classes or a perk system when it comes to fighting. Stranded alone on a hostile planet you need to learn how to fight the biters. That is a new task for the one who is stranded, something where he will develop his personal style.
- training to run faster (faster sprints forward without shooting or running backwards faster while shooting)
- specializing in a weapon type
- finding the weak spots of biters (critical strikes)
- learning to sneak up on biters without beeing detected
- dodging attacks

if you combine that with optional dungeons (biter lairs underground), it could be interesting. I could imagine a system where you sometimes find the entrance to a lair in a biter base. You could either expore it (find some interesting stuff, make full use of your character perks) or you could just fill it with propane and blow it up (destroying all stuff but saving you the exploration). You could choose either way to neutralize the threat.

[Otterbear]

I'm not a fan of the Role playing aspect of this game.

Your avatar (and the Biters), are nothing more than a time-sink(Look it up), and thus detract from a very enjoyable experience of using your brain to come up with ideas and better ways of doing things.

Much more could be done to develop what is already a very good game when you remove the time-sinks.

*Yes, I do play sandbox alot...almost exclusively. I'm just saddened at that thought of the core-game going into a more arcade/rts/role-play direction.

As evidenced by the fanbase, this is a game for thinkers. A place to challenge yourself, to create and automate, not sit back and watch it play itself(see blue-prints/Constuctobots)...or turn into an fps.

[Stevepunk]

Exploration
Exploration is not interesting now, if we wanted to extend the roleplaying part, we would have to do a lot of with this, I can imagine more unique items, caves, different kinds of enemy bases etc.

I agree on this point - there is nothing to discover.

A good start would be ruined bases.
Same as player bases but mostly destroyed - can be rebuilt or scavenged for resources/parts.

Non-ruined bases with quest NPC's - help us defend, attack a nearby base, trade with us or bring us x of item y.
The city states of Civ have these basic quests - and you can befriend them or attack and capture them.

[OkariDraconis]

Your avatar (and the Biters), are nothing more than a time-sink(Look it up), and thus detract from a very enjoyable experience of using your brain to come up with ideas and better ways of doing things.

I personally feel like biters enhance the game. With out them I would not be challenged enough (I even play with bobs mods). It forces me to think more deeply about my strategy, and strike the right balance of speed of progression vs efficiency. A way to look at it is like Disasters in Sim City, some people like to play with em on, some don't. I like it when my "perfect" plans are ruined due to unforeseeable forces, granted biters are rather predictable...

That being said, I don't want to completely derail this thread...
Or do I....

Maybe the roll playing aspect of the game can involved choice to go the peaceful route with the Aliens, or the warlike route with the aliens...somethign to think about.

[Lokar]

I am totally against any unchangeable player made choices that would affect the rest of the game. There are ways to achieve these pro/con bonuses without players having assigned classes/roles. Equipment and Tech being two viable options. I cannot stress this next point enough, I bought this game because it challenges the player in a non-traditional way, and the fact that it IS NOT a role playing game. A lot of times developers think that adding classes adds more content to the game, when realistically, it limits what content the player can access.

Factorio is really great at letting the player "have it all", and I'd like to see that stay the same. There isn't any limited time content or micro-transactions; there isn't anything significant that a player can look back and wish they had done differently. Classes will definitely add that. Keep doing what you're doing, it's working wonderfully! Just don't fall victim to the same mistakes other developers make that ultimately runs their game into the ground.

[bunce]

How about having those class specific roles built into armours instead of the character itself. Then you can build a fighter armour or a scentist lab coat or something. That way there is no leveling up, no looking through the forumus for a scientist in your timezone to play with and no grinding levels. Just make the armour, and the conciquencial upgrades expencive, so players are disencouraged to build a set of each type of armour and go around being everything at once.


Then the armour add-on could also boost these upgrades by small amouts and only the chemistry set could go in the scientist labcoat to get 10% faster research. (This would also mean you would have to add alot more tech to the tech tree to make science last late into the end game) + (probably would have to launch multiple rockets into space to research the planet's solar system).

Of course i used Scientist as an example because we all know what direction the fighter and engineer class would take.

thanks for reading

bunce.

[aubergine18]

How about having those class specific roles built into armours instead of the character itself. Then you can build a fighter armour or a scentist lab coat or something.

Upgrades could come from equipment - both for player (in their armour slots) and even vehicles. Which is why I put this request in for more modding options on equipment: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=35324

A mod could then start the player with some default attributes, and the player could do research to get various craftable upgrades. The mod would need some way to restrict certain equipments to certain character classes (already feasible with current API IMO). To me this would be much more logical approach in Factorio - the Factorian researches and crafts their own upgrades, and could then trade them with other players in MP games. So, for example, instead of having a "magic pendant" that gives them longer reach they'd research and craft a robotic arm for your exoskeleton.

[Cantankerous]

As a roleplayer with over a decade of experience, and also a fan of Factorio. I would like to chime in.

Roleplayers do not care about what classes they are or anything like that. If you'd like to enhance the game to appeal to roleplayers you simply need to consider the following suggestions:

1. Enhance the chat interface: Allowing roleplayers to type their stories and emote amongst themselves is the foremost important thing. This allows roleplayers to interact in their niche environment.
2. Add a /roll function: This allows roleplayers to type /roll to use randomly generated numbers inside their story worlds.
3. Add customizable skins: People like to look pretty.
4. Add story to the game, things people's imaginations can expand upon, when they envision their character and how he got here into this fantasy world.

You shouldn't need classes, or to alter the game in any other way in order to make the game RP friendly.