Are bitters too hard to kill in end game?

[Zourin]

Which isn't really true. Gun turrets get 3 shotted unless you're standing there repairing them, and their range is significantly shorter. Like I said. The range of a gun turret PLUS the range at which you can build is shorter than the range of a Big Worm.

Again: you can't win this game by fighting. You need to built. And think. Much more, than in other games. Not everybody likes it.

Wrong, you can't win this game without fighting. Without alien artifacts, you can't win. Without resources, you can't build. If you're penned in by things you can't clear for pretty much the entire game, that's a pretty huge non-starter. Add in that the Green-Blue gap just got absolutely massive, not to mention drastically increasing factory complexity, with the new Oil junk, it's just that much harder to get the 'end game' stuff you need to clear out the easily overbearing camps. People get bored of building constantly, there needs to be a reasonable expectation that players are going to engage in combat to obtain resources. There's a reasonable expectation they're going to HAVE to.

[ssilk]

Uhm. Misread. I thought big biter, not big worm. For big worms I just don't built in their range... You can't kill that with turrets. With lasers you have a chance, because larger range.

And yes, in the end you need to fight. But not in the beginning. There you need to watch to your pollution rate etc.

And there are maps, which can't be won. This is very disappointing, when you see, that you don't can win, but this is alpha version.

To the rest: well. Your opinion. After playing 0.9 how often? If you want to fight, play around with the map generator. Or use the map editor, put armor and weapons in chest and have fun.

[tbarros]

Noob here,

and after 10 hours ish of gameplay and fiddling around my starting areai ran out of iron... current stituation: F*cked

got capsules, modular armor, grenads + every single freaking research from red and green packs vs 2 spwaners + 3 big worms + some medium i think = getting owned every time
i think i must perfect the turret approach as i didnt try with laser turrets (yeah nobbish).

biters wont even reach me but the moment one big worm set eyes on me i am gone. i killed 1 or 2 worms once only to be killed at the end.
sorry to say this but "think smart" my @ss! as if the resouce generation isnt a big problem already from taking almost 1-2h trying to get a suitable place to start and then after finding a kinda nice area i decide "yeah i can do this, theres a couple of patches here and there and i can create my station and bring those goodies to me..." <-WRONG!! the bitter seem to love to create a ring around me for some reason, its like they smell where i want to go.

Military upgrades are a joke. yeah you CAN kill a single spwaner with heavy armor and piercing bullets after hmm lets say 2hours into game play. 2-3 spwaner maybe-ish anything else and you are dead.

i dont want to rant about this but basically after seeing this post and having 10hours lost because i cant get to a new patch of iron because i am too freaking weak to clear an area is just BS.

and dont say this game is about time pressure cause it isnt BUT it feels like it. the longer i stay on my corner the more chances i will be stranded.

then i come to the forums, check a few youtube videos and i am like WTF am i supposed to do?
explorer early on with a pew pew gun to put a few concrete blocks far away from my base and lose a couple of hours doing this? well 2 hours lost early game not sure if thats gonna help.
should i "cheat" myself and find a ubber field of iron next to cousy patch of stone,coal, copper and oil? yeah i guess thats the only way for me now.

i am not saying to give us MOAR weapons (well when you get Mk2 armor it pretty much game over for bitter) but give us an artillery turret that requires the radar coordination to fire at a location at the expense of tons of resources! make the first tiers miss the spot by a lot so we need 3 or more guns firing at the same time to clear a patch of 3 worms and 3 spwaners.

why turrets well because this game is about building and managing, when it comes to personal defence that should be your last resort.
or if you think thats a bit too much give me a freaking tank!

and thats my 2 cents

EDIT: or make the capsules stay at the place that were summoned? i dunno any quick fix will do

[kovarex]

Noob here,

and after 10 hours ish of gameplay and fiddling around my starting areai ran out of iron... current stituation: F*cked

got capsules, modular armor, grenads + every single freaking research from red and green packs vs 2 spwaners + 3 big worms + some medium i think = getting owned every time
i think i must perfect the turret approach as i didnt try with laser turrets (yeah nobbish).

biters wont even reach me but the moment one big worm set eyes on me i am gone. i killed 1 or 2 worms once only to be killed at the end.
sorry to say this but "think smart" my @ss! as if the resouce generation isnt a big problem already from taking almost 1-2h trying to get a suitable place to start and then after finding a kinda nice area i decide "yeah i can do this, theres a couple of patches here and there and i can create my station and bring those goodies to me..." <-WRONG!! the bitter seem to love to create a ring around me for some reason, its like they smell where i want to go.

Military upgrades are a joke. yeah you CAN kill a single spwaner with heavy armor and piercing bullets after hmm lets say 2hours into game play. 2-3 spwaner maybe-ish anything else and you are dead.

i dont want to rant about this but basically after seeing this post and having 10hours lost because i cant get to a new patch of iron because i am too freaking weak to clear an area is just BS.

and dont say this game is about time pressure cause it isnt BUT it feels like it. the longer i stay on my corner the more chances i will be stranded.

then i come to the forums, check a few youtube videos and i am like WTF am i supposed to do?
explorer early on with a pew pew gun to put a few concrete blocks far away from my base and lose a couple of hours doing this? well 2 hours lost early game not sure if thats gonna help.
should i "cheat" myself and find a ubber field of iron next to cousy patch of stone,coal, copper and oil? yeah i guess thats the only way for me now.

i am not saying to give us MOAR weapons (well when you get Mk2 armor it pretty much game over for bitter) but give us an artillery turret that requires the radar coordination to fire at a location at the expense of tons of resources! make the first tiers miss the spot by a lot so we need 3 or more guns firing at the same time to clear a patch of 3 worms and 3 spwaners.

why turrets well because this game is about building and managing, when it comes to personal defence that should be your last resort.
or if you think thats a bit too much give me a freaking tank!

and thats my 2 cents

EDIT: or make the capsules stay at the place that were summoned? i dunno any quick fix will do

Thank you for the report of the gameplay frustrations, there are few things we would like to do with it eventually.
a) Introduce difficulties for freeplay
b) Indicate enemy evolution somehow
c) Implement the longer range artillery.
d) Try to make the starting conditions more stable.

[tbarros]

Thank you for the report of the gameplay frustrations, there are few things we would like to do with it eventually.
a) Introduce difficulties for freeplay
b) Indicate enemy evolution somehow
c) Implement the longer range artillery.
d) Try to make the starting conditions more stable.

I didnt want to sound like i dont like the game, cause i really enjoy it and so far i restarted a couple more time even with a mod to help me at the start (it saves me quite a bit early on without seeming too overpowered)

but take this with a pinch of salt: a fool with a gun will think he can conquer the world
(all of us did that stupid thing of charging to a bitter camp once we got the machine gun only to get our sorry bottoms kicked (insert sad face here) )

[Sir Nick]

Actually, all you need to take out even the largest biter nests in midgame are a car, a rocket launcher, a crapton of rockets (preferrably evenly split regular/explosive - then 2 rocket launchers) and a place with a load of laser turrets. Then you need a lot of driving skill, but it is doable. Just DO NOT approach the base close enough to let several worms get a lock on you at once. Drive by at extreme range for the launcher, fire one or two missiles (later, when you get rocket shooting speed things get MUCH more fun) and do a circle somewhere safe. Repeat until base is in ruins, do not do it at night, do not make breakes while hammering spawners - they regenerate too fast, after each kill or when your car gets too damaged drive by your defences and get rid of the herd on your heels. The sole drawback - totally unusable in forests without clearing the surrounding terrain first (explorockets rock).

[Marqee]

There is to put a limit also to very-end game

i'm at lvl 13 of following robot tech.
lvl 14 is in progress.
(for sure i could finish the game very earlier. But i'm testing all.
Going to study all tech and then compare weapon and so on )

at lvl 13 i can spawn 63 destroyer robots following me.
I can annihilate any kind of alien base just entering in the middle.
that's is too overpower.

with 20 robots ( do not remember the tech lvl ) i coul fight alien base of middle/big dimension with some tecnique and time.
and get artifacts to finish the game.

There must be introduced some more challenge at high end. Lowering the loweringthe following robot science or with the introduction of some new "enemy" that give some next gen artifact maybe or a final big boss.
In this case there is need for smem new science tech and recipes/craft.

i've also noticed that after destroying all the enemy bases around me , the game is pretty finished cause there is non more respawn.
think there will be need of an algoritm of "enemy migration" an repopulation of zones.
See maps linked.

http://imageshack.com/a/img28/481/9ddr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img89/4797/os3p.jpg

As far as i have played the difficulty is divided in 3 zones right now.

1) starting of the game , dependig of zones/enemy nearby ,it can be playble , or hard or impossible to play
2) mid game , as soon as you get laser turret , doable quite always with a low/medium difficulty.
(in 0.8.8 laser turrets where so easy to reach that the game was enough too simple.)
3) late game , mean mk2 armour + portable fusion reactor + energy shields + batteries +exoskeleton equipment, you are unbeatable. ( with the help of destryers robots , of course )
And when you reach that the game is already finished by hours.

p.s. exoskeleton speed bonus stacks , making any car useless..
got 4 in my mk2 armour and i'm walking fast as my train....

[ssilk]

Right!
Underline everything. Good watching and good description.

[Alfdaur]

Thank you for the report of the gameplay frustrations, there are few things we would like to do with it eventually.
a) Introduce difficulties for freeplay
b) Indicate enemy evolution somehow
c) Implement the longer range artillery.
d) Try to make the starting conditions more stable.

I would love to get me a piece of artillery. I wouldn't mind if it was quite expansive in construction and use. Currently I'm playing a so called "death world", and the biggest hurdle is getting enough alien artifacts to increase the number of destroyer bots that I can use.

I managed to kill of a nest of five spawners with ~30 grenades, 50 armour piercing rounds on a SMG and heavy armour. I took out a second nest of eight spawners with the use construction robots and laser turrets. With these artifacts I would be able to have enough destroyer bots to start wreaking any nest. Buth to be honest, an artillery piece in our arsenal would be great. The wurms are just an instant block in clearing any nest on your own (no laser or bots).

If the long range artillery would be implemented, it would be really cool if sieging would cause major bitter attacks. So that sieging wouldn't be one sided.

[hipscumbag]

Thank you for the report of the gameplay frustrations, there are few things we would like to do with it eventually.
a) Introduce difficulties for freeplay
b) Indicate enemy evolution somehow
c) Implement the longer range artillery.
d) Try to make the starting conditions more stable.

I'm also mostly new to the game (but passionately in love with it!), but I think the combat is not a lot of fun. I am stuck on the 5th campaign mission and grinding my teeth! Taking the fight to them personally is against the spirit of the game, if you ask me! I think artillery would be a great idea more in the game's spirit of automation: something that demands resources and a logistics to supply and defend.

I like the role of the enemies in the early and mid game, when they are a roving threat that you can automate away (e.g. with a belt that supplies turrets with munitions). I dislike having to wade directly into their bases, desperately throwing grenades in an attempt to kill enough biters that I can afford the time to fire a few rockets before i'm swarmed again. A respawn timer would help this a lot!

[ssilk]

Well, the main task is to kill the spawners, before they can respawn.

I'm for example not good with the car. My strategy is use poison to reduce health and kill the worms and then to lay out many defender bots to protect me and concentrate myself to keep protected and kill the nests only. For my protection I also lay most times a wall of lasers, where I can fall back. But once you begin with fight, you need to make the biters busy with the bots, until you reach your target.

Add shields to your character, as much as possible.

This strategy is also heavy resource eating.

[hipscumbag]

Well, the main task is to kill the spawners, before they can respawn.

I'm for example not good with the car. My strategy is use poison to reduce health and kill the worms and then to lay out many defender bots to protect me and concentrate myself to keep protected and kill the nests only. For my protection I also lay most times a wall of lasers, where I can fall back. But once you begin with fight, you need to make the biters busy with the bots, until you reach your target.

Add shields to your character, as much as possible.

This strategy is also heavy resource eating.

Unfortunately, I have none of those options in the campaign combat level (the one immediately following the introduction of trains, which was a marvelously-designed level).

I also think it would be more in the spirit of the game to build & maintain a standing army of combat robots rather than disposable droids whom you have to escort personally into battle. Ideally, you could set the robots to stand guard, patrol, or siege enemy positions, but at the cost of electricity and supply. Having to fight the aliens yourself is soooooooo "manual inserter"!

[ssilk]

Unfortunately, I have none of those options in the campaign combat level (the one immediately following the introduction of trains, which was a marvelously-designed level).

Well. You have. Find it. if you don't find, search a bit in this forum or come back and ask.

I also think it would be more in the spirit of the game to build & maintain a standing army of combat robots rather than disposable droids whom you have to escort personally into battle. Ideally, you could set the robots to stand guard, patrol, or siege enemy positions, but at the cost of electricity and supply. Having to fight the aliens yourself is soooooooo "manual inserter"!

[Teurlinx]

I don't know. In the late game a base with say 10 spawners spawns SO many big biters that even with max upgraded shotgun and power armor Mk2 you take a lot of shots to kill the 50? 80? or so big biters spawning at a time. You still pretty much need 50ish laser turrets backing you up to even get rid of the pack or chuck a 100 or so grenades on them. You also can't just laser rush them as the biters will overwhelm the lasers.

The real issue is not killing the big biters, the problem is getting to the spawners when there's a very thick layer of big biters in between you can't kill quickly enough. At that point it becomes darting in trying to hit the base --> run around the laser turrets until the pack is dead, then go in once more hoping for a hit on the nest. It's just that thick mass of big biter meat, grr

Once you have a couple of them down it gets a lot easier, but until that point...
This seems to be the case for 10+ spawner bases which you have left in your heavily polluted areas. A similarly sized base in a non-polluted area seems to be a cakewalk in contrast.

[ssilk]

Yes. The spawners release only a limited number of biters. If you always kill the biters, they will kill you. You need to kill the spawners first.

[Inzann]

I don't think they are to hard but the game currently offers you no good way to deal with big spawns IMO. I don't think it makes laser rushing bases for example. I think more weapons or even offensive vehicles are needed.

[ssilk]

See the video from this post: https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... 433#p25121
and the followup.

It clearly shows, how to deal with it. But needs to mention, that they had a full equipped character. But with lower research, the biters are also much less harmful.

[Okami]

I found it much harder to kill big bases early or midgame. Now with Endgame equippment i just wipe them away. Doesnt matter how large, and that without poison and mostly without destroyers.

The Key is to not fight the bitters, just run past them, and circle through the base shooting the spawners. start running away and shooting the bunch of bitters after the last spawner is down.
My setup is:
-Combat Shotgun, AP Rounds
-2 Exoskeletons
-4 Shield MK2
-2 Generators
-2 Laserdefenses
-rest batteries MK2

Never let your batteries run dry, or you will be to slow to escape the mob

[Teurlinx]

Yes. The spawners release only a limited number of biters. If you always kill the biters, they will kill you. You need to kill the spawners first.

Obviously, but if packs of 50-100 big biters spawn at a time there just is too thick a mass to kill the spawners directly. You have to dart in hope to get a shot or two at the spawner and then lead back the pack to defenses to deal with them. --> repeat.

[ssilk]

Well, there is also the rocket launcher. And think so: it's alpha, the fight is not perfect yet. But it will.