End game theory and gameplay ideas

[HornyRooster]

From what I can collect I am not alone in feeling the end-game of factorio to be sorta bland. Your reward for launching a rocket is.... pat yourself on the back, you just launched a rocket. I see the developers have understood there is a problem with the end game as well and are proposing a infinite tech tree where you never run out of tech but it becomes increasingly more expensive. I think there is a lack of clearity of what exactly we want from the end-game, so I will try to make that clear and then propose a solution.

I believe we want the end game to be pretty much like the mid-game. We want to expand but still be challenged at the same time. I am not talking artificial challenges like, I want to make 1000 circuits per minute, or I want to have 5 giant mega bases. No I mean, we want the game to ramp up its difficulty in tangent to our base expansion. In other words, as our base gets bigger and becomes like a huge octopus, the game reacts with tweaks that cause it to become harder hold it together.

A couple of ideas come to mind, one of which is something the devs already proposed, ie. never ending tech tree. The only problem with the never ending tech tree is it becomes a generic resource sink. It's uninteresting and boring. I would love this to be coupled with an alien difficulty modifier that is tied to energy produced. As you produce more energy to feed your hungry factory monster, the aliens start to attack more frequently and maybe throw in a boss alien every once in a while. The boss would basically be a bigger harder alien that rapes face and can't really be stopped except by stupid amounts of turrets. In other words, it would take your personal attention to deal with it rather than just letting your automated turret defenses you placed so diligently, take care of it, since you can't place stupid amounts of turrets everywhere.

People might say, we already have pollution, that's what causes aliens to attack more and to spawn hives. I find pollution to be somewhat inadequate because it just doesn't ramp up the difficulty enough and can be somewhat controlled to a high degree once you go solar. Also when you reach a certain point in base creation, you are pretty much 100% protected against the alien threat. That should never be the case. Why? Simple boredom. If you get to a point where there are no threats, then there are no risks. There should always be a risk/reward. Should I build that satellite outpost so far away? Will I be able to protect it when the inevitable shit storm of aliens come (maybe have a very rare random attack by a huge amount of aliens happen every so often, which can overwhelm any small satellite base) That should always be a decision. What is the risk/reward of further expansion? If satellite expansion is merely a cookie cutter slap down base defenses and forget about it, then I believe there is something wrong there. The game becomes stagnant. This allows me to move on to the next topic, stagnation.

The game has the problem of end-game stagnation. Besides what I already talked about, how do we reduce stagnation. I would propose random events (one of which is the random boss alien attack) but others could be tied to item drops, or cost variability (it no longer takes x amount to make those circuits, but for x amount of time it takes y amount). Maybe every once in a while there is a special hive ( maybe the one where the boss sometimes comes from). Lets call it the royal hive. This royal hive would be tougher, and rarer, but would drop you special gear (or maybe special alien artifacts that can be researched to unlock extremely rare and expensive gear), maybe a better shield, a better gun, better ammo, etc. In other words, it makes it so the end-game has more to it than just, lets make a bigger base, lets launch more rockets, but lets explore more, lets take on harder hives for that cool gear you might get. The investment for this better gear should be a feat in itself. In other words, it would take tons of effort to obtain the gear either through research (special alien artifact drops) or through attacking (the royal hive could be surrounded by tons and tons of hives and have stupid amounts of protection that would require a huge investment of resources to eventually kill it).

Just my 2 cents,

Rooster

[SaintFlow]

I think this does belong in the ideas and suggestion forum, but apart from that:

yes. YES. I think this is the exact right approach to tackle the end game scenario. with game play theory. As it is always a possibility to go into peaceful mode, I think this is an awesome approach for normal mode. Survival. Not just in the first 5 hours, but until the bitter end. In a game like Factorio (at least after getting there once), I think there is no point in having a set end goal after which the game has no meaning or challenge anymore. Best case is that you can come up with a self regulating system which gets more and more difficult without stopping. I'd much rather try my hardest to withstand an ever growing alien threat, than to have no challenge at all after some point in the game! I think such a system would add SO MUCH MORE LONGEVITY to a map without being that much work to implement. And as we are still talking early access, it doesnt need to be perfect at the beginning. I think people like Rooster or me will be more than happy to help you test such systems by trying out how far we can get!

[_itg]

I've been thinking that the biggest weakness the game has isn't so much the endgame, but rather the fact that it's the same game every time you restart. I'm perfectly content to launch my rocket and begin again (although a more climatic end condition would be welcome), but there needs to be a reason to begin again. The first few times, you can make major improvements to your overall approach, but the fact is, doing the exact same thing every time is perfectly possible and perfectly adequate. What I want is to be forced to say, "what I did last time was great, but it just isn't going to work on this map." That's not an easy thing to accomplish, of course, but there are a variety of things that would help. Space-restricting terrain features like mountains or ridges would force you to adapt your "macro-layout" to the particular situation, although individual parts of the factory would work the same every time. Rare minerals to mine (of which you'd likely only have access to 1-2 before the late game) could be added which are useful but not strictly required, but that would require redoing a lot of the tech tree and add some complexity. Certain recipes could be partly randomized, in order to force you to focus on different techs and resources. Imagine if blue science randomly required rockets instead of red circuits, for example.

[Xterminator]

I've been thinking that the biggest weakness the game has isn't so much the endgame, but rather the fact that it's the same game every time you restart. I'm perfectly content to launch my rocket and begin again (although a more climatic end condition would be welcome), but there needs to be a reason to begin again. The first few times, you can make major improvements to your overall approach, but the fact is, doing the exact same thing every time is perfectly possible and perfectly adequate. What I want is to be forced to say, "what I did last time was great, but it just isn't going to work on this map." That's not an easy thing to accomplish, of course, but there are a variety of things that would help. Space-restricting terrain features like mountains or ridges would force you to adapt your "macro-layout" to the particular situation, although individual parts of the factory would work the same every time. Rare minerals to mine (of which you'd likely only have access to 1-2 before the late game) could be added which are useful but not strictly required, but that would require redoing a lot of the tech tree and add some complexity. Certain recipes could be partly randomized, in order to force you to focus on different techs and resources. Imagine if blue science randomly required rockets instead of red circuits, for example.

I think this is a really good point and pretty much how I feel as well. I think having some sort of system or changes each game to make it a different challenge every time would be great. For a very long time I have wanted there to be things like rivers or mountains or canyons etc. However I'm not sure if that is possible or not with the 2D style of Factorio. If it is possible I think that alone could add a little the game.

Also things like you mentioned of rare resources that are very beneficial in some way but not required. Or something more to do with water, like aquatic enemies or rare resources in water and water transport to make it so there is a trade-off you have to decide between like " do I want to build near water to get these resources even though there are dangerous enemies there?".

Again, the idea of some randomization I think would help a lot. Have the science packs take a different item sometimes to force you to try new stuff rather than using the same layout you always use, etc.
Honestly there are so many possibilities, its just about whether they can get implemented or not.

[Zentay]

The game should shift away from revolving around research culminating in a rocket launch.

A radical departure from that would be to add diminishing returns to laboratories so that you would only want maybe up to 10.

Instead resources would go towards producing weapons (turrets, ammo, ballistic missiles, semi-autonomous robots, autonomous aerial vehicles), a nuclear reactor complete with the infrastructure to refine uranium (to produce energy, and nuclear products required for victory), and extra resource types.

The increased emphasis on weapons would not be for nothing, since the enemy would be much stronger. Enemies would guard key resource deposits that can only be taken with sufficiently advanced military technology.

The idea is to have a more clearly defined progression, which each tier of military technology being required to survive after a certain point, and also required to defeat the enemies guarding resources. Siege worms would outrange all your turrets and guard important resource deposits and strong bases. They could only be defeated with ballistic missiles or airstrikes.

Turrets should also be de-emphasized. Why not create robot guards that will patrol and automatically defend the player's base?

[zak2oo]

I suggest stronger aliens that guard richer or new resources it is unbelievably rewarding and funnest part of the game for me and i would love to see stronger enemies. Maybe even rival human ai? i Love the thought of using all my factory output for military power.

[PCSplinter]

_itg wrote:
I've been thinking that the biggest weakness the game has isn't so much the endgame, but rather the fact that it's the same game every time you restart. I'm perfectly content to launch my rocket and begin again (although a more climatic end condition would be welcome), but there needs to be a reason to begin again. The first few times, you can make major improvements to your overall approach, but the fact is, doing the exact same thing every time is perfectly possible and perfectly adequate. What I want is to be forced to say, "what I did last time was great, but it just isn't going to work on this map." That's not an easy thing to accomplish, of course, but there are a variety of things that would help. Space-restricting terrain features like mountains or ridges would force you to adapt your "macro-layout" to the particular situation, although individual parts of the factory would work the same every time. Rare minerals to mine (of which you'd likely only have access to 1-2 before the late game) could be added which are useful but not strictly required, but that would require redoing a lot of the tech tree and add some complexity. Certain recipes could be partly randomized, in order to force you to focus on different techs and resources. Imagine if blue science randomly required rockets instead of red circuits, for example.

I like this idea a lot!
To deepen this idea further... how about different planets/environments/biodomes. Just like you have a lava/rocky/sandy/watery planet and you have to adjust your factory to this new type of terrain. As _itg suggested a rocky planet has many areas where you can't build on, a lava planet doesn't have wood or coal but there is need to build pipelines for the lava to fuel your furnaces and a sandy planet requieres to build fundations for tech2+ buildings. Combine that with the space travel and special goods constraint to a unique environment, which then must be used with goods from different planets... that would be the greatest Endgame ever. Or...

a different approach would be different winning terms as seen in the civilization games. You can win either by defeating enemies (bosses, numbers, whatever), building the rocket, building a special building (like in Anno 1404 the imperial cathedral), researching a special technology, terraform the planet or supply earth with goods.
Combining that with the different planet suggestion: there maybe is a planet with no aliens, so you can't archive the "destroy enough enemies"-ending and the technology ending (because lacking material for the alien science pack). On the other hand you have found a planet that you can't terraform or isn't within reach of earth teleport network, so the player must focus on fighting enemies.

[River17]

I also think endgame needs some enhancement, which will surely come.

I have been thinking about an idea that after say 20 satellites are launched there is enough to signal your 'home' world who will send a rocket after you have built a landing pad, which can only be built in a specific location that is at a random point at a fixed radius from the start area ( say maybe a 100,000) tiles out. It could be marked with blue grass after the 20th satellite goes up.

This would put you in a search mode after the 20th satellite, then build a rail out to it to bring resources to build the landing pad. Rocket arrives, but it only has enough fuel to take you part the way back to your homeworld, and can only carry limited resources for you to rebuild again on the next closest world.

This could go on a few times with the new worlds being slightly different and the landing pad zone being even further out from the start area.

[Pipebomb]

Have construction sim games really ever had "end game" content though? I do like the idea of an INSANELY entrenched boss hidden on the map. Or spawns once your factory is consuming a certain amount of electricity. That would make the most sense for Factorio and possibly the most easiest to implement. Maybe a UFO reward once you kill it.

I still like the idea of a never ending tech tree too for those w OCD.

[CosmicOsmo]

How about a new-game-plus type of endgame? Build your factory, build your rocket... and get in it! Take the rocket and whatever supplies fit inside to a new planet, asteroid, or comet, with slightly different mechanics and challenges, different natives, different resources.

[ssilk]

Time to bring in facts.

http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-64

The plans for 0.12

Now, when the stable for 0.11 is starting to look possible, we can start to talk about our plans for the 0.12. The main thing planned for 0.12 is something we were referring as "The endgame content" that would replace the current cheap ending of the game. Once the player reaches the corresponding level of technology, he will be able to build rocket bases + rockets. But not those small rockets used for fighting enemies, but huge rockets used to get things into the orbit. Once he gets something on the orbit, he will use the material to build the spaceship there. The building will be similar as in normal game, but the player will first have to build the foundations (space platform) first. The platform will get the more expensive the bigger it gets. The player will then put all the needed machines, engines, and the valuable stuff on the ship. Once he is ready, he will start the ship. The ship will have to survive the trip on itself, it will have to contain small factory setup to process the energy and materials found on the way. It will have to provide the defense from all the asteroids and other dangerous stuff it can encounter. Once it reaches its destination, the valuable cargo can be sold at the local galaxy market. Once the player sells enough of the stuff, he won the game by becoming a rich bastard. No saving of the planet or the race, we decided to go for much more realistic storyline There are other plans for the 0.12 but let's keep it for the future friday facts

http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-73

... The direction we like the most is, that the player builds his rescue ship on the orbit in similar fashion as in the space run, so it can fly to some rendezvous location where the colonisation ship is waiting in some kind of hibernated state. ....

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-74

Endgame brainstorming

The ideas for the endgame content are slowly crystalizing. With kovarex, we have spent quite a few tram rides back home in the evening by talking about it. On top of it yesterday we have explained our ideas to everyone in the team and then we all discussed it. I will very briefly (we have talked about it in the past posts) summarize what the plan is as of now. From the story perspective we are building (and sending) a spaceship for civilians rescue mission (they are stuck in a broken ship in space). This will involve:

1. Building a silo on the ground and sending necessary material to the orbit via rocket launches. This will be the production part. The spaceship parts will require a lot of resources and your factory needs to provide them.
2. Building the ship on the orbit. This will be the thinking part. Basically you will need to build a small fully automated factory on a space platform.
3. Running the simulation. This will be the movie part. You can sit back and see whether the ship you built stands the test of rescuing the fellow citizens.

The ship will need to be able to move, generate electricity, get the resources, defend itself and ... (we will see). We will keep you up to date about exact ways of how we plan to do this in the future editions of Friday Facts. Stay tuned

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8751&p=71603#p71603

In the end he gave me a simple question. "Do you thing that you would enjoy the endgame as we plan it?" (with the space platform and all that kind of stuff). And I said: "Yes, of course. If done well it will be a lot of fun. Same basic concepts and mechanics applied in a new environment." And that is it. He made me realize that we both personally believe it will be a good ending.

I think this is an important posting, cause it explains, why the above is not just a fake or nice words.

And to understand, why it is not already there:
http://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-111 , where they shifted that all to v0.13, because of reasons.

In my honest opinion we see also a v0.14 before this dream comes true.

[sillyfly]

We have been discussing this topic for some time already, and we decided that the plan of the space platform would be too much if we really want to keep aiming for having 1.0 finished in a year.

(from fff#111)

Doesn't this mean none of the above mentioned plans will make it to 1.0? No space platform, no space factory, no colonizers in hibernation, etc.

[ssilk]

No.

See this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18764&p=124377#p125228

... however the topic is still very interesting for us. Hence the most probable option at the moment is to wrap-up the game with the current end goal (launching rocket to space) and expand to space in continuation or data-disk.
...We decided to share our intensions with the understanding that if we need to shift the direction (which is often necessary) then some people will be disappointed.

[Kewlhotrod]

the game could go into multiple directions, all of them couldn't be terrible I like the idea of going of into space and building factorys on other worlds rather than go into the RPG experience, thats not what really factorio is about imo.
edit -- would also help the fix for the always desire to start over because of messy factory heh, just inhabit another world with the technology you've researched.

[brunzenstein]

The end game could be simple. Instead of going into orbit go underground and mine / prepare a shelter for the few survivors society hit by a natural disaster / terror attac
There is a lot involved. Food production, waste management & water supply, heating and med. - you name it.

Sorry to say: In times we live now, a more realistic scenario thought.

[Tepalus]

So, what's about this;

The rocket you launch is a) a way to get away from the planet to discover more planets or b) is a little drone for other survivers. They will arrive after you made the planet or a piece of it lifeable... So you have now a completely new techtree with the endgame and when the survivers arrive (maybe on landingplatforms you must build) they will life in houses you build, go to explore and are a bit like drones but don't work in the factory...

[sillyfly]

No.

See this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18764&p=124377#p125228

... however the topic is still very interesting for us. Hence the most probable option at the moment is to wrap-up the game with the current end goal (launching rocket to space) and expand to space in continuation or data-disk.
...We decided to share our intensions with the understanding that if we need to shift the direction (which is often necessary) then some people will be disappointed.

Err... This only supports my point, that the end-game for Factorio is the current rocket launching (perhaps with some tweaking), and all other plans for space platforms etc. will be either in expansions or new games. At least that's how I understand it, please explain how this can be understood any differently.

[Kazaanh]

End-game? Supporting colonies establishing on the planets? They would request some X resource and you would have to provide them, if not it would slow them down or even fail-colonization attempt. End-game I think should be focused around the natives, like you should be able to capture them, build a prison and test/get dna samples etc
Also biters bodies should be used as a materials too, like for leather or some fancy biter boots.

Trading with other planets/ships/moons? How about building heli-pads for small dropships/small spaceships so they could land and pack/unload resource they requested from you/want to buy. There should be a page with lots of contracts and you should choose which one you want to complete. Ie mass-producing ammo/weapons to support some military or supplying fresh colony with smelted iron/copper etc.

What about rewards? Some new weapon blueprints? Alien artifacts?

About gameplay I would like to see droids, yeah like these from the starwars pm and maybe a driveable trucks? cargo trucks? oil trucks? expanded train system with more wagons? like transporting vehicles, armored wagons? Artillery wagons? I would love to see more combinations like combining a flamethrower and tank or tank + solar panel = mobile power source, tank+radar = mobile radar etc

[SiC]

I haven't reached the endgame myself yet, but if it gets stale later on I might suggest taking a look at Anno 1404 for some inspiration on how to mix it up. In Anno 1404 you can reach a point where everything basically sustains itself, and there's no room left to expand to without going to war/spending ridiculous amounts of money buying out islands from other players. Yet there tend to be micro-goals along the way which mostly come from Diplomacy, where you can take on quests which give rewards, which usually are improvements for your ships, building production, free resources when a certain amount of items gets traded (I managed to get enough glasses for the highest level population through getting them for free while trading, no production required ), etc.

But maybe another way to mix things up is having a bunch of 'side-grades' instead of straight-up upgrades, perhaps involving new resources which would be optional to get, but which could give you benefits to tweak a factory to your playstyle and making it more unique with each playthrough. Maybe adding new biomes with special qualities could be an idea. For example, landing on a lava-planet could give you special uses for lava-rivers and such, giving you the option to use those natural resources for energy instead of having to use steam engines, reducing pollution signatures. Or you could use the heat of the lava in special smelters that make use of it to smelt ore.

Or if you have an ice planet, heating requirements go up, requiring more coal to smelt stuff. But maybe you could find special geysers there, which require high level items/structures to utilize, which will then help you with smelting in the lategame. You wouldn't have to do it, but it would be a side-path to pursue that shakes things up from your regular playthrough.

More terrain variety wouldn't hurt either. Big mountains, canyons, etc. that obstruct your ability to build a 'comfortable' base like you're used to.

[ssilk]

No.

See this post: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=18764&p=124377#p125228

... however the topic is still very interesting for us. Hence the most probable option at the moment is to wrap-up the game with the current end goal (launching rocket to space) and expand to space in continuation or data-disk.
...We decided to share our intensions with the understanding that if we need to shift the direction (which is often necessary) then some people will be disappointed.

Err... This only supports my point, that the end-game for Factorio is the current rocket launching (perhaps with some tweaking), and all other plans for space platforms etc. will be either in expansions or new games. At least that's how I understand it, please explain how this can be understood any differently.

That can be understood as: "We just want to come to version 1.0. And we don't want to promise anything after that, but that was our target and we still want to reach it. But who knows?"