Suggestion about a water pump.

[<NO_NAME>]

This is incredible how much this forum needs a method of voting. Now, the only way to support an idea is to create a new post. I basically agree with everyone here besides ssilk. (Sorry.)

Now get to the point. I would just note that new players can choose an "Easy mode" by turning off aggression of unprovoked natives. I, for example, knew the defense can be too hard for me at the moment. The last tutorial mission shown it to me clearly. I have played my first run in the easy mode and when I was sure that I know game mechanics well enough, I started a new game with normal settings. In situation when new players have possibility to familiarize themselves to the game at their own pace, is it really necessary to smooth the way for them so much?

[meganothing]

I had the misconception that cold water in a steam engine would still produce a minimum of power. In that case even without any coal or wood you could restart a steam engine setup if that was powering its own coal mining. But I tried it yesterday, and without any boiler no energy is produced at all. Maybe steam engines did produce energy from coal water in some earlier version of factorio (because of deadlock), but definitely not in 0.14

But in that case there is no deadlock that isn't already there. You still need at least one wood/coal/solid fuel inserted by hand to restart it, with an energy dependant water pump you need at least two, or in the case of a strict solid fuel setup you need three.

So I'm pretty sure there is no deadlock (that isn't already there) which is hinted at in the wiki about the offshore pump: "This is because, otherwise the game might fall into a serious deadlock: No coal, no electricity, no water...". I tried to find an explanation in the wiki or in this forum without success. If someone can explain, please do.

Just to be clear, my opinion on the "water pump needs electricity" issue is "I don't care much either way" but I want to find out if the deadlock is there or not.

[ssilk]

Please read before you decide (you can change also your opinion):

1 and 3:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33385 Suggestion about a water pump.
- The disussion-thread that triggered this poll.

2 and 4:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21921 Poll: Should belts use energy (and Offshore Pumps etc...)
- Where the community polled in my opinion about the general topic of power usage for entites, that currently don't use power.
(it's also mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=24061 New Types of Belts (And why they are NOT a Good Idea!) )
Deeper search around the offshore pump reveals astonishing-wise those threads:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27105 Conveyor Belts should require energy to function
Which resulted into:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21058 Conveyor belts optional using electricity

5:
I think this is the most important, cause that suggestion comes from a developer:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2058&p=15192#p15128

Yeah, pump running "for free" is a bit strange. We might do something about this. Maybe have it run on electricity but also put a small burner inside for the kickstarting.
The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.

6: Is from these ideas:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5207&hilit=pump Early Power.
- where they suggested some kind of hand-pump
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21982 Concept: Engine/Generator Modules for Machines
- where they suggested motors as modules.

[aubergine18]

From modder perspective, having a pump that could take either coal or electricity to make it work would provide some interesting modding opportunities (it would allow us to make any building run on multiple fuel forms). But please also allow it to run without any power whatsoever (as there are places where mods will use offshore pumps as a sub-component of their main building and don't want to have to keep it stocked with magic coal/electricity).

[ssilk]

First:
I created a poll: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33532

Second:
I read through the whole thread and found my post:

Did you read the linked posts. I'm nearly sure that all has already been suggested.

Hm. And where are the mentioned links? No links? Anywhere?
Obviously I thought I wrote a post with links into this discussion (which explained some points) and wondered why that was ignored. But I didn't. Perhaps it was a server hickup, I think I can remember that we had last week a server restart at that time...


Shit happens, so I did a complete search about the whole subject. Here is the result.

The base of all the confusion is this (missing) post:
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=21921 Poll: Should belts use energy (and Offshore Pumps etc...)
Where the community polled in my opinion about the general topic of power usage for entites, that currently don't use power.
(it's also mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=24061 New Types of Belts (And why they are NOT a Good Idea!) )

Deeper search around the offshore pump reveals those threads:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27105 Conveyor Belts should require energy to function
Which resulted into:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21058 Conveyor belts optional using electricity

So belts are more or less similar to the offshore pump, cause they also don't use energy. But there are of course other voices:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5207&hilit=pump Early Power.
- where they suggested some kind of hand-pump
or
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21982 Concept: Engine/Generator Modules for Machines
- where they suggested motors as modules.

But I think the most important post is this one:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2058&p=15192#p15128
Where slpwnd says

Yeah, pump running "for free" is a bit strange. We might do something about this. Maybe have it run on electricity but also put a small burner inside for the kickstarting.
The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.

So I changed my mind now: This subject is more different to the belts, than I thought and there is nothing, which says that any poll here is forever. So - as already mentioned - I made a poll.


Third:

@ <NO_NAME>: I forbid polls in this suggestion board, cause they where misused. "Hey I have this cool new idea: Bridges! Do you like my cool idea of bridges? * yes * no...". OK, I exaggerate a bit. But such things are useless...

@ meganothing: Well, I cannot prove it. The quoted wiki article is based on situations, where I really had no coal anymore. Assume mid-game, you need perhaps 200 megawatts and you are suddenly out of power, cause you didn't realize how fast the coal was burned in that phase. The following 15 minutes is either pure adrenaline-fun or a total horror. I describe the horror: The biters come and eat your factory and you can't do anything, but restart. If you realize that too late you don't have a save and all you can to is quit: You lost the whole factory. I'm really, really a frust-accustomed player, but at that point you invested maybe 10 or 20 hours into your factory. That was too much - even for me.
Coming from this situation I think I can imagine how much more difficult this situation is, if the pump needs also electric power and how much more likely this situation will become and I really want to avoid that for other players.

[ssilk]

Indeed, that would be really interesting and it should not only work for the offshore pump, but for every assembler, refinery etc.
(I think to a burner as a module in the module-slots).
And that goes conform with ideas around different energy usage per item or recipes with different energy usage or ... a dozen of ideas around energy, pollution, speed, reliability etc.

[bobucles]

If you need water to make energy, and pumps need energy to make water, then you have a problem!

The main question here is what "tech 0" energy will be. Should there be a burner engine that doesn't use water? Should the player have some kind of manual generator or some kind of manual crank pump? Keep in mind that should your system shut down, you need to use this tech 0 energy source to start the pumps to start the steam to start it up again. This will remain a problem until solar power lets your factory restart with the sunrise.

[ssilk]

About that's what also written in the other poll about belts.

[Alice3173]

The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.

This could potentially be offset a bit by simply adding a power module that needs to be attached to each unique conveyor network that runs off a small amount of electricity or coal. Though if power requirements are added to a lot of things such as the conveyors and offshore pumps then the game would really need the addition of better power sources for the mid to late game. (Even more than it already does.)

[aubergine18]

The coveyor belts are moving "for free" because it is a very elemental building block in the game and we reckoned that it would be annoying to build electric poles everywhere.

This could potentially be offset a bit by simply adding a power module that needs to be attached to each unique conveyor network that runs off a small amount of electricity or coal. Though if power requirements are added to a lot of things such as the conveyors and offshore pumps then the game would really need the addition of better power sources for the mid to late game. (Even more than it already does.)

+1 for powered belts. To avoid it being cumbersome for players, maybe a specific "Belt driver" entity could be added: only one is required per network of belt entities. Place the driver next to an existing belt, and power the driver. Belts default to disabled. When belt driver receives or loses power, it tells adjacent belts that they are powered or not powered, thus enabling or disabling them. Each of those belts then tells their adjacent belts to be same enable/disable state. This way no extra work is required per tick, it's only when the belt driver entity changes powered state that any updates happen to belts. IIRC all entities, including belts, have an enabled/disabled state already, so in theory this wouldn't be too much pain to implement. That being said, what if player adds two belt drivers to two ends of a belt? If one is powered and the other is not, it could require extra processing when state changes because only one needs power for entire belt network. Gameplay comes first though - if it proves too cumbersome for player (having to make and place all the belt drives) then it should not be done. The belt driver could be a somewhat magical device, in that it could power several rows of belts and for any length.

[quadrox]

I have a real hard time with this one.

On the one hand, yes, this really does bug me a lot. Everytime I build a pump it feels a bit like cheating.

The extra complication of having to deliver power to the pumpt would not bother me one bit. What would bother me is that I wouldn't be able to stop thinking about all the other things that work by magic or are unrealistic in some way (most important: belts) and would I want them fixed too? I think not.

So what's the solution? I have no clue.

My vote is probably "I could accept pumps requiring power - even belts probably - but I won't ask for it". This option doesn't really exist thought

[Koub]

I'm not fond of "realism at all costs". I mean if I want realism, I have IRL, that's realistic (and not fun) enough for me. There are tons of things that are not realistic in the game that I find more shocking than "magic" driven offshore pumps, belts, train signals, ... , and there are many areas of the game I'd like to see improved before that small little thing.

[mexmer]

thanks for the poll

tho' i'm not sure, if slaping hand/coal powered pump under one option is best.
people might not vote for it, because manual pumping might seem to be hassle.

i still voted for that, since it's closes option to what i suggested.

i think it was mistake to mention belts here tho' because lot of people will be distracted by belts, and forget about pump.

i just copypaste sum of changes for pump, i posted in linked topic

changes

1) offshore pump should be coal powered (eg. burner offshore pump) - this fits startgame tech, and player kit - and doesn't add any dificulties, except need to acount for it, when making coal line for boilers - expanding logistic problem
2) offshore pump layout will change to 2x1 - because hose still needs to be in water - like is now, but burner needs to be on land for inserter access
3) offshore pump research - which will give you electricity powered offshore pump - for feeding other stuff with water in mid/late (oil refinery, chemical furnace, and so on)

@bobucles - hot air powered pump exists and i'm talking industry level, not toy for kits. there are places, where you can't use heated liquids (or steam)

[bobingabout]

Well... you NEED the pump to get power, so having it require power is a tricky solution.

From the modder perspective, I say that every entity that does something should have options to be electric powered, burner powered, Grid powered if it can have a grid, or not require power at all. Plus custom power, so you can make it run on oil as an example. That would open up a lot more modding possibilities.

For a base game solution, if you want it to need power, all I can really think is that you have 2 of them. a basic one (Say... provides a tenth the current one) that requires either no power, or burner power, and an advanced one (on par with the current one) that requires electricity.

[Deadly-Bagel]

Thinking this through...

An electric pump is a bad idea to use for steam engines. With no power you can't power the pump to make power. So you'd have to have backup coal pumps but without electricity you can't use small pumps to manage the flow of water, therefore you'd only ever use coal pumps making the electric variety pretty much redundant.

However you WOULD want an electric pump to supply your oil processing because generally the closest coal is for making plastic which often isn't near your water supply. So either you have a type of item that most players only ever build one of, or you force them to supply coal to an entity with a fixed location that could be quite a way away from anything, but that won't even be using much of it. In most cases you could probably cut the source of coal and the pump would run for hours just on what's on the belt, it's overkill.

All this just to make the game a little more "realistic"? This is probably one of the more minor offences of the game, and "fixing" it would just make it a pain for everyone without adding anything to the gameplay.

[ssilk]

i think it was mistake to mention belts here tho' because lot of people will be distracted by belts, and forget about pump.

That is a valid opinion: you can just fix the pump and that's it.
But - believe me or not - that is not how Factorio devs work. They search always how a change can be done so that it has maximum effects vs. minimum costs. As bobcules said: a change of the abilities of the pump could be easily added to other devices, mainly the assembler. More or less my opinion.
And with that we suddenly have a mass of opportunities for modding.

[OdinYggd]

It is absolutely trivial to make the power stations self-restarting through the use of the power switch and a bit of cleverness.

Situate things so that the steam engine output is uncoupled from the grid if an accumulator on the steam engine side goes under 20% or so power. This keeps a reserve of energy to operate things like stokers and water pumps, although it will gradually deplete to idle power draw it isn't a big deal to include enough accumulators to give yourself plenty of working time.

Then for a standard 1:14:10 boiler and engine arrangement, the last stoker inserter in the row is a burner type. Like so even in a situation where the station is completely in the dark, once fuel is provided one boiler will come back online automatically, getting the engine shafts turning and sending power to the other inserters- which also pick up fuel so their boilers ignite as well. Pretty soon the whole plant is back up to full power and the disconnect closes again to revive the rest of the factory.

Adding a need to do the same sort of jumpstarting for the water pump wouldn't be that big of an obstacle for restarting since you would already have everything you need. It would however make the initial startup a bit harder to accomplish, and some achievements like lazy bastard would end up with additional crafting steps.

This is incredible how much this forum needs a method of voting. Now, the only way to support an idea is to create a new post. I basically agree with everyone here besides ssilk. (Sorry.)

I have to disagree with you on this point as well. More than a few beloved indie games have ended up with a horrendous conglomerate of conflicting game mechanics and mismatched feel to the gameplay as a result of the community repeatedly raising their voices to demand certain things be added instead of allowing the devs to express their vision while the player uses mods to tailor it to their liking.

There's also the issue of people producing a half-formed idea without putting any thought into how to implement it or what it would do for the game experience, then tacking a poll to it and practically outsourcing how to form that concept into something usable.

[bobucles]

It IS possible to survive without belts until electricity shows up. Most of early game can be done by running burner machines directly into other burner machines with no belts involved.

It IS possible to have a system that automatically reboots under most situations using burner inserters and buffer chests.

Will it be FUN? I dunno. It's just a different kind of puzzle I guess.

I am of the personal opinion that the medium and high speed belts should use energy to work their high speed. Without energy they could stall or reduce to basic speed levels.

[mexmer]

It IS possible to survive without belts until electricity shows up. Most of early game can be done by running burner machines directly into other burner machines with no belts involved.

It IS possible to have a system that automatically reboots under most situations using burner inserters and buffer chests.

Will it be FUN? I dunno. It's just a different kind of puzzle I guess.

I am of the personal opinion that the medium and high speed belts should use energy to work their high speed. Without energy they could stall or reduce to basic speed levels.

that interesting idea, regarding belts, although i really want to put belt discussion somewhere else.

i always though that belts have some kind of mechanical connection to whatever structure they transfer from/to - so that's their source of moving force (in most cases it's inserters, or drills), but express belts indeed might have more requirements.
mind also current belts doesn't have wiring for electricity. so how you will "power" them anyways, without external unit? anyway ... it's different theme for discussion.

[Maharin]

Thought: If connected items of a network were automatically considered electrically connected then you'd only need power poles to join two disconnected networks. This would cut down on the arrangement of messy poles all over the place.

So... for belts this means you'd only need one electrical connection at either end or have them connected to another device that is connected to the electrical network. The same could be said for pumps or any other device in the network that connects to other devices. I'm not sure if pipes should be included in this, though.

The problem then, from my perspective, is how to jump start the whole system as was already noted. Adding a "connectable" hand crank or other electrical producer fed by something other than electricity would add another solution to the problem. Currently, I just drop a piece of coal into one of the burners in my system to get things going (or several if needed). It's clunky, but workable. If I'm past my need of water to generate electricity then I wait until morning and attempt to fix the problem so it doesn't happen again.

Another thought... what about adding module support to the pumps and add a "battery module" that gives them the ability to jump start themselves and then recharge their battery for later downtime? Or give them an initial boost like the burner inserter has that needs to be replenished?