Gleba has killed the game for me.

[quineotio]

I believe it's weird arguing bioflux is the most complex receipe

That would be a weird thing to argue, I agree.

[mmmPI]

I believe it's weird arguing bioflux is the most complex receipe

That would be a weird thing to argue, I agree.

You did it though :

As it is, the most complex recipe is probably bioflux, which is also one of the first things you make.

[quineotio]

You win.

[wobbycarly]

I've really enjoyed my time on Gleba (this time!)

It's interesting that you say "this time". Because I think a lot of the issues people have with Gleba are to do with the learning curve. There are a lot of new concepts thrown at you all at once in a high pressure environment, and you need to have multiple things working before the factory will produce anything because most things need bioflux, and bioflux is quite a complex recipe.

Yes, that was my point - 2nd time around was more fun. First time I had to jump into editor to work stuff out. Which in hindsight wasn't really necessary, since the lifetime of most of the items (except jelly and mash) is actually quite long.

[mmmPI]

You win.

I'm sorry if you think i'm trying to pick a fight there, the idea for me is not to shut down the discussion by "winning", the topic being discussed i found important, maybe i'm wrong, and i'll only realize when the next update comes out, or the one after, that what i thought wasn't going to happen actually did happen.

I think the "more complex" from Gleba are "optionnal" already, because overgrowth soil are only required to scale things up to a point beyond what is strictly necessary to "win the game", and i take that as a clue that "more complex receipe" are unlikely to be added as a "requirement" to beat the game, ( and the discussion about quality vs complex chains ), but that leaves room for "optionnal" additions. That's also where mods shine, and i was not trying to be disrepectful when saying the ideas sounds good for mod ( ice cube / more entangled receipe chain // similar to overgrowth in my eyes, item spoiling in a another spoilable ...) , i would have said i think they are terrible ideas even for mods if i was thinking it was the case !

I think it is also to put into perspective with Gleba being subjectively the "hardest" for a 2nd planet. I would be less surprised to be wrong if ice cube idea is made a thing into the game between Aquilo and Vulcanus, to add some more connexions between the planets than in relation with Gleba. Even if that could be seen as a way to alleviate the spoilage mechanic for those who dislike it, or to build upon it.

I agree / share the feeling that the initial difficulty can be hard, it is the opposite of Fulgora to me somehow for the learning curve, Fulgora you start right away with blue circuits, so easily you get access to what would take a lot of preparation in Nauvis, it seem very easy, but only later the problem start to pile up, with things overflowing here and there. Whereas Gleba at the start it can be a real pain, to get going, if you don't have a good place where the 2 biomes are "close" on the map to settle, ( you can't know that your first time ) , if you need a lot of fight for it, if you have back luck for finding the initial trees or seeds, if products spoils before you understand how to use them, it's all in the player face at once. But once you have overcome all that it can be a very stable factory that produces infinite ressources. ( hopefully ? ) In such case, i can understand that it feel like a good idea to add things to do/ reward, like the ideas you suggested.

I agree that bioflux is quite complex to do, and is what a player has to do early on, and wouldn't be too surprised if changes are made (again) to alleviate the initial difficulty, like adding more trees patches in the starting area, or something i can't think of that would address the steep learning curve and allow more players to enjoy the existing more complex receipe and feel their purpose. If the first few steps of the ladder are made shorter, maybe more people can climb higher, but/and only then it would make sense for me to add complexity in the "base game".

[quineotio]

Thank you, I hope this can be the start of a more productive conversation.

It's difficult to explain all my thoughts, and they are distributed in different spots. One of the challenges in talking about this is that I don't know what the appropriate scope is for any proposed change, so I've provided a bunch of options - some of which are contradictory because I wouldn't implement them all at the same time. And also my thinking has evolved over time. I am conscious of trying to suggest the least destructive changes that would require the least work to implement and damage as few playstyles as possible, but it's just not possible to avoid breaking things, which is why I think it's important to speak as early as possible.

I also don't like criticizing unless I've thought through the problem and can offer a solution. Even if the solution isn't viable for one reason or another, my hope is that at least it provides insight into my mindset, and is therefore valuable feedback.

So, starting at Gleba, the learning curve is way too steep in my opinion, but the actual mechanics are good once you understand them. My solution to this would be to introduce some bio-production on Nauvis, probably starting at green science, or at least unlock the ag tower and tree seeding early. By doing this you could at least introduce the ag tower and seeds in a low pressure environment, and when they aren't needed for any critical production chain, and when you already have a working factory to fall back to and don't have to worry about power etc. This would be two less new things to learn on Gleba (ag tower and seeds).

If there was some biological stuff on Nauvis - let's say a fruit - it would have to be processed without the biochamber, which means without the nutrient requirement. This would make it simpler than the stuff on Gleba, and would be a way to introduce a spoiling production line without the extra burden of nutrients/spoilage (the fruit would still spoil, but you wouldn't need to worry about nutrients also). And whatever recipes that existed also wouldn't require bioflux and could be as simple as a transformation of a single spoilable fruit into a non spoilable end product.

You could also introduce the concept of different soils on Nauvis. You wouldn't have access to biter eggs, but there is surely some simple recipe that could work, such as spoilage + landfill + fish - or maybe it requires the end product of fruit production. Alternatively you could allow biter eggs to be harvested from nests after you destroy them, which is similar to how egg rafts work as a non sustainable source.

So then the question is, what would this new bio production be used for? This is where my ideas on quality come in. I think there are issues with the current system, which you've read elsewhere. You could use the products from Nauvis bio production in recipes for higher quality goods. This would alleviate the problem of not having the recycler, and in my opinion it would be more interesting to have more complex crafting chains for higher quality goods, rather than mixed production lines and recycler loops, which is kinda of a repeat of the mechanics on Fulgora.

Doing it this way (different recipes) would also make quality science more appealing, because you could be rewarded with a higher science output at the cost of a more complex factory, and it would enable a productivity/quality combination that currently isn't possible. I think this would be more interesting than the productivity research we have now, and more UPS efficient than just scaling.

Also it would remove the issue of having to account for the higher tiers of quality even if you don't have access to them. Also you could remove the weirdness that exists with items such as quality holmium ore.

I've thought about how I'd implement this system - do you make quality raw materials or quality buildings directly. The challenge is to minimize complexity and the number of new recipes as much as possible, and it would take more thinking to arrive at a conclusion. But I'm learning toward producing the raw materials, as that's the most flexible way to do it. You would still need 4 new recipes for iron/copper/plastic etc. but this would solve one of my other issues, which is a lack of progression on the different planets. If you could, for example, produce higher quality tungsten with a more complex crafting chain, that would give you more to do after you're exporting science.

I also think doing it this way would make quality more friendly for new players, because it's kinda a trap at the moment. It's very easy to jam your factory, and not just once but 3 times (because of the 3 quality researches). It would also provide an avenue for progression through more complex crafting chains that aren't strictly necessary to finish the game. You could, for example, make legendary items very difficult to make.

If you wanted, you could get a lot of mileage from a single fruit on Nauvis, because you could have the fresh fruit, spoiled fruit, fresh "mash/jelly" product and spoiled product, giving you 3-4 new items. You could also change the fish > nutrients recipe to be nutrient positive and then use nutrients in some recipes. But basically, you could teach most of the basics of Gleba before you even arrive. It would also give more reasons to import biochambers to Nauvis.

And you could take these concepts even further, such as being able to produce non-Nauvis products on Nauvis through a complex crafting chain. For example, you get some acid from the Nauvis fruit and mix it with iron ore to get a small amount of tungsten.

Another example would be increased productivity through more complex recipes. For example, instead of (or in addition to) a flat productivity bonus on buildings, you instead get more end products if you create a fluid from spoilable fruit and use that in the recipe in addition to the normal ingredients.

I hope this gives better insight into where I'm coming from. I like many of the systems in space age, but I don't think they're integrated well.

EDIT: and I should add, making a mod isn't an option for me. I don't have time, and I don't know how to program.

[mmmPI]

Thank you, I hope this can be the start of a more productive conversation.

Proabably not, if you are going to repost the same reasonning after recognizing its flaw. It isn't going to change my view on it because it is explained with more words or meant to solve a different less imaginary problem, it is still the same reasonning. I feel there is a difference between feedback and suggestion and you are only making the same suggestions that suit your ideas without taking into consideration what others say to you, or the flaws it has.

I hope this gives better insight into where I'm coming from. I like many of the systems in space age, but I don't think they're integrated well.

It appeared to me that your propositions came from not recognizing the current purpose/use of the overgrown soil and ignoring the reasonning behind the quality system and why there is no extra bloat in the list of recipe and that doesn't appear to me to have changed.

I don't believe adding extra receipe that would be copy of Gleba on Nauvis makes sense in that regard. I think it shows you have no care for what other people tell you and you are just trying to push your suggestions, because quality is an optionnal mechanism, it makes little sense to try and adress Gleba learning curve with something related to it, some players will ignore quality altogether. It was mentionned a lot in the debate about quality and why it was choosen, that's why i mentionned it to you to try and explain why it was imo leading to nowhere to propose new sets of receipe to try and change the quality system. And it was quite off-topic to try and make this point as if it was Gleba's feedback and not a suggestion.

Adding a new set of receipe to try and change the quality system, and address gleba's learning curve is no better because there is the "address gleba's learning curve" added at the end, the problem lies in the early part that is the same to me.

EDIT: and I should add, making a mod isn't an option for me. I don't have time, and I don't know how to program.

There are plenty of mods that already exists !!! Including mods with freezers ! Different way of doing qualities and others of your suggestions, that are good suggestions for mods x)

[Haisom]

I found Gleba to be a challenge. Now that I have it solved it is one of my favorite planets, not sure why there is so much hate for it. It actually made me think a little bit!

[Eternal]

3rd playthru... gleba is ez pz... now on 3rd i wanna try adding trains to gleba :D:D but prolly my FPS will drop below 60 by the time i need to expand that much

[WeirdConstructor]

After some months turning my attention to other things, like gardening in the real world, I have new thoughts about Gleba.
People have different ways of playing the game. Some think long and plan ahead a lot, and search exactly that in Factorio. I do that when I am at work as software developer. When I try to relax, my approach was and will always be to build first and fix/think later when problems appear. I love tinkering, I like building "good enough" solutions.

It works fine on other planets, because mistakes/bugs in your factory aren't punished that harshly. Got a problem? The factory just stalls. But on Gleba the punishment and the time pressure is more harsh, and thus my play style is not sparking as much fun for me. I have to think ahead about a few too many things at once: spoilage, spoiling eggs and proper fruit handling, so you don't lose seeds.

Gleba overwhelmed me, it obviously does not do that for many others, but this is how I feel about Gleba. Call, being overwhelmed with these details, a disability if you want. Maybe it's due to my higher than average stress levels I have to deal with on a day to day basis. For the most frustrating thing on Nauvis, the biters destroying your factory, you are taught upfront in the tutorial. There is no tutorial except a few screenshots/animations and a few lines of text for Gleba.

[Stargateur]

they have considerably nerfed enemy on gleba now, the evolution is more smooth, and pollution is a lot more absorbed now. It's no where near the same difficulty at the launch of 2.0. But that only for combat side on gleba, I still don't like the unique building of gleba.

[120IQMove]

Gleba probably is the most brutal way to learn more about ratio

[Ohz]

Gleba was a challenge to master, inspired me a stress i never asked for. But as many challenge in life, this is another lesson to calm down, breath, think and apply solutions Gleba is a cold shower: unconfortable, yet completely harmless. Fix your factory, enjoy the infinite prod with a sewer system.

[evanrinehart]

After trying a few runs of Space Age I think Gleba is one of the most well designed planets in any game. Aesthetically and gameplay-wise this planet has it all.

- Interesting environment, atmospherics, music.
- Evocative resources. The produce gets jellified or mashed as shown in the recipe graphics. You're told it's either tastey and nutritious, or not. Now there's some mystery about what jelly is like. Metal metabolizing microbes concentrated on stromatolites and found in trace amounts in fruit. Alien eggs adds an element of risk and ethical weight to whatever you use them for.
- Enemies and combat. Before you get advanced weapons fighting the pentapods is a non-trivial tactical task. Something people report not getting on Nauvis, definitely not on some of the other planets.
- Factory difficulty. If you can build a vanilla base with one hand behind your back and blindfolded, you need a new challenge. Vulcanus doesn't really provide this and most players will cheat themselves out of it on Fulgora by voiding unwanted resources. I find the design landscape for Gleba to be very rich. Beyond just forcing you to come up with a new way to solve the main science problem, there's a whole new universe of optional factory tasks to come up with and solve if you want to. All the ways new mechanics interact means there's that many new solutions to problems new and old.

Just to clarify, I really like the other planets for their own redeeming characteristics. But to me Gleba has the most "continuing brain candy" going on among them.

[Hurkyl]

IMO, the biggest problem with Gleba is visual clarity. (and the other planets other planets too)

On Nauvis, the only thing that matters much about a tile is whether it's water or not water, and the distinction is extremely clear.

Tile type matters a lot more now in Space Age, and this is most significant on Gleba, and I find the visuals are not even close to allowing me to distinguish tile types. I can only identify seedable terrain and the levels thereof through use of the mini-map and the grid shown when placing an agricultural tower. In the swamps (I mean the yumako/jellynut biomes) I can't identify what terrain is buildable and what is not, unless I actually try building things on it. When space age came out I couldn't even tell the difference between water and land in the swamps; today I can only tell if I look carefully.

[evanrinehart]

I don't bother trying to visually distinguish. While holding a building or soil stack the green and red overlay shows where land and water is, or where appropriate / inappropriate tiles are. Also, just for fun, clicking with seeds gives feedback on what the invalid tile is called. But yes planning where to build crops seems to be a matter of studying the map.

[NineNine]

IMO, the biggest problem with Gleba is visual clarity. (and the other planets other planets too)

On Nauvis, the only thing that matters much about a tile is whether it's water or not water, and the distinction is extremely clear.

Tile type matters a lot more now in Space Age, and this is most significant on Gleba, and I find the visuals are not even close to allowing me to distinguish tile types. I can only identify seedable terrain and the levels thereof through use of the mini-map and the grid shown when placing an agricultural tower. In the swamps (I mean the yumako/jellynut biomes) I can't identify what terrain is buildable and what is not, unless I actually try building things on it. When space age came out I couldn't even tell the difference between water and land in the swamps; today I can only tell if I look carefully.

In all seriousness, have you been tested for color blindness? I can very clearly see the difference between the different tiles on Gleba.