Smart Train Deliveries with Combinator Magick [0.13/0.14]

[doxsroxs]

Hmm, I fiddled a bit with it but cant make it output a large number with only one combinator... Any ideas?

This version only outputs station #1, so avoids the enumeration in the logic when powered and not yet in smart trains schedule.
However, it will request stuff to station #1 if you connect it to the bus before you add it to smart trains schedule.

Would be better to totally disable it somehow. I thought about nullifying the request ability, but it all requires multiple combinators.
Though to be honest Id rather have more combinators and less risk for errors, so might go that route unless you have a really good idea for how to do it with only one?

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Wrong blueprint, fixing and uploading...

Edit, seems I cannot export blueprints, Foreman just keeps exporting the same blueprint. Incidentally its not the one Im trying to export...
Edit 2, my Foreman mod is broken, or I dont know how it works... (even though I have used it lots before, if only blueprint string mod was updated...)

Edit 3
Ill just describe it instead, combinator checks for zero stn output, if zero, output stn #1 on green wire. Will not cause loop since its connected to stn box via red wire and will thus not see its own signal.

[siggboy]

You cannot output a constant from a decider, you'd need another combinator and then multiply. So it's probably the smallest possible solution to use two combinators (one decider, one arithmetic).

As you can see, the circuits grow quickly if you try to make things clean . Of course there's nothing wrong with making it bigger if you don't mind, it's just that I don't want to make an "official" release with those additions, because I'm quite happy with how small it is right now.

In any case, I don't recommend to connect the outpost before you have added it to the train line and it has been assigned a station number.

I also don't really see a problem with this, because you always have to explicitely connect the red wire to the station, it's not something that can happen by accident.

There's another way: you can connect a constant combinator to the train station that outputs an arbitrary (large) station number. But then you have to remember to remove/disable this combinator before you connect the station. If you forget to do that you have problems. I did have such a combinator in an early version of my blueprints, and I did not include it because it causes more potential problems than it solves.

You can also simply not use the automatically assigned station number at all -- that's the situation from 0.12 when SmartTrains did not have the possibility to output the station number. It was necessary to look it up and set it manually. The current situation is much better, believe me .

[doxsroxs]

It's not something that can happen by accident

I disagree on this one! Plenty of mistakes have been done when setting up stations
I think Ill add a few combinators to make the stations a bit more robust and reduce the chance of errors even if they are caused by user mistakes. Also remember Im playing a multiplayer game and Im not alone in messing with the stations.

If I have the time Ill upgrade the station blueprint to be inert and output a red status on one of the lamps if not set up the right way. Would be cool if you can check if the solution is good later

This is driven by the same reasoning where I install filters on all requesters, simply less of a mess to clean up if when something goes wrong

[doxsroxs]

This also gave me an idea regarding the provider stations.
How about adding a check to ensure inserters at provider stations are only active when a match has been made for delivery.
That way they wont start to load resources into any train arriving.
Could be handled via a counter just like we have today for the provider stations so they are once again disabled when the train is full.

[siggboy]

How about adding a check to ensure inserters at provider stations are only active when a match has been made for delivery.
That way they wont start to load resources into any train arriving.
Could be handled via a counter just like we have today for the provider stations so they are once again disabled when the train is full.

Yes, I have done that for some of my stations, it's a good safeguard.

The "multiprovider" is just an extension of that idea: you add a little circuit that turns off the filter inserters when the specified amount has been loaded. That's why we subtract "144" per wagon. We have to disable the inserters before the wagon is completely full, so there won't be any residual items in the inserter hands (that would lead to mixed wagons).

[doxsroxs]

How about adding a check to ensure inserters at provider stations are only active when a match has been made for delivery.
That way they wont start to load resources into any train arriving.
Could be handled via a counter just like we have today for the provider stations so they are once again disabled when the train is full.

Yes, I have done that for some of my stations, it's a good safeguard.

The "multiprovider" is just an extension of that idea: you add a little circuit that turns off the filter inserters when the specified amount has been loaded. That's why we subtract "144" per wagon. We have to disable the inserters before the wagon is completely full, so there won't be any residual items in the inserter hands (that would lead to mixed wagons).

Thats perfect! Sooo... when can I steal it?
Im really curious on how you solved the loading part. Im thinking separate buffers are needed to handle many materials, but I understand you have another idea?

It would help a lot for us if we could get this going since it would mean we could greatly reduce the number of stations in certain positions.
Currently we are at just under 100 stations and will need to expand that a lot according to current plans. Then again, when expanding quickly its important that the setup is simple.
Today we often opt for two single material requesters instead of one for two materials since its a finished blueprint and no extra time is needed for a buffer/sorting system.

Once I get a working blueprint manager Ill upload the current filtered stations with added combinators for stability as well, would like your feedback on them

[siggboy]

Im really curious on how you solved the loading part. Im thinking separate buffers are needed to handle many materials, but I understand you have another idea?

For a multiprovider you either need to split the buffer (for example, one side of the train for each product), or you load into requester chests with robots.

The actual problem that you have to solve is related to the inserters: you can not simply set the filters and stuff the wagons to the limit, because the inserter would have residual items in their hand afterwards. That's not good because it will create a mixed wagon on the next train.

The register at the provider does have the amount to be loaded, minus 12 for each inserter (= 144 per wagon if you have 12 inserters per wagon). We can load the resulting amount and the inserters will always be able to drop off their hand content.

This is the signal for the inserter filter: -2^31 - to_be_loaded + loaded_amount
It will become negative as soon as the desired amount has been loaded, and a negative value will disable the filter, and thus disable the inserter.

"to_be_loaded" is taken from the register, "loaded_amount" is taken from the train station, the rest is just an arrangement of a few combinators. SmartTrains has to be configured so it will write to the combinator at least every 10 ticks.

Today we often opt for two single material requesters instead of one for two materials since its a finished blueprint and no extra time is needed for a buffer/sorting system.

Multiproviders reduce the throughput per material and can cause problems if not set up correctly. Not good for two high volume materials, like for example a large iron and a large copper outpost.

They're good for combining lots of low volume goods.

Both multiproviders and requesters need robots if you want to handle more than 2 different materials at the buffer side, it's not really practical to divide the buffers manually.

[doxsroxs]

I was afraid that it had some downsides.

Im contemplating a different system for ore extraction.

Think about this scenario. Ore provider station is located with about 5-6 ore fields within comfortable range.
Instead of setting up multiple stations, one for each material. And later have to move them etc.
What if I just ram all ore into the station unsorted, change station output to a signal for mixed ore (can use anything really) and then have it sent to a central sorting facility that requests that same signal.
Central sorting facility would sort and then send the materials on once sorted.

+ Less ore stations and time spent moving/closing down stations. (Manual process to load last train today)
+ no need to sort ore in stations/ worry about overlapping ore fields
- will need to build a high throughput sorting facility (actually a + )

What do you think? I think it should be easy to modify a station to send a different signal.

[siggboy]

Yes, it would be very easy. The signals used at the provider and requester does not have to correspond to the items that are shipped. You can use anything you want to flag supply and demand.

[doxsroxs]

Yes, it would be very easy. The signals used at the provider and requester does not have to correspond to the items that are shipped. You can use anything you want to flag supply and demand.

Cool, I built one to test yesterday. Had some issues, not sure why though.
I used signal O, think you dont use it anywhere, but just to be sure its safe, is it used by you?

One issue was that a train arrived at my sorting station unannounced shortly after adding it to the schedule.
It was fully loaded so a provider or requester signal must have been wrong, or something I did caused a faulty station match.

Ill review the setup tomorrow and see if I can find any errors.
I did insert O as a new "material" in an empty spot in the priority constant combinator.
I have a few empty numbers here and there so just added it as priority 22 while the depot was running. (Out of about 130-140 materials)
I dont think this was the issue since its just priority, please let me know if Im wrong. I also think it happened only once.

I also noticed that the condition to leave when fully loaded on my mixed provider station does not work.
The train just sits there without leaving once fully loaded, did I miss something obvious?
To work around that I added an inactivity condition as well and that gets it going.

The basic concept seem to work really well though, by not having to care about ore type or mixture I can just blanket all ore patches withing range of a new station with miner blueprints and let it empty all of them.
Where as before Id use multiple stations, one for each material, or come back when the first patch was empty to connect the next one.

This is awesome, and the sorting station will never get full/stuck since I have my central ore buffers handling any excess

[doxsroxs]

But there's an even easier way: you can remove old stations, they will turn "red" in the schedules, but it will not change any of the numbers until you actually remove them and save the train line. So it's not a problem to have several "red" (deconstructed) outposts in the train schedules.

When you build a new outpost, you insert the new station directly above (or below) one of the "red" stations, then remove the "red" station and save the line.

That will also preserve the numbering but doesn't require any renaming shenanigans.

I have tested an even better idea for this. Adding and removing stations and setting rules in SmartTrains is as mentioned earlier a pain when you have a lot of stations.

Now I do as follows:
Old stations is renamed to Unused xx or whatever I want to call it.
It is then deleted and will reside in SmartTrains list marked in red.

When adding a new station, just rename it to Unused xx and it will automatically be in the schedule with correct settings.
Rename again to whatever you like and SmartTrains will catch that and update the scheduling automatically.
Epic win!

This is much easier since renaming is one click where as adding/removing to schedule is around 60-70 klicks or more due to clicking around in train schedule, ensuring its the latest, going through 13-14pages to add station, then same for rules etc.

[siggboy]

Good approach, I like it. You still have to do some manual numbering ("Unused 1", "Unused 2" etc.), but probably renaming twice is really safer than adding/removing.

[doxsroxs]

Thanks!

Have you made any load balancers for stations with mixed materials? I keep running into issues where it will not work unless I use a combinator per chest to sum the contents and present it as a single type of signal for comparison.

[siggboy]

You can load balance with mixed belts, but only if the belts are sorted (that means one belt lane for each material, or the lanes need to be count-perfect, for example 1 copper 1 iron 1 copper 1 iron ... on a lane). If the belts are completely unsorted the balancer can slow down or even stop entirely.

The reason is that you need to use filter inserters and then change the filter when an item is over the average count, but this only works if all the items are always available (two separate belt lanes).

As an example take a belt which is completely random, with two different types of ore. If theres a run of one type of ore the balancer will stop loading it and switch to the other ore, but it's not going to be available (backed up further behind on the belt), or it's very rare on the belt and some of the inserters can not grab it.

But it's possible that one can fix that by allowing a greater deviation from the average, I have stopped experimenting with it at some point. It's worth investigating.

Basically you use the trick of -2^31 for the filter value and then subtract the stack size and add the difference to the average... along those lines. That will change the filter signal when it becomes negative (underflow to -2^31).

So in general it doesn't work, if you just want to load everything you have to add it all up like you proposed and use the virtual signal (that combines all the items) for the comparison.

[doxsroxs]

Hi, yeah, its too bad they cannot sum all incoming signals in the inserters and keep messing with averages for each signal.

Anyway, here are my current stations designs, Ill get back shortly with the updated version for the mixed provider station and the central storage stations I use to enable easier mining.
Note that all these stations here are connected to the bus and power without any issues or signal cleaning necessary to get them going. They will just stay silent and then start working once in the Smart Trains schedule



First one from the top:
Normal tech single side provider station modified to be inert if it is not added to the Smart Trains train schedule (thus missing station number).
I did this by giving it a negative station number and nullifying the item count from the chests. It also outputs a red signal on the light if not in the Smart Trains schedule.
This might be overkill since a negative station number should never respond to the Depot signals, but I did it anyway since it didnt take any extra combinators and I prefer if there was less of a risk for it talking to the Depot. (honestly, I still dont know for sure how everything works and in detail what signals are sent)
This station should work in vanilla as well, but is currently set to only signal once over 48k resources (4x T2 bobs mod train cars worth of ore). You might want to lower that if you run vanilla or ship other stuff, like barrels.
This version has dual input lanes, just change to whatever you want there. You can also make it double sided, just dont forget to update the balancer to take into account that you are using 48 chests instead of 24.
I usually balance each side indivitually though since I found that to work better and its easier to feed the station that way, please let me know if you want to see it and Ill upload an example.

2016-09-11 Single side provider Tech1 MK7:

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Second from top is the same station with a few upgrades. Faster belts, inserters and better power poles. This makes it slightly more compact. Like the one above, any input belt configuration works.

2016-09-11 Single side provider Tech2 MK7:

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Third one from the top is a single side balanced and filtered requester station. It is inert if powered, will not enumerate strange signals and will output a red status light if connected to power without being in the Smart Trains schedule.
This one is also double secured in that I disabled the combinator that talks on the bus unless it has a proper station number from Smart Trains. I could probably have disabled the provider stations the same way, but to be honest they where easier to fool into believing they had no materials. This type of disabling was only necessary since it was harder to disable the station like I did for the providers.
This one should work in vanilla without changes.

2016-09-11 Single side requester Tech1 MK8:

Code: Select all

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Fourth one from the top is a balanced requester station just like the one above, however this one uses faster inserters, belts and improved power poles making it slightly better and more slimlined.
Like the one above it will not misbehave even if powered and connected to the bus without the correct setup in Smart Trains schedule.
The balanced output of these stations will also ensure they empty the chests in an even manner, to improve belt saturation both requester stations are using offset output inserters to fill both sides of the belt.
You will still have to use a balancer if usage is uneven, but this way output belts atleast have basic balance when coming out from the stations.

2016-09-11 Single side requester Tech2 MK8:

Code: Select all

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Please let me know if you have any issues of if they dont work as they should. I still dont quite trust Foreman in handling my blueprints properly, even if it seems to work now that I reinstalled the mod.
Also, I have not tested these as much as I probably should have, and to be honest, siggboy is the only one who can tell if these are having unintended consequences in his system or not.
Im just messing about hoping I dont break too much of his stuff

[doxsroxs]

Here is the mixed provider station, its a mess since balancing mixed chests and belts is a PITA.

To use it, add O signal as you would any nomal ore in the depot combinators for priority and wagon cargo capacity. (use same capacity as ores, might not work with items that have different stack sizes)
Then build normal requester station that requests O. Sort the incoming ores and send them along on normal provider stations. Easy and compact using robots (though I think robots are a bit like cheating).
Also remember to set full load OR 5 second inactivity as station rule for the mixed station when setting it up in Smart Trains, else the train will not leave the station.
I have used these with double digit belts as input with over 20k ore/minute throughput. Works like a charm and could probably be raised even more with more belts.
Just blanket all nearby ore spots in your favorite miner pattern and feed the station as much as you can, dont forget to outfit your miners with modules so your get some proper throughput and fill up the belts!

Note that you CAN experience issues due to rounding errors if you load a large number of ore types at the same time. I have looked into increasing precision in the balancer to counter that but not found a good way that uses only one combinator.
Current solution is that Im dividing by 20 instead of 24 chests when comparing chest contents to the average chest. It will not balance perfectly, but it will be good enough to keep the station going without issues.

If the balance loader stops on you, lower the figure on the two combinators to -18 or even lower to ensure it starts up again.
After all, the goal is to ensure even loading of train.



2016-09-11 Balanced mixed provider station Tech2 MK4:

Code: Select all

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[doxsroxs]

A small note, the mixed station blueprint above is actually bad since if care is not taken it can get unbalanced if one of the four inputs run dry.
I only used that belt combination since I have equal ore fields coming in from all directions.
Usually Id recommend balancing everything and then feeding from one set of 8 (or how many/few you need) tracks.

[siggboy]

Here's my design for a multiprovider.

It is a regular provider station with an additional circuit that sets the filter on the inserters so they will only load the item type which is currently requested from this provider. This is all done by the circuit next to the substation, if you remove this circuit it's simply a regular provider. The normal provider functionality is unchanged.

The inserter filter is cleared when the requested amount has been loaded. The current amount is read from the wagons (it takes the input from the train station combinator), and SmartTrains needs to be configured so it will write to this combinator every 10 ticks (or faster). I think the default value is every 60 ticks, which is too slow. The CPU impact should be negligible.

It's also necessary to subtract 12 items per inserter per wagon (i.e. 144 if you use 12 inserters per wagon, the maximum amount). This can be done at the depot, where the wagon count is set (it's an arithmetic combinator that subtracts, right next to the combinator that sets the wagon count). This assumes max research, i.e. the inserter stack size being "12".

If you do not set this "-144" value in the depot, the circuit will not disable the filter inserters in time, and they will hit the wagon capacity -- ending up with residual items in some of the inserter hands. The next train will then pick up these residual items, and it can lead to mixed wagons. This is BAD. Do not forget to set this safety threshold (-144) in the depot if you use this multiprovider.

The safety threshold has no effect on regular providers or if you try to load less than the full wagon capacity. The requesters will underestimate incoming deliveries, which is perfectly safe and has practically no negative effect.

You have to make sure that each chest contains enough items so the requested amount can actually be loaded, and that the chests are balanced.

If you extend this design for longer trains, do not forget to connect all chests, wire all the additional inserters and make sure that all inserters have the same settings!

Code: Select all

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(This blueprint avoids bogus values in the register if the station is not in the schedule yet, that is, while the station number is still unset; that's a clean-up fix which has nothing to do with the multiprovider feature, that is all implemented by the circuit next to the substation.)

[doxsroxs]

Really nice! I think our stations for multiple materials have different purposes & complement each other well.
Would really appreciate if you have the time to look at my contraptions, Im sure they can be improved
They seem to work well right now and all our new stations are using these blueprints.

Im especially curious on how effective my attempts at disabling the stations are and if I missed anything. Maybe some of my modifications are redundant, and can be simplified. I can give you a better description on how I did and why if you want to instead of reverse engineering them.

Im also going to post an updated version of the central storage design as soon as I have the time to write about it.

Thanks again for an awesome system, since your latest version of the Depot I think it is working really well!
My next project after this is probably going to be a look at adding filters to the requester stations as we discussed earlier, would be nice to get that final part in place to eliminate loading the wrong materials.

[Lezreth]

Getting this train controller to work has been quite the adventure. I finally succeeded after playing with the test save on and off over the past few months in between mod testing. Now I have been trying to make the red network wireless with the assistance of the FLAN mod. I tried capturing the signals in the demo save with CircuitLogger mod. When I analyzed the log and set the signals it captured in FLAN's towers, it didn't work. The light at the depot stayed yellow and the Q signal kept cycling. Seeing as the CircuitLogger mod is for Factorio version 0.13 and I'm using 0.14 (just edited the info.json file to make Factorio recognize it as valid) CircuitLogger might be missing something to get all the signals. (or I'm doing something wrong)

Could someone please give me a list of the signals that are sent between the stations? Having wireless antennas would make network management a little easier.