Meaningful Content Update

[Mythoss]

Is it not allowed to discuss about new content??? Dont feel attacked just because there exists people who think that the game lacks some content in some parts of the game and that it is polished enough so they would like to switch the focus of developement over to more content in the future.

It is allowed to discuss. However, devs have made it very clear that they will not add significant new content before official release. I do not believe that any discussion will change their decision. And as far as I know, they have not actually promised anything after that. Factorio is building and engineering game with some spice of warfare and not a combat game with some building elements. I can understand frustration of combat game lovers, but on the other hand, there are almost infinite number of combat games in market but much more limited number of high quality building and engineering games.

In my opinion simple adding flying or burrowing biters would be only frustrating and boring. Then I had to just add turrets everywhere. There would be no planning, no strategy, on anything interesting. Just put few assemblers to produce guns and spam them around all production plants. Current biters, which do not appear suddenly from nothing, give more reasonable strategic desicions. Where to build defense lines, how to utilize natural barriers etc. I can trust that area I have cleared and enclosed will stay free.

I hope that there would be automated combat units. I could manufacture scout drones, guard units, attack units etc. and act as strategic commander and give them commands to gather information, guard areas, attack somewhere of defend positions. And decide for which branch of army I spend military investments, research and weapon manufacturing. Enemies should also be more rare and more clever and not huge horde of extremely stupid individuals running into death straight to the nearest turret.

But I understand that it will not happen and do not complain it. In any case Factorio is one of two best games ever for me. Other is Kerbal Space Program and I can not say which I like more. Factorio is interesting game, it have very high programming quality, good amount of vanilla content, huge amount of high quality modded content. It gives certainly extremely high amount of fun for the buck for building game enthusiasts but maybe I would recommend it with grain of salt for combat gamers. Factorio like production mechanism would be very good base for combat weighted game too and I hope there will be such games in future or better options to mod interesting enemies in Factorio.

Burrowing biters could be very rare, boss like creatures that don't attack every wave. In fact you could have some kind of warning system like tremors or some basic text to give a few minutes of warning. This would add a new interesting dynamic to the gameplay because players would have to converge and use their suits or tanks to take them down from the inside of the base. Alternatively you could have some kind of thumper turret that would make them submerge briefly. There is a lot you could do to enemy types to make them interesting.

You could have big armored biters that were immune to flamethrowers and resistance to conventional turrets but armor piercing rounds could penetrate them, giving the tank another use or maybe some kind of rail gun turret.

Fliers would be a great addition for people who abused choke points too much or built on an island. I think they are necessary to add at some point to keep the difficulty in line. Honestly the game is a bit too easy. I'd welcome new interesting, challenging enemy types. You'd have to change up your strategy and use different weapons that hopefully have different production chains for mid to late game.

You could also have the bitters evolve into different types each game, so in one game maybe a turret type works better than in another. Maybe flyers wouldn't evolve everytime and other games maybe you invisible biters that leech your power supplies. The possibilities are endless.

[Hannu]

Burrowing biters could be very rare, boss like creatures that don't attack every wave.
...

You could have big armored biters that were immune to flamethrowers and resistance to conventional turrets but armor piercing rounds could penetrate them, giving the tank another use or maybe some kind of rail gun turret.

Sure, combat game fans would certainly benefit that kind of changes. But if problem is that interrupt of building project is annoying and and manual fighting is not fun, such solutions would not increase entertainment value of the game.

Fliers would be a great addition for people who abused choke points too much or built on an island.

That sounds very controversial statement. I think players who build an island want to avoid actual fighting with biters and removing possibility to isolate would decrease their fun. And if someone want to fight he probably do not build an island base or choose very much lakes. Problem of that kind of suggestions are that they remove completely possibilities to some play styles. In my option possibility to play with very different strategies and settings is one of key thing which make Factorio a game which give entertainment thousands of hours.

One good option would be that special biters could be switched on and off in settings. They could be default in deathworlds or there could be separate "ultimate violence" -mode in which actual combat as player would be weighted instead of automated defenses. But in basic form factorio is automation and logistic game and not combat game.

I think they are necessary to add at some point to keep the difficulty in line. Honestly the game is a bit too easy. I'd welcome new interesting, challenging enemy types. You'd have to change up your strategy and use different weapons that hopefully have different production chains for mid to late game.

I agree that automated defenses should need more resources and more complex manufacturing chains in endgame. For example replacing assembled bots by one time builded personal laser defense was on completely wrong direction. Highest tier end game weapons should be expendable so that there would be reason to build more assembling chains to feed defenses.

But I would not like to have more interrupts because attacks. I want to be engineer who plan and build automated defenses but not a soldier who use weapons to actual fight against enemies. There should not be any need to fight after early midgame. Especially at end game (infinite tech) both conquering of area and defense should be fully automatized. That is why I do not like special boss enemies. If they can be handled with automated defenses they are boring and not really bosses and if they need active fighting they are in wrong game.

You could also have the bitters evolve into different types each game, so in one game maybe a turret type works better than in another. Maybe flyers wouldn't evolve everytime and other games maybe you invisible biters that leech your power supplies. The possibilities are endless.

I would make biomes larger and somewhat different enemies on different biomes. Biomes should also affect resources but not be excluding so that player must in any case operate on all biomes to get everything needed. Instead there would be a strategic choice to build compact system on few biomes and keep things more simple and straightforward or expand to many biomes to get maximum productivity at price of more complex operations.

[ytsejam]

Is it not allowed to discuss about new content??? Dont feel attacked just because there exists people who think that the game lacks some content in some parts of the game and that it is polished enough so they would like to switch the focus of developement over to more content in the future.

It is allowed to discuss. However, devs have made it very clear that they will not add significant new content before official release. I do not believe that any discussion will change their decision. And as far as I know, they have not actually promised anything after that. Factorio is building and engineering game with some spice of warfare and not a combat game with some building elements. I can understand frustration of combat game lovers, but on the other hand, there are almost infinite number of combat games in market but much more limited number of high quality building and engineering games.

In my opinion simple adding flying or burrowing biters would be only frustrating and boring. Then I had to just add turrets everywhere. There would be no planning, no strategy, on anything interesting. Just put few assemblers to produce guns and spam them around all production plants. Current biters, which do not appear suddenly from nothing, give more reasonable strategic desicions. Where to build defense lines, how to utilize natural barriers etc. I can trust that area I have cleared and enclosed will stay free.

I hope that there would be automated combat units. I could manufacture scout drones, guard units, attack units etc. and act as strategic commander and give them commands to gather information, guard areas, attack somewhere of defend positions. And decide for which branch of army I spend military investments, research and weapon manufacturing. Enemies should also be more rare and more clever and not huge horde of extremely stupid individuals running into death straight to the nearest turret.

But I understand that it will not happen and do not complain it. In any case Factorio is one of two best games ever for me. Other is Kerbal Space Program and I can not say which I like more. Factorio is interesting game, it have very high programming quality, good amount of vanilla content, huge amount of high quality modded content. It gives certainly extremely high amount of fun for the buck for building game enthusiasts but maybe I would recommend it with grain of salt for combat gamers. Factorio like production mechanism would be very good base for combat weighted game too and I hope there will be such games in future or better options to mod interesting enemies in Factorio.

Burrowing biters could be very rare, boss like creatures that don't attack every wave. In fact you could have some kind of warning system like tremors or some basic text to give a few minutes of warning. This would add a new interesting dynamic to the gameplay because players would have to converge and use their suits or tanks to take them down from the inside of the base. Alternatively you could have some kind of thumper turret that would make them submerge briefly. There is a lot you could do to enemy types to make them interesting.

You could have big armored biters that were immune to flamethrowers and resistance to conventional turrets but armor piercing rounds could penetrate them, giving the tank another use or maybe some kind of rail gun turret.

Fliers would be a great addition for people who abused choke points too much or built on an island. I think they are necessary to add at some point to keep the difficulty in line. Honestly the game is a bit too easy. I'd welcome new interesting, challenging enemy types. You'd have to change up your strategy and use different weapons that hopefully have different production chains for mid to late game.

You could also have the bitters evolve into different types each game, so in one game maybe a turret type works better than in another. Maybe flyers wouldn't evolve everytime and other games maybe you invisible biters that leech your power supplies. The possibilities are endless.

You don't want a "meaningful content" update, you want a different game altogether. People abusing chokepoints? Please...

[Mythoss]

Expanding on the combat, that's apart of the game isn't a stretch by any means. If you don't like the combat there is sandbox mode or Sim City. You are oddly defensive about feedback from players who enjoy that aspect of the game. The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game and seen little love, it would make sense that players would want it expanded.

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

[5thHorseman]

The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game.

I say the love story is weaker. I mean, you never even see the love interest on screen and there is like NO back story. Also the roguelike aspects could be better fleshed out.

[Mythoss]

The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game.

I say the love story is weaker. I mean, you never even see the love interest on screen and there is like NO back story. Also the roguelike aspects could be better fleshed out.

That's pretty fair, you have the campaign for a bit of backstory but yeah, not a lot.

It really bothers me that each biome is just aesthetically different. There really isn't any reason to visit each one separately. They also don't feel very "alien" for an alien planet. Satisfactory does a good job of that.

[Koub]

It really bothers me that each biome is just aesthetically different.

Each biome absorbs pollution differently. Also vehicles have different top speeds depending on the biome.
The differences are small, but there is a hint of flavour beyond the aethetics.

[posila]

It really bothers me that each biome is just aesthetically different. There really isn't any reason to visit each one separately. They also don't feel very "alien" for an alien planet. Satisfactory does a good job of that.

Satisfactory is factory building game with exploration elements. They use aliens mostly to prevent player from "exploring too fast", but also as a thing to explore.
Factorio is factory building game with base defense elements. Aliens are used as a resource dump, distraction from base building to give moments of rest from thinking about logistic problems, and to contain player in smaller area. If player builds a turret wall to defend agains an enemy, new enemy that is able to fly over the wall or is immune to the damage of turrets built there shouldn't show up when player might be building mining expansion far away from the base. This wouldn't be problem in RTS, as player can control all over the map all the time.

[Mythoss]

It really bothers me that each biome is just aesthetically different. There really isn't any reason to visit each one separately. They also don't feel very "alien" for an alien planet. Satisfactory does a good job of that.

Satisfactory is factory building game with exploration elements. They use aliens mostly to prevent player from "exploring too fast", but also as a thing to explore.
Factorio is factory building game with base defense elements. Aliens are used as a resource dump, distraction from base building to give moments of rest from thinking about logistic problems, and to contain player in smaller area. If player builds a turret wall to defend agains an enemy, new enemy that is able to fly over the wall or is immune to the damage of turrets built there shouldn't show up when player might be building mining expansion far away from the base. This wouldn't be problem in RTS, as player can control all over the map all the time.

My point is more about the look of factorio biomes and how they really just represent earth biomes in regards to flora. It doesn't really have an alien "feel" while satisfactory, No Man's Sky, Subnautic do. Those worlds feel truly Alien. I wasn't trying to make an apples to oranges comparison to actual game design.

Fliers add a layer of depth through new defenses and avoiding choke points. They could be balanced to come mid/late game and not spawn from every biter nest to make them manageable. They could / should not spawn with ever biter attack to give players breathing room. You could also make the starter turrets be able to attack them but have further research chains that add anti air turrets or even modules to equip in your vehicles or personal player.

[DerGraue]

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

This is exactly why your suggestions of "meaningful content update" are horrible. Flying biters, events with tunnel biters and so on, I personally would really hate that!

Everybody likes different things at different times. You said so yourself. Now if you implement something like tunnel biters, it is in the game and people have to deal with that. Instead, the devs made a very solid and somewhat "simple" base game and also choose to give tools to the players to create their own mods and play the game exactly how they like to play it. That is a lot of extra work and time they put into the game. There is a reason why so few games have really good mod support, it is a lot of work.

Right now, you want to play with more challenging biters and different biomes? Guess what, after a few 100 hours of playing factorio I wanted challenging biters, too. So I installed mods, tested around and played the game exactly how I wanted to play the game. Was a lot of fun. Most people would not play the game that way. So they don't have to. Cause it is not in the base game. The same goes for you, take a look at all those awesome mods, take what you want, set it up how you want it, play the game how you want it.

But don't assume that everybody likes what you like right now.

[posila]

My point is more about the look of factorio biomes and how they really just represent earth biomes in regards to flora. It doesn't really have an alien "feel" while satisfactory, No Man's Sky, Subnautic do. Those worlds feel truly Alien. I wasn't trying to make an apples to oranges comparison to actual game design.

I don't know what's up with that. I remember Albert, the art director, saying he was instructed to keep trees and grass green, water blue, etc. I don't know if there was some intention behind that or maybe it was just kovarex not liking alien-looking game worlds.

[Hannu]

Expanding on the combat, that's apart of the game isn't a stretch by any means. If you don't like the combat there is sandbox mode or Sim City. You are oddly defensive about feedback from players who enjoy that aspect of the game. The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game and seen little love, it would make sense that players would want it expanded.

Combat is intentionally in side role. If I remove enemies I lose significant logistic challenge. Therefore I want to keep enemies. I have to build more factories and mine more resources to feed hungry defense lines. I would like to have more complex defense logistics as a part of engineering challenge, but as many (especially devs) have written there will not be any large content addition before 1.0.

You get strict negative feedback because concentrating in combat is easy way to make this kind of game very boring and it may be true danger if too many demand it and devs see possibility to earn more. It moves very easily focus from building to fighting. I understand that there are many players who like it. Actually much more than like building. But there are also huge number of combat games in market but very limited number of builging and logistic games like Factorio.

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

We all understand that. But we builders do not want to get just another full bodied combat game.

Your suggestions would destroy strategic elements even in combat part of the game. You think using natural barriers is abusing, but it may be also strategic decision. If there were enemies able to teleport anywhere (or fly or burrow, it is practically the same), players should just spawn all types of turrets everywhere. No matter are they common or rare, all production units should be defensed everywhere on map. In my opinion, it is much more interesting also from combat point of view to be able to make strategic decisions and get benefits of clever thinking. And if you think real defense strategy, modern military troops use terrain very carefully to control enemy moving and enhance own defense position instead of just running on each other on huge field like biters (I always wonder why warfare was like that so many millennia).

Have you tried mods? There are some mods which concentrates on combat and make game much harder if you want.

[Hannu]

I don't know what's up with that. I remember Albert, the art director, saying he was instructed to keep trees and grass green, water blue, etc. I don't know if there was some intention behind that or maybe it was just kovarex not liking alien-looking game worlds.

In my opinion it is very good decision. They are clear colors I have used to. Strange oversaturated colors would look alien in first hours, but messy and stressing after that.

[Xorimuth]

My point is more about the look of factorio biomes and how they really just represent earth biomes in regards to flora. It doesn't really have an alien "feel" while satisfactory, No Man's Sky, Subnautic do. Those worlds feel truly Alien. I wasn't trying to make an apples to oranges comparison to actual game design.

I don't know what's up with that. I remember Albert, the art director, saying he was instructed to keep trees and grass green, water blue, etc. I don't know if there was some intention behind that or maybe it was just kovarex not liking alien-looking game worlds.

Albert mentioned the Alien Biomes mod (https://mods.factorio.com/mod/alien-biomes) in FFF-320: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-320 as inspiration for trying a few more crazy colours in the terrain.

Alien Biomes definitely does what Mythoss wants in regard to an 'alien feel'.

[Mythoss]

I don't know what's up with that. I remember Albert, the art director, saying he was instructed to keep trees and grass green, water blue, etc. I don't know if there was some intention behind that or maybe it was just kovarex not liking alien-looking game worlds.

In my opinion it is very good decision. They are clear colors I have used to. Strange oversaturated colors would look alien in first hours, but messy and stressing after that.

I disagree, what are the odds of a planet in a different solar system evolving with the EXACT same trees and brush? To me, it means the artist lacked creativity and imagination. Alien doesn't have to mean oversaturated. I also don't think every biomes needs to look alien, but some definitely should, since we are, after all, on an alien planet.

Expanding on the combat, that's apart of the game isn't a stretch by any means. If you don't like the combat there is sandbox mode or Sim City. You are oddly defensive about feedback from players who enjoy that aspect of the game. The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game and seen little love, it would make sense that players would want it expanded.

Combat is intentionally in side role. If I remove enemies I lose significant logistic challenge. Therefore I want to keep enemies. I have to build more factories and mine more resources to feed hungry defense lines. I would like to have more complex defense logistics as a part of engineering challenge, but as many (especially devs) have written there will not be any large content addition before 1.0.

You get strict negative feedback because concentrating in combat is easy way to make this kind of game very boring and it may be true danger if too many demand it and devs see possibility to earn more. It moves very easily focus from building to fighting. I understand that there are many players who like it. Actually much more than like building. But there are also huge number of combat games in market but very limited number of builging and logistic games like Factorio.

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

We all understand that. But we builders do not want to get just another full bodied combat game.

Your suggestions would destroy strategic elements even in combat part of the game. You think using natural barriers is abusing, but it may be also strategic decision. If there were enemies able to teleport anywhere (or fly or burrow, it is practically the same), players should just spawn all types of turrets everywhere. No matter are they common or rare, all production units should be defensed everywhere on map. In my opinion, it is much more interesting also from combat point of view to be able to make strategic decisions and get benefits of clever thinking. And if you think real defense strategy, modern military troops use terrain very carefully to control enemy moving and enhance own defense position instead of just running on each other on huge field like biters (I always wonder why warfare was like that so many millennia).

Have you tried mods? There are some mods which concentrates on combat and make game much harder if you want.

The majority of these complaints from you guys that just enjoy the building aspect could be resolved with a difficulty slider and or a no fliers checkbox. Keep in mind you are the vocal minority on these forums, and there is a huge playerbase out there that doesn't just want a logistical problem solver. There are plenty of puzzlers out there. Many of us enjoy all the aspects of the game, and want them expanded upon.

I think there is nothing wrong with using choke points and it's a strategy I use as well, but I also think biters should be able to get to you. I don't think cheesing the terrain in a way that biters can't even reach you or just barely so they funnel in is abusing the games limitations, and pretty cheaty. Fliers would solve that to some extent.

Mods are not a great solution for a number of reason. If added enemies aren't in the base game, then I won't see them in the new campaigns or game modes for 1. Another reason, is they don't come with the tools to manage new threats. New turrets, production lines, ect. Mods are also often buggy. There actually really aren't that many biter mods, as mentioned above, because the amount of knowledge a modder has to have to put them in as well.

For reference, the game Mindustry, does a much, much better job at combat. There are many more turret options, many turrets can get loaded with different ammo types to change the way the guns work. There are still lots of logistical problems to solve and I can find the time to do it between waves just fine.

[ytsejam]

Expanding on the combat, that's apart of the game isn't a stretch by any means. If you don't like the combat there is sandbox mode or Sim City. You are oddly defensive about feedback from players who enjoy that aspect of the game. The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game and seen little love, it would make sense that players would want it expanded.

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

Wrong. If you don't like combat you simply turn bitters off on freeplay. You're suggesting people go play Sim City if they don't like combat, but you're the one who seems to want to play a different game, not the players who don't want to turn Factorio into some strategy combat game, or whatever you're suggesting.

I like bitters, I enjoy the pressure they add in early-mid game, I never play with them turned off or below default settings. At the same time, I have no interest in have an warfare with them most of the time. That's not what this game is about.

[5thHorseman]

Keep in mind you are the vocal minority on these forums

We should ALL keep that in mind.

You should further keep in mind that in asking for a change in the base gameplay set up by the developers, you are the one who needs to prove that your opinion should supersede the developers'.

[Mythoss]

Expanding on the combat, that's apart of the game isn't a stretch by any means. If you don't like the combat there is sandbox mode or Sim City. You are oddly defensive about feedback from players who enjoy that aspect of the game. The combat is arguably the weakest part of the game and seen little love, it would make sense that players would want it expanded.

Why is it hard to understand some players enjoy the building / layout aspect of the game, others enjoy managing threats and the tower defense mini game, while others, like myself, enjoy both?

Wrong. If you don't like combat you simply turn bitters off on freeplay. You're suggesting people go play Sim City if they don't like combat, but you're the one who seems to want to play a different game, not the players who don't want to turn Factorio into some strategy combat game, or whatever you're suggesting.

I like bitters, I enjoy the pressure they add in early-mid game, I never play with them turned off or below default settings. At the same time, I have no interest in have an warfare with them most of the time. That's not what this game is about.

If the game isn't suppose to involve combat then why is there combat in the game? Tanks, Turrets, flamethrowers, artillery wagons, laser turrets all beg to differ. Adding a little complexity to the 1 dimension combat we currently have with biters isn't exactly crazy idea nor is it game breaking or vastly changing the experience. Suggesting otherwise is purely hyperbolic. I think most people would agree a few different biters types as threats would be interesting, they don't have to be flying units since that seems to trigger you and a few others so hard.

[Xelephant]

I don't agree that this game needs more biters or expantions on the combat mechanics. Combat is a sidenote and i don't want it to be busy work, i have enough to do within the factory.

I don't know how many players want to extend on combat, acutuelly no one does. Most Players are a silent majority and that might never change.

[Koub]

If the game isn't suppose to involve combat then why is there combat in the game?

This is an abusive generalization. Nobody said the game isn't supposed to involve combat, just that combat was not the main focus of the game as the Devs intend to create it.

Tanks, Turrets, flamethrowers, artillery wagons, laser turrets all beg to differ. Adding a little complexity to the 1 dimension combat we currently have with biters isn't exactly crazy idea nor is it game breaking or vastly changing the experience. Suggesting otherwise is purely hyperbolic.

Warfare between two camps is always a game measures and countermeasures. Either a camp has a strength the other can't counter, and it's basically the winner, or both camps can counter the other's weapons, and it's a status quo.
Either the devs give to the biters an advantage the player can't counter, and this small addition will drastically change the game, or the devs add a new advantage and a countermesure to prevent it, and we'll be back to the current situation.

The devs have already written that the biters' role was to put a continuous pressure that drains some of the resources from research/factory building into combat. That's what they are designed for. If you need sources, I can find them, but it'd take some time, and I have better things to do so I'd rather not .

I think most people would agree a few different biters types as threats would be interesting.

That's what you think. I think the opposite. None of us has any data to back up tour beliefs, so it's all moot at this point.
However, the overwhelmingly positive Steam score raising Factorio in the top two or three best games on Steam makes me think people like the game as it is. Not a proof, but a hint.