Shields vrs. armor hit points

[Frightning]

So I noticed playing today in 0.13.20-0 that armor hitpoints are protected by any shields you have in them. Since they also provide resistances to the shield, the result is that, as long as you avoid taking health damage, your armor is never worn and will last forever. This stands in stark contrast to what happens with the weakest two types of armor, Iron Armor and Heavy Armor, which both always take damage (which I believe is equal to the amount of damage mitigated by said armor, but I am not certain of this). Given that armor resists now apply to damage taken to shields (a welcome change for improving effectiveness of shields in late game, which should be kept imo), I think it's reasonable that damage mitigated by the armor should still apply to the armor just as it does when the armor is unshielded, they still have plenty enough hitpoints (10,000 for Basic Modular Armor, 15,000 for Power Armor, 20,000 for Power Armor Mk2) to last a long while (longer than lower tier armors at least).

[Klonan]

I think its fair and makes sense that shield damage doesn't affect armor durability,

Besides, what would it add to the gameplay?

[Frightning]

I think its fair and makes sense that shield damage doesn't affect armor durability,

Besides, what would it add to the gameplay?

Actually needing to replace your armor once in awhile? As it stands now, you can use a single piece of power armor for hundreds of hours, killing many hundreds of biter bases and it'll still be in near perfect condition. It makes sense that armor would be protected by the shield, but that same argument would imply that armor resistances wouldn't affect damage to shields (as it was in the past) but this was changed for gameplay reasons. If our logic is that armor actually mitigates damage to shields (for whatever reason), then it stands to reason that the armor is absorbing some of the incoming damage before it even hits the shield (again, idk the reason), but given that armor mitigates damage to shields, it then makes sense that the armor would take damage before shields.

[Ranakastrasz]

The bigger issue is what happens if your armor breaks, do you lose all those expensive modules Equipment?

[bobingabout]

Better solution:
Remove the bonus of armor resistances to the shield... Add a resistances section to the shield itself.

This would also allow us to specify a different set of resistances between shields. So you could have better resistances on a shield MK2 than the original.

And from a modding perspective, possibly damage specialisation shields. EG, you could have a shield that completely removes impact damage.


But then how do you handle multiple shields in the suit of different resistances?

[Ranakastrasz]

Gratuitous Space battles. Which admitteldy had a quirky modular system itsself. I think it used the highest resistance of the active shields, and a random shield took damage. However, when a shield's health ran out, it shut down, so it couldn't rechage. Also resistances worked differently in that game.



Average the resistances. Use the highest. Use a random one. Use the first one placed (Currently how the damage to shield is chosen) Use the one with the highest percent of shield left. Use the one closest to the top left.


around 9000 difference methods of chosing.

[bobingabout]

using the highest does make sense... but then if the player is given an option for say... a shield that makes you immune to kinetic damage, well, just put one of those in, then fill your armor with standard high capacity shields, and you have a high shield amount, plus kinetic immunity. and so on.

but is that a good or bad thing?

[bobucles]

Should shields have a hardness rating at all? They're using raw energy and sci fi jumbo to deflect things. If something hits a shield and the shield stops it, wouldn't the shield have used energy?

I think the defense curve does get a little insane. The player goes from 100HP and rusty chainmail to having 100HP and 2000 recharging shields of enchanted god plate. Perhaps the death curve could be toned down a bit?

Flattening the curve too hard can make base defenses invincible. But anti-player weapons can be distinguished from anti-base weapons by using clever mechanics. For example a dumb fire weapon is easily avoided, but remains a threat to a structure that can't evade. AoE attacks and glaive/chain-lightning mean nothing against a single target, but can crumble dense walls and clusters with ease.

[Ranakastrasz]

Well, it kinda depends. Especially on gameplay vs "Realism"

If you have a solid layer of "Totally not magic" between you and the biter trying to kill you, what exactly happens when it bites it.

Well, the biters are able to tear through steel with their teeth, so they aren't slouches in force applied.
The bigger ones are apply more force as well.

How does the shield defend you exactly? When it takes damage, it uses up energy in it's buffer, so it is an active system. No upkeep, so it probably isn't conjuring a layer of material and locking it in place around you, but instead is applying some kind of force to whatever tries to touch you. Kinetic Barriers from Mass effect spring to mind.


So, you could argue that it just uses energy proportional to the damage taken, which is no resistance.

However, shields tend to not interact with Acid normally. Generally shields don't care much about heat or chemical reactions, either ignoring them and letting them through or blocking them entirely. Or letting some heat through. Etc

So, make acid and fire damage be less effective might make sense.

(If we added EMP for PVP stuff. Minecraft's Industrialcraft, which this game is heavily influenced by, did that)
EMP weapons tend to deal extra damage to shield, by draining the capaciter.

So make EMp deal more damage.



Anyhow, I would be happy to have shields have no armor, or have armor based on the strongest shield module. The T1 shield would give 2 Physical resistance, and the T2 would give 4, or something like that. Less than the armor itself would give, but applied to the shield. Or, just drop the shield armor stuff. If you need more resistance, add more shield modules, but scratch damage will take it down. Then, only heavy attacks can get through the armor/hull underneith.

[InsaneFox]

Better solution:
Remove the bonus of armor resistances to the shield... Add a resistances section to the shield itself.

This would also allow us to specify a different set of resistances between shields. So you could have better resistances on a shield MK2 than the original.

And from a modding perspective, possibly damage specialisation shields. EG, you could have a shield that completely removes impact damage.


But then how do you handle multiple shields in the suit of different resistances?

From my experience, shield hitpoints are layered in such a way that damage must eat through the top shield before it can damage the bottom shield. Once the top shield has its hitpoints depleted, the bottom shield will start to take damage. And shields also recover hitpoints independently of one another. I'm not sure if this would be something simple to mod though, since giving each shield its own resistances that only apply to its own hitpoints will leave you with constantly regenerating layers that each have their own resistances. Explosive damage that tears through fire-proof shield on top would do little to nothing to an explosive proof shield under with whatever damage overflow occured. And since shields are constantly, the fire-proof shield would still negate any fire damage that occured to it since it was on the top layer, despite having very few hitpoints.

If you plan on doing something like this, you might have to change the way shields work to have specialized shields that don't result in nigh-invulnerability when used together.

Then again... with stock shields we can already tank freight trains to our faces.

[Deadly-Bagel]

I don't see why, in the endgame with tons of resources poured into your armour, you shouldn't be practically invincible. This game isn't about the combat, it's about the production, automation and logistics.

It's like saying the hacking mini game in Deus Ex: Human Revolution becomes too trivial with upgrades. Yeah, so? I'm not there to push buttons on a virtual screen (screenception?), I'm there to punch bad guys.