[tags] Forum Tagging System Proposal

[komrade_toast]

Technically this should go in the "Ideas and Suggestions" Board, but seeing as how (for now) it only relates to this board, I am posting it here. I was also going to wait to post this, but decided to just go ahead with it.
After some discussion with ssilk about a new "Combinator Logic" sub-thread, the following was reached:

Instead of a new Combinator only sub-thread, a tagging system should be used instead. What is meant by this is that when a new topic is posted the author of said topic should use tags in the topic title, to aid users in searching for certain gameplay mechanics. For now it would only be used in the "Show Your Creations" board, but could be expanded to all boards in the future if deemed acceptable.

The Combinator sub-thread is most likely unnecessary, and would contribute to over segmentation of the forums. For example if we have a Combinator only sub-thread, why not have a train specific sub-thread, or a logistics only sub-thread?

Here are some tags that I have proposed:

Code: Select all

[circ]  = Combinators, Circuit Network
[powr]  = Power setups (POWA! UNLIMITED POWA!)
[belt]  = Belts, duh!
[train] = Trains, Stations, etc...
[build] = Production Builds  (red circuit factories, science pack factories, mining outposts, Oil processing, etc...)
[defn]  = Base defense, Methods of biter extermination (turret creep, wall & turret builds, etc...)
[deco]  = Decorative builds (would be more useful if we had more colors of concrete, or things like in 5-Dim's Decoration mod)
[misc]  = Use this if your creation doesn't fit in to any of the above categories
[mods]  = Include this with any of the above tags if what you are showing off relies on a mod / is not possible in vanilla

Factorio version tag: [0.13.17] (just replace 0.13.17 with the version of Factorio being referenced. This can be found in the in-game menu under "About")

I tried to keep the number of tags to a minimal to make searching for certain criteria easier and more concise.
A post title formatted with tags could look like this: [circ] [powr] Using combinators to regulate steam power at night

I believe we should try limiting tags to a max of three per title, as to not over-complicate searching. Try to be descriptive enough with the title and don't just rely on tags. The tags would be there to aid in searching.
We may not need the [misc] tag, as I can't think of anything that couldn't be described by the other tags, although more can be added if need be.

It is also encouraged to change the title of your reply to a topic. When you reply to a topic, you are presented an option to change the subject line. This is VERY under utilized. We should use this more often, as the search algorithm will also search within the replies' subject line. For example, if a post was created about a certain combinator contraption that turns on your steam power after a minimum charge in your accumulators has been reached, and turns it off after a higher amount has been reached, and you use the same contraption / logic to create a train depot to request certain items when a minimum has been reached and stop requesting when a maximum has been reached, then go ahead and post it in the same topic as the original post. Just change the tags and subject. The original post may have had the tags "[circ] [powr]", yours could have the tags "[circ] [train]", the search algorithm will find both if you search for "[circ]" and only your reply to that post if you search "[trains]". I'm sorry if that sounds confusing, I will try my best to explain if anyone has questions.

I realize we can already do this, so it is not something that would need to be implemented per se, just standardized so we all use the same tags. Tell me what you think!

Links / Reference:
Original proposal for new sub-forum: Idea: New Sub-forum for all combinator related topics!
Thread I made, conversation with ssilk: Combinator Sub-Forum

[Koub]

Remember we may have 60 char max subject. A [build][train][circ][0.13.17] tag (3 + version number) will only let you about half (31 in fact) chars to "accurately describe" your post. I honestly think this is way too little. I already often struggle when I have to make a new topic, because 60 is not enough even for me.

[MeduSalem]

I'm already curious how this one will turn out, because I have my doubts about it... as always is the case with me.

Mostly my doubts are that new users won't read about the formalities (even if they are pinned) and are just going to post a new thread without tags anyways, so Mods have to edit all the titles afterwards to make them conform with the "standard".

And on top of that... what's with the older threads? I can't imagine anyone wanting to change/tag all the titles (though I would actually have the time to go through all of them because I'm kinda bored throughout my Insomnia nights anyways)... so the legacy of not using tags will always be present... and that's what would continue to encourage people not using tags.

Also what Koub said... the thread title length is a limiting factor that should not be forgotten about.

Another thing... name it "[power]" and "[def]" ... powr und defn sound weird for some reason... like it's a typo. :s


That's where I would say that sub-categories would be more practical, but I also understand the concern about segmenting the forum too much.

That said... doesn't phpBB forums support the display of Sub-Forums on the front/home?

RandomForumPicture

Like the entries I marked red in that random forum picture I just found while googling:

10974694_1584497761787706_3431936843062146231_o.jpg (80.15 KiB) Viewed 4777 times

[komrade_toast]

Mostly my doubts are that new users won't read about the formalities (even if they are pinned) and are just going to post a new thread without tags anyways, so Mods have to edit all the titles afterwards to make them conform with the "standard".

No one would be forced to use the tags, it is completely optional. But if you want to help other users, then using the tags would be nice. It is simply a way to classify your post so others can find it easily. I also wouldn't expect the mods to edit the title, I know if I were a mod I wouldn't be going around editing post titles and adding optional tags, just because the OP didn't use them.

Remember we may have 60 char max subject. A [build][train][circ][0.13.17] tag (3 + version number) will only let you about half (31 in fact) chars to "accurately describe" your post. I honestly think this is way too little. I already often struggle when I have to make a new topic, because 60 is not enough even for me.

Also what Koub said... the thread title length is a limiting factor that should not be forgotten about.

Unfortunately this is true. Unless that limit can be lengthened, then I don't really have a solution for it.

Another thing... name it "[power]" and "[def]" ... powr und defn sound weird for some reason... like it's a typo. :s

I was mainly trying to keep things short, so we could have more room for the actual title (60 char limit and all...). Originally the defense tag was just [def] but as ssilk pointed out, the search has a 4 character minimum, so just [def] wouldn't work.

That said... doesn't phpBB forums support the display of Sub-Forums on the front/home?

Pictures usually speak a thousand words, but in this case your picture says one, "Yes". I am not against a new sub-forum. I, in fact, support it as can be seen in the thread I started. But I do understand the over segmentation argument, and what ssilk had said in my linked post:

The reason for this is, that I counted about how much posts would fall into that new combinator category (I took about 100 posts and made a list in my head) and it was a bit low to make an own board out of the number of posts yet. Well, that might change of course in future, but it has another big problem: Most posts include, interesting other categories. Like energy, belt magic, etc. The biggest problem was, that I was many times (more than 30%) not able to put the posts in one category.

The fact that posts usually fall under more than one category is a big argument against the new sub-forum(s) for me. If I wanted to post about my smart train station using combinators, should it go in the combinator / circuit network sub-forum, or the trains sub-forum?

[Koub]

By the way ... what would tags add to plain text research ?
If I do an advanced search on combinator furnace, I will probably find posts talking about combinators and trains.
The problem is not the lack of tags, but the lack of people doing the effort to make a search.

[MeduSalem]

No one would be forced to use the tags, it is completely optional. But if you want to help other users, then using the tags would be nice. It is simply a way to classify your post so others can find it easily. I also wouldn't expect the mods to edit the title, I know if I were a mod I wouldn't be going around editing post titles and adding optional tags, just because the OP didn't use them.

Ah well... I was under the false impression that it would be like a rule that is somehow forced upon people. Makes me think about how extreme I am obviously thinking sometimes.

I was mainly trying to keep things short, so we could have more room for the actual title (60 char limit and all...). Originally the defense tag was just [def] but as ssilk pointed out, the search has a 4 character minimum, so just [def] wouldn't work.

Okay, I actually forgot about the 4 character minimum for searches... Makes sense then. Though I still can't help myself to think that "defn" sounds... weird.

Pictures usually speak a thousand words, but in this case your picture says one, "Yes". I am not against a new sub-forum. I, in fact, support it as can be seen in the thread I started. But I do understand the over segmentation argument, and what ssilk had said in my linked post:

The reason for this is, that I counted about how much posts would fall into that new combinator category (I took about 100 posts and made a list in my head) and it was a bit low to make an own board out of the number of posts yet. Well, that might change of course in future, but it has another big problem: Most posts include, interesting other categories. Like energy, belt magic, etc. The biggest problem was, that I was many times (more than 30%) not able to put the posts in one category.

The fact that posts usually fall under more than one category is a big argument against the new sub-forum(s) for me. If I wanted to post about my smart train station using combinators, should it go in the combinator / circuit network sub-forum, or the trains sub-forum?

Sounds reasonable.

[MrDrummer]

Why not implement a built-in tag system to the forums? Like below "subject" there is another box where you can select from a list of tags. The user could then add many tags (perhaps limit to 5).

The tags could then be used as part of advanced search of the forums.

The tags would then be displayed between the title and date, or just beside the date from the board view. Or perhaps just a hover-able image next to the post that will list each tag in a GUI. IDK. I was going to provide example annotations, but Greenshot doesn't like me today.

On a side note: i would suggest an additional tag that would suggest general building, because if someone was showing off their savegame, then they would need [power] [trains] etc etc, instead of just [save] (example)

[ssilk]

Well, there are of course plugins for phpBB, but they need to be installed to use them.
And don't forget: This system is completely voluntary (for now ). Because of that it makes also no sense to have tags for "general" or so. The same is, if you need three tags or more to describe your post: Makes not much sense, cause it means, that your post is somehow "general" or "misc". This tagging is useful to see your topics immediately, so I see it as some kind of courtesy, if you use it. Seeing it so this tries to standardize this type of courtesy.

I will see, how this "rule" works and change it, if useful.

I made this sticky now. Thanks to komrade_toast fo his efforts.

[komrade_toast]

Well, there are of course plugins for phpBB, but they need to be installed to use them.
And don't forget: This system is completely voluntary (for now ). Because of that it makes also no sense to have tags for "general" or so. The same is, if you need three tags or more to describe your post: Makes not much sense, cause it means, that your post is somehow "general" or "misc". This tagging is useful to see your topics immediately, so I see it as some kind of courtesy, if you use it. Seeing it so this tries to standardize this type of courtesy.

I will see, how this "rule" works and change it, if useful.

I made this sticky now. Thanks to komrade_toast fo his efforts.

Thank you for the sticky ssilk! I hope this reaches as many eyes as possible and we hear from everyone we can about this.
I am assuming that any extensions installed would mean some minor downtime for the forum website, correct? Either way, if an extension is deemed reasonable to install, I (and my curled mustache) support this.
I, however, am not sure of that fact that if a post needs more than three tags then it could be deemed as "miscellaneous". Being the person that first proposed the idea of a three tag limit, I am in full support of it. That being said, if someone wants to use more than three tags on a post I believe that they are being TOO specific. The point is to be concise.

Why not implement a built-in tag system to the forums? Like below "subject" there is another box where you can select from a list of tags. The user could then add many tags (perhaps limit to 5).

This. This is something I whole-heartedly support. I am not sure if such a plugin exists, as I am a desktop developer and not a web developer, but if it does exist then I would definitely suggest that it be added to the forums!

By the way ... what would tags add to plain text research ?
If I do an advanced search on combinator furnace, I will probably find posts talking about combinators and trains.
The problem is not the lack of tags, but the lack of people doing the effort to make a search.

Tags would add a way to search ONLY for the topic you are trying to find information on. For example, one could search for "[train][build]" to see only builds relating to trains. Whereas searching for that without the tags would be a bit tougher, and require searching through a lot of (possibly unrelated) posts. Without tags, the search would not be as inclusive as if we started using tags on the forums.
I do not think it is an under-utilization of the search functionality (unless there is data that could be shown to prove me wrong), but rather the ENORMOUS amount of posts that could be returned, that may not even relate to what a user is searching for.


On a side note, sorry for the lack of responses to this, I have been busy with work for a few days.

[ssilk]

After some weeks of watching I think we must say, that this idea seems not to work.

So after discussion and some sleep (I'm in holiday right now), I came to this solution:

So, I've created two new forums. I mainly followed Klonan's suggestion:
Combinator Creations
This board is to show, discuss and archive useful combinator- and logic-creations.
Smart triggering, counters, useful circuitry, switching as an art.
Please provide if possible always a blueprint of your creation.

Railway Setups
Smart setups of railway stations, intelligent routing, solutions to complex routing problems.
Please provide - only if it makes sense of course - a blueprint of your creation.

Also unstickied thread. Sorry for the afford that has been pushed into this and now seems to be useless, but I'm sure, the ideas posted here can be reused at some time, when we get a tagging system for phpBB (in some years or so ).