Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

[muaddib176]

1) Starting Area is generated by game host.
2) Starting area is fed into an array one square at a time.
3) Starting resources are the only parts of the array that are remembered.
4) Array resources are copied over each applicable square in each Players Starting Area, using the player as a reference point.


That way the terrain would be random causing natural bottlenecks and features.... but the resources in the starting area would be identical, even distance between resources which players a HUGE factor in the beginner base.
You wouldn't have to alter your terrain generation engine, just add another step before players can play.

[Drury]

Now about pvp:
1) I think that actually less than 4 players/teams/etc takes away the possibility for "tactical depth" - no way of temporary alliances, finishing off "common" enemy and stuff of this kind.

People aren't going to respect that, especially when there are more people per team. I've played RTS FFAs, they're a clusterfuck and in the end the winner is generally the one person that everyone forgot about and had the luxury of having nobody attack them. That's barely fair.

So?

Chaos is fun, fair is oftentimes repetitive and boring.

Mix it up a little. You should care a little less about who wins, and a little more about how much fun the game was.

You can have both order and fun.

I've been on plenty of servers of various games where admins thought rules were arbitrary, it tends to descend into borderline unplayable absurdity. Not bad for a quick goof, but definitely not something you want to have as a game's official gamemode.

[Antaios]

You can have both order and fun.

I've been on plenty of servers of various games where admins thought rules were arbitrary, it tends to descend into borderline unplayable absurdity. Not bad for a quick goof, but definitely not something you want to have as a game's official gamemode.

We're not talking about having no rules, or rules formed on a whim. Just having a few extra teams to mix things up, rather than the tired old 1v1 because its easy to 'balance' for competition play.
In my experience, game modes like that always result in everyone who plays them ending up way too serious. Not my cuppa tea for general play, too damn exhausting.

Anyway, there's no reason why there can't be more than one 'official game mode', super balanced competition 2-team matches, and more casual chaotic multi-team matches, that's what most games do anyway, isn't it.



... I couldn't resist:

it tends to descend into borderline unplayable absurdity

Well, this is Factorio, isn't it?

[hitzu]

Maybe making the science another way around? Like labs would grab every scence pack they can and transform them into 6 "healthbars" of science which would be then spent by players on new technologies if there is enough amount of science. This way players can hoard any amount of science which would be a neverending resource sink unless they learn how to manage perfect ratios with some circuit magic.

As for map generation for PvP scenario, I would propose to look into a kaleidoscope.

[psychomuffin]

I love the idea of a research revamp. But I don't like the idea of engines, pump jacks, assembly machines, and 30 copper! being used.

Can we still use alien artifacts? Perhaps not directly for purple, but as an ingredient, like instead of the 30 copper? If running short of alien artifacts is a concern, maybe adopt Bobs small artifacts from bases and bitters/spitters. I liked that this forced the player to engage the enemy. I liked how Bob had other colors for other research and other materials.

Alternate ideas for some of these more unusual parts: 4x red and 4x green instead of 30x copper wire? Maybe explosives instead of machine guns? Maybe solid fuel can be used for research (if it doesn't unbalance too much)?

Other possible ingredients: lamps, solar panels, (I still liked plastic, steel, and other inserters), red belts, walls, elec poles, barrels. I hope you adopt more from Bob, because there are so many items there!

Just some thoughts. I know you will playtest, and take in lots of feedback, and continue to make this great. Thanks!

[ssilk]

I like the new ideas, but (risking the majority will hate me) how about liquid science? This would sure add some interesting new logistics problems.

I really would like something like that for the science, that needs alien eggs.

[AntiElitz]

I like the new ideas, but (risking the majority will hate me) how about liquid science? This would sure add some interesting new logistics problems.

I really would like something like that for the science, that needs alien eggs.

The Problem is the introduction of infinite research here: while you can automate everything you can not do so with alien artifacts and therefore run into trouble with super late game tech. there are 2 posssible fixes for that still:
1. You can build an "alien farm" that automated it for you
2. Alien artifacts are a component of an science reciept that has another, more expensive alternate raciept, that you can actually automate well.

However I likes alien artifacts being part of a science reciept as well, because is forced you to fight the aliens at some point, which forced you to build PowerArmor mk2.

[ledow]

Science packs are unbalanced, as stated. I often get bored between green and blue with all the setup required to continue. And blue always suffers, in my setups. Purple - no problem, just get to the point you can take out a nest and you're forever covered.

I posited an idea on the Steam forums to do with water-use. There's no reason that the water can't have water-aliens, and water-buildings, and water-vehicles (rather than just big gaps of nothing but fish). As such, I suggested that the alien tech should include a variety of types - eggs from nests, ones from sea-creatures, etc. That would make purple much harder to collect en-masse but keep the "if you're powerful enough to take out a nest, you can get it" element.

But blue science is pretty far right of where it should be, and I'd say purple is actually below it.

I trust your fixes. I'm just not sure about even more needed types rather than just different sources or different methods. For instance, a military blue could work quicker than a normal blue on military projects but operate as a normal blue if you need it to, and so on. Or a water-alien-egg purple could work in place of a land-alien-egg the same way, but work more efficiently if you have a mixture.

But, as you can tell, I'm more interested in making use of the water than which way the science packs actually land...

Get the fluids going... I need something new!

[TheVeteraNoob]

I always thought it was a little weird how one cannot control enemy entities. I think it would be a much more interesting challenge if somebody could change the recipes of machines or the routes of trains.
Basically the only difference between the two teams in my eyes should be who the turrets target. Thus creating a much trollier multiplayer.

[ssilk]

First:
Some base for further discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=14645 Research-queue and -progress Visualizaton / Research-Overhauls
--> Look for the overhauls

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=13022 World Generation / Map Generator / Game Modes / Scenarios / Biomes
--> A world generator generates a lot of "worlds" (surfaces) at once and mixes the right/true surfaces in. Like Photoshop blends in different layers.
The result is then very random for unspecified properties of the generated surface (like how much trees does a forest have?), but very defined for specified properties (like there must be a forest with minimum 100 trees!)
That would work also for creating multiplayer-maps.

[In my opinion Factorio doesn't need to generate 100% symmetric maps. Why? The distances are 50-100 times larger, than in "normal/comparable" games. Small differences in one part of the map is just balanced out by distance. Which doesn't mean, that we don't should have such 100% symmetric maps, but they are not a prerequisite of fair games.]

We need to think also that devs promised nuclear energy for 0.15: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=31440 Ideas Around Energy Production: Solar, Wind, Water, Nuclear, Fusion ...

And changes to the configuration is also currently in progress (see viewtopic.php?f=34&t=32890 [0.15] Mod setting/config interface - give your input):
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=16592 Game Setup, Game Configuration, Init Screen, Mod-Config

So, I think the changes here cannot be seen without the others.



Second:

I like the new ideas, but (risking the majority will hate me) how about liquid science? This would sure add some interesting new logistics problems.

I really would like something like that for the science, that needs alien eggs.

while you can automate everything you can not do so with alien artifacts

Yes, currently this is the case. But I think to some kind of self-replicating factory-moloch, that slowly crawls over the fields, fights and digs the eggs.

See this for example: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32982 A Blueprint Printer - creating multi-purpose factories in a different way
Or this in general: viewtopic.php?f=80&t=27054 Self Replicating (e. g. with Blueprints)

And on the other hand: Who says you need that much alien eggs to make some kind o alien-science-fluid?

there are 2 posssible fixes for that still:
1. You can build an "alien farm" that automated it for you
2. Alien artifacts are a component of an science reciept that has another, more expensive alternate raciept, that you can actually automate well.

Well, that's very valid ideas. But the above with self-replicating is also a possibility.

Despite from that: I don't believe that it is really the right way to improve mass-destruction in such extremes. It should be possible to win the game peacefully. Seeing it like so makes your ideas much more possible, than self-replicating.

But there is also a lot of improvement possible between the lines, like:

1. Fight native villages, kill all
We need simpler/faster ways to do it. Good (and always repeating) Ideas that are around are
- Smarter robots. (I dunno, if I like that, it makes all too easy)
- Kind of (train)-artillery. (I underline train-artillery, cause any other type has the supply-problem, that is with my current experience complex to solve)
- Automtic lasers in orbit. (Really nice. )

2. Collect eggs
- Simply a specialized very-long-range robot-type. (could be used also as pioneer for exploring, or as cleaning robot)
- Some kind of magic inventory, that magnetically ties the eggs to the player (or vehicle... there are already some mods around)
- Some kind of vehicle, that collects them with far range.

3. Supply eggs
- When the player returns to base the eggs in his inventory should be automatically catched up by the robots. This is currenly only partially possible: Currently you enter ANY logistic network and the eggs are removed from inventory: Not was wanted.

However I likes alien artifacts being part of a science reciept as well, because is forced you to fight the aliens at some point, which forced you to build PowerArmor mk2.

For me the building up of your military strength is just another type of growing your factory.

[Andrzejef]

So?

Chaos is fun, fair is oftentimes repetitive and boring.

Mix it up a little. You should care a little less about who wins, and a little more about how much fun the game was.

You can have both order and fun.

I've been on plenty of servers of various games where admins thought rules were arbitrary, it tends to descend into borderline unplayable absurdity. Not bad for a quick goof, but definitely not something you want to have as a game's official gamemode.

Well, it might sound strange - especially that you have conflicting views on the matter - but I think you both are right. Factorio as such, is not really suitable for quick skirmishes. However, if each "group" started with some basic factory premade, and some basic eq - that could find a nice balance between orderly gameplay and chaotic stir, I think. That way, you wouldn't have to focus so hard on providing yourself means to survive from the very begining, and you could turn your attention to more malevolent activities.
But as I said earlier, it all depends on an actual map size, and players per group

[PunkSkeleton]

I'm excited about PvP but my extensive experience in StarCraft tells me that:
1. You need a standard mode of 1 team vs 1 team. With standard team sizes (but currently I would not go for more than 3v3 due to the fact that it is hard to find many players). Free for all might seem fun but the reality is that it's rarely played in RTS games. I don't say there should be no option for custom modes - if someone wants to play FFA then it's OK. But from my experience that would be a minority.
2. You don't want infinite map. You want quite the opposite - small map so there is competition for resources and contact between the teams. The games should be quick and interesting.
3. You want the map to be known at the start (revealed but with fog of war). Even if it's always the same map then having it revealed was a huge accessibility improvement in SC2 compared to SC.
4. The map should be symmetrical. Two identical islands (randomly generated at the start of each game but mirrored for both teams) with small choke point between them are simple solution. Maybe even make it 4 islands so the team can expand into another. Worms might be present to discourage early rushing (or just make it so that the silo is invincible for the first 15 minutes).

[ketil]

I love the idea of new science recipes. I trust you will find the right balance for it.

[walterwoj]

The New Liquid Wagon looks great! However the engineering/physics of the look are off. The wagon has 3 tanks with filler ports at the top and a large pipe at the side of each tank running between them ( about half way up the tank). Then the two outer tanks have pipes (2x ?, on both sides?, why? only one per tank is needed to prevent vapor lock. ) going to the filler ports. Assuming the filling ports have tubes inside the tank that run all the way down, the this means the filling station must connect to every tank individually to drain the tanks, otherwise only the connected tank would be completely emptied and the other two tanks would only be drained to the bottom level of the connector pipes. Also the center tank would become vapor locked when one of the other tanks are filled because it does not have the extra pipe connected to the filler port. While the design is cool, it is overly complicated. You only need two connector pipes running from tank to tank. A large one at the very bottom of the tank (for complete drainage of all 3 tanks) and a small one at the very top for air pressure equalization (to prevent vapor lock when filling or draining). All the extra pipes a superfluous (LOL, Get it?), You can keep the valves so you can (in theory) isolate the tanks if you want. These changes will allow you to fill all 3 tanks from any port and you can have more flexibility in building your base as now the filling station can be only one port wide not 3 to properly fill the tanks, and the animations can be much simpler too.

With the game so heavily pased on engineering a way off the planet I think realism (as much as is reasonable) would be pretty important.

[Masterfox]

The New Liquid Wagon looks great! However the engineering/physics of the look are off. The wagon has 3 tanks with filler ports at the top and a large pipe at the side of each tank running between them ( about half way up the tank). Then the two outer tanks have pipes (2x ?, on both sides?, why? only one per tank is needed to prevent vapor lock. ) going to the filler ports. Assuming the filling ports have tubes inside the tank that run all the way down, the this means the filling station must connect to every tank individually to drain the tanks, otherwise only the connected tank would be completely emptied and the other two tanks would only be drained to the bottom level of the connector pipes. Also the center tank would become vapor locked when one of the other tanks are filled because it does not have the extra pipe connected to the filler port. While the design is cool, it is overly complicated. You only need two connector pipes running from tank to tank. A large one at the very bottom of the tank (for complete drainage of all 3 tanks) and a small one at the very top for air pressure equalization (to prevent vapor lock when filling or draining). All the extra pipes a superfluous (LOL, Get it?), You can keep the valves so you can (in theory) isolate the tanks if you want. These changes will allow you to fill all 3 tanks from any port and you can have more flexibility in building your base as now the filling station can be only one port wide not 3 to properly fill the tanks, and the animations can be much simpler too.

With the game so heavily pased on engineering a way off the planet I think realism (as much as is reasonable) would be pretty important.

That is of course right and a great idea. Let us say a tank has 1500 capacity. Then we could attach a pump to each of the three tanks individually or we could let it flow together and make it one big tank of 4500 capacity. This would allow some great plannings from a logistics point of view. You could have one united wagon drive in with oil and three seperated ones out with light and heavy oil and petroleum gas.

[aka13]

Research changes are truly brilliant! Thank you very much for finally adressing research!

[Drury]

So?

Chaos is fun, fair is oftentimes repetitive and boring.

Mix it up a little. You should care a little less about who wins, and a little more about how much fun the game was.

You can have both order and fun.

I've been on plenty of servers of various games where admins thought rules were arbitrary, it tends to descend into borderline unplayable absurdity. Not bad for a quick goof, but definitely not something you want to have as a game's official gamemode.

Well, it might sound strange - especially that you have conflicting views on the matter - but I think you both are right. Factorio as such, is not really suitable for quick skirmishes. However, if each "group" started with some basic factory premade, and some basic eq - that could find a nice balance between orderly gameplay and chaotic stir, I think. That way, you wouldn't have to focus so hard on providing yourself means to survive from the very begining, and you could turn your attention to more malevolent activities.
But as I said earlier, it all depends on an actual map size, and players per group

Well you don't purposely design gameplay to be chaotic, it happens by accident. Even if you try to make your game as balanced and pure of design as possible, there will always be a lot of ways to exploit the system. Especially so with a complex game like Factorio, which is why I think a robust ruleset should be a priority.

My point is, don't worry about it being too perfect. It won't be because it can't be. But devs should strive for it to be as controlled as possible just to have it at least a bit engaging. Factorio has tremendous potential to descend into a clusterfuck that gets boring after 3 rounds, and why even waste time making it at that point?

[bman212121]

A pvp with strict win condition in factorio? Really, just use that devtime on new mechanics or something. Games with >3 hours of base building aren't really fit for skirmishes.

I can think of one aspect of the game that would tie in. You could do PvP with a specific number of biter kills. The first team to kill 10K biters or an entered number would win. Because of the way they spawn, you'd need to build up a solid base that generates a lot of pollution in order to get the game to spawn more biters. If the balance is okay then there could be several strategies you could use. Imagine if a player setup a large pollution area and started taking on a lot of biters, that would be a great time to stop worrying about killing your own biters and attacking that players defenses to say take their turrets offline. With the additional power of the biters you could possibly overwhelm a team that you might not normally be able to overrun in normal PvP mode. It would give the PvP mode a lot more depth if you had to balance offense and defense at the same time while purposely having to increase difficulty on yourself in order to rack up kills faster.


I'd still love to see some type of tower defense scenario where the biters are setup to run a specific path that cannot be blocked and you'd have to compete to get the most kills. A Co-op tower defense is probably also a good scenario for this game as well.

[SteelWolf300]

When you destroy another team's silo, all their base are belong to you.

meme detected !!!


And I love how the liquid wagon looks... continue like that

[Avezo]

Random feedback from me about science packs:

-I don't like idea of using entire buildings to produce a science pack (pumpjack, assembling machine, electric furnaces)
-It also feels awkward to use such a basic item as copper wire for highest science pack
-I like using engine units for that, currently they feel like you barely see them, they go straight to what they are needed to
-Green circuits never being used for research feels weird

Also, since you were mentioning some time earlier incorporating nuclear power into the game, how about we assume bitters dig out radioactive stuff from the ground and then they drop it when they die and it's actually a power source? Or something like that in place of current alien artifacts.