[0.15] Research pack changes - too complex/difficult

[lewisd]

(I looked for threads about this but didn't see any)

After playing ~20-30 hours of 0.15, it feels like the research has gotten too complex. I've never gone this long in the game without being able to research logistics, to be able to use robots rather than belts to deliver required resources. The high-tech research that's required to be able to research that is the culprit. It feels like having 7 different research packs has made things significantly more complex than the 4 that were previously required, which has made the game significantly more difficult.

With ~150 hours played in prior versions, I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of how difficult the game was before, and 0.15 seems like a significant jump. I really want to see Factorio succeed, and I'm worried that making it too difficult will turn people off of it.

[mOoEyThEcOw]

I think the idea is to encourage people to spend more time with mid game technologies. A lot of stuff only requires reds and greens. I often build a red/green/military science facility, and then build out my train network and build a whole new science facility before I get any blue or above. The construction drones and logistics drones only require green technology to build (the logistics system takes purple) but you can do a lot of building and logistic stuff without the system. All you are missing is requester chests and active provider chests. It does mean building a bit more complicated supply chains for research packs, which extends the time spent doing conveyor/train puzzles in the game. Personally I really like it.

[Sneaker2]

IMO the jump from green science to blue is kind of harsh. Each and every time I look at blue science I think this wont take long to set up until I realize I need red circuits, which not only take long to manufacture and quite some resources and space but also the entire oil processing built up before this. Although I was on normal difficulty I already encountered middle and big worms in enemy bases, which I had to clear out even to get the first oil for the better weapons. I kind of had to sacrifice a car for that just to get rid of that base even with 10 battlebots deployed, because 5 small and middle worms just do that much damage. Some better weapons or armor would be great at that point. Many times I already wanted to change to modular armor, so I could get at least 1 shield up and running for the enemy base, but had to realize that that needed red circuits > plastic > first oil (which the enemy base was sitting on)

I would like to suggest that the blue science should rather include plastic + electric mining drill + motor parts (or blue inserters), which would make the step a little bit easier, since it mostly relys on stuff you already built and needed, and you "only" need to add the entire oil processing to get the pack parts ready. from there you can set up the red circuits, which are needed in huge quantities for everything anyway. I also dont really like the purple science pack that much, because it is also quite expensive, but the change before that should be observed before doing anything else.

[bobingabout]

when I Saw the logistics system required the top end science pack, high tech, I added a couple of lines in my mod to reduce the requirements to science pack 3.

I mean, I expand logistics in my mod, if it costs the top end science pack just to get the stuff, upgrading to my high end seems moot.

[Jürgen Erhard]

I think the idea is to encourage people to spend more time with mid game technologies. A lot of stuff only requires reds and greens. I often build a red/green/military science facility, and then build out my train network and build a whole new science facility before I get any blue or above. The construction drones and logistics drones only require green technology to build (the logistics system takes purple) but you can do a lot of building and logistic stuff without the system. All you are missing is requester chests and active provider chests. It does mean building a bit more complicated supply chains for research packs, which extends the time spent doing conveyor/train puzzles in the game. Personally I really like it.

"encourage" vs "force". Here, we are forced to do so because we cannot avoid it. "encourage" means something is optional but the game rewards its use in some way.

[AileTheAlien]

After playing ~20-30 hours of 0.15, it feels like the research has gotten too complex.

IMO the jump from green science to blue is kind of harsh.

"encourage" vs "force". Here, we are forced to do so because we cannot avoid it. "encourage" means something is optional but the game rewards its use in some way.

I think you all are forgetting how vastly more difficult blue science was to produce before the rebalance. In 0.14, you'd spend the huge majority of your time without blue science, because of how costly and complex it was to automate. After that was a very brief time researching every single thing that's blue because the effort to mass-produce blue science was less than the initial effort to produce it by hand, or even to automate it. Blue science used to use petroleum products, and it still uses petroleum products. The new setup to manufacture blue is easier than the old one.

There are now other science packs to make, but all of them exist on a spectrum of difficulty, and the player can choose which of the complex sciencees to automate first. e.g. I myself have skipped military science temporarily, because I'm spending my time building a rail network, and avoiding the aliens. That is to say, that the player has more incremental progress that can be made, and more choices available to them, with regards to science production and use. Both good things for the game.

[BlakeMW]

IMO the jump from green science to blue is kind of harsh. Each and every time I look at blue science I think this wont take long to set up until I realize I need red circuits, which not only take long to manufacture and quite some resources and space but also the entire oil processing built up before this. Although I was on normal difficulty I already encountered middle and big worms in enemy bases, which I had to clear out even to get the first oil for the better weapons.

It's pretty unlucky to not get any uncontested oil. One thing is that initially there probably is some oil in/near the starting area that is either undefended, or has a nest without worms on/near it. But over time biters will expand and these new expansion nests will have worms in much great numbers. Thus part of "advanced early game strategy" is running around and securing the resources you'll need in the future before the biters get set up properly (I like to drop a couple of turrets to stake my claim). Also, almost any nest can be taken out with nothing more than turrets firing AP ammo so you only need to pre-secure resources if you don't like offensive-turreting.

[bobingabout]

If the logistics system cost blue science, I'd be fine with it. In my mod I make blue science a bit more of a challenge, similar to how it was pre-0.15.

I'm also not a fan of putting machines in science packs, but it does make sense for production, so I removed the assembling machine from science pack 3, and put it on Production. Of course you need to fill the blank created by assembling machine, and for me that was a battery and brass plate, bringing the recipe darn close to pre 0.15 levels, except with my brass instead of steel, and keeping the 2 pack result. of course, since I removed the battery from high-tech science pack to put it back on science pack 3, I put a higher tier battery from my mod on there, but you'd need to think of something else for a high-tech science pack. I think I put processing units on there too.

It also felt like there was a gap in the technology tree too, it felt like they chose between production or military, meaning Logistics like robots used production science pack. I solved this issue by using a 3rd type, Logistics, that costs express belts, robot frames, Filter/Express inserters (depending on which of my mods are installed) and a steel chest. I then changed all of the research costs that I considered logistics (trains, inserters, robots, etc) to use my logistics pack instead of production. The pack is unlocked via Logistics 3 (where you get the express belts).

I think the changes I made gives the game a more balanced feel, and the only real complaints I've received about it so far is my use of Bronze for science pack 3, a material that isn't really used in my mod, and that I should use an alternative metal like Brass that is used a lot more, which would likely be steel anyway if these changes went to base game.

Anyway, in code that looks like this:

Code: Select all

data:extend(
{
  {
    type = "recipe",
    name = "logistic-science-pack",
    enabled = "false",
    energy_required = 14,
    ingredients =
    {
      {"filter-inserter", 1},
      {"express-transport-belt", 1},
      {"flying-robot-frame", 1},
      {"steel-chest", 1},
    },
    result_count = 2,
    result = "logistic-science-pack"
  },
}
)


bobmods.lib.tech.add_recipe_unlock("logistics-3", "logistic-science-pack")


if data.raw.item["lithium-ion-battery"] then
  bobmods.lib.recipe.replace_ingredient("high-tech-science-pack", "battery", "lithium-ion-battery")
  bobmods.lib.recipe.replace_ingredient("science-pack-3", "electric-mining-drill", "battery")
  bobmods.lib.recipe.replace_ingredient("production-science-pack", "electric-engine-unit", "electric-mining-drill")
  bobmods.lib.recipe.add_ingredient("high-tech-science-pack", {"electric-engine-unit", 1})
end

if data.raw.item["express-inserter"] then
  bobmods.lib.recipe.replace_ingredient("logistic-science-pack", "filter-inserter", "express-inserter")
end

if data.raw.item["bronze-alloy"] then
  bobmods.lib.recipe.add_ingredient("science-pack-3", {"bronze-alloy", 1})
end

if data.raw.item["silicon-nitride"] then
  bobmods.lib.recipe.remove_ingredient("high-tech-science-pack", "copper-cable")
  bobmods.lib.recipe.add_ingredient("high-tech-science-pack", {"silicon-nitride", 2})
end

[jonatkins]

FYI, there's already a long thread regarding the research requirement changes for requester chests in 0.15 - viewtopic.php?f=16&t=46236

Also, there's a mod that brings it batck to the 0.14 levels - red/green/blue science only: https://mods.factorio.com/mods/ItsTheKa ... search-fix

[Koub]

I honestly like the changes in science packs. I have stopped very numerous factorio games on the "wall of blue science", because the step was too big, and from clean and tidy, my factory suddenly became a pipe and belt mess when automating blue. Right now, the only oil product needed is plastic (for red circuits), and it's so simple to make I researched advanced oil with barrelled petroleum in a temporary setup, and automated the oil afterwards. And it took me like 10 hours before I decided to automate in order to research all the remaining of blue science : I had a lot of military science to research, and it kept my labs busy.

The only thing I dislike is the unbalance between iron needs and copper needs. I'm using iron like there's no tomorrow, while the first few smelters I set up for copper still cover my needs at all times. 20h into my game, I've used almost 4x as much iron as copper.

[Tev]

The only thing I dislike is the unbalance between iron needs and copper needs. I'm using iron like there's no tomorrow, while the first few smelters I set up for copper still cover my needs at all times. 20h into my game, I've used almost 4x as much iron as copper.

Tbh that's same as before, iron was more early/mid game, copper more late game resource (with modules being able to change the balance a lot).

I'd just add my usual-Deathworld-note that you seem to need actually LESS iron now, I'm now forced to expand for copper with plenty of iron left, and modules made it actually much worse (while previously they evened it out a lot it seemed to me, because of greens costing 0.71/0.74 or some such after modules). Rocket will probably chamge that again, but the pattern iron early - copper late seems to hold well. And that makes resource balance fine imo.

[dragontamer5788]

The only thing I dislike is the unbalance between iron needs and copper needs. I'm using iron like there's no tomorrow, while the first few smelters I set up for copper still cover my needs at all times. 20h into my game, I've used almost 4x as much iron as copper.

The main issue here is that all the science packs, aside from yellow science, weigh HEAVILY towards Iron usage. And Science is one of the biggest resource users in the game.

* Red Science: 2 Iron / 1 Copper
* Green Science: 5.5 Iron / 1.5 Copper
* Blue Science: 34 Iron / 9.5 Copper / 2 Plastic
* Military Science: 54 Iron / 15 Copper / 10 Coal
* Production Science: 93 Iron / 32.5 Copper / 10 Bricks / 10 Plastic / 15 Lubricant
* High-Science: 88 iron / 168.5 Copper / 22 Plastic / 25 Sulfuric Acid

The other problem is that Circuits are the only real use of Copper in the game. Everything else in the game uses Iron. If the game were rebalanced to use a bit more copper (ie: Brass Gear Wheel: 1 Iron / 1 Copper), then Copper would see more use. Alternatively: this isn't a problem at all. Iron is clearly the more "important" resource and this fact can be played around. It means that most search and expansion only revolves around Iron. In contrast, if Iron / Copper were "balanced", then searching / exploring would roughly look for Iron and Copper on expansions... making the mid-game more complicated. As it is, its more than possible to Launch the rocket using only the initial copper-mines in the starting area, with maybe ~1 or 2 expansions for Iron. If this were 'balanced" out, then players would have to not only expand for Iron... but ALSO expand for copper. IMO, that would complicate the midgame severely.

[BlakeMW]

Tbh that's same as before, iron was more early/mid game, copper more late game resource (with modules being able to change the balance a lot).

I'd just add my usual-Deathworld-note that you seem to need actually LESS iron now, I'm now forced to expand for copper with plenty of iron left, and modules made it actually much worse (while previously they evened it out a lot it seemed to me, because of greens costing 0.71/0.74 or some such after modules). Rocket will probably chamge that again, but the pattern iron early - copper late seems to hold well. And that makes resource balance fine imo.

The marathon/deathworld costs aren't as iron-biased as standard costs, mainly due to the green circuits having a 2:5 iron:copper ratio rather than a 1:1.5 - although this also makes marathon modules significantly more copper-hungry. I've mainly played Deathworld and I've always found it to be extremely iron-biased (mainly due to military science), until I start producing modules in quantity at which time I go back and start exploiting all the copper patches I'd secured in the process of securing iron.

I do believe though that modules have the effect of pushing the bias back towards iron for science packs, mainly because of copper wire, for the most part you can get +40% extra productivity on copper costs than iron costs, and also because of steel often being a final ingredient and gaining poorly from productivity. But I suppose if you're mainly expanding your production by making modules and not doing much research, then even prod3 copper wire isn't going to make green circuits copper biased: it becomes 2.8:5, compared with 1.4:1.5 for standard costs.

I think it is well agreed that Marathon has better iron/copper balance than standard costs.

[Tev]

I do believe though that modules have the effect of pushing the bias back towards iron for science packs, mainly because of copper wire, for the most part you can get +40% extra productivity on copper costs than iron costs, and also because of steel often being a final ingredient and gaining poorly from productivity. But I suppose if you're mainly expanding your production by making modules and not doing much research, then even prod3 copper wire isn't going to make green circuits copper biased: it becomes 2.8:5, compared with 1.4:1.5 for standard costs.

I think it is well agreed that Marathon has better iron/copper balance than standard costs.

Very good points (seriously where are the +1 buttons).

[Nasabot]

Even if iron and copper were balanced there is another aspect to consider: Using productivity modules in Copper wire production is an additional step which favours copper. So, in a normal game, productivity modules trivializes the copper cost of only product, where copper is dominant(green circuits).

[Koub]

I think it is well agreed that Marathon has better iron/copper balance than standard costs.

In that case, it would be neat that in the game modes where the balance is very off between copper and iron needs, the balance was tweaked to even partially iron and copper throughout the whole game. I mean I'm well into the science pack 3 and military science pack in my actual playthrough, and I consume iron around 3 to 4 times faster than copper. And I know that eventually, with late endgame, this unbalance will only decrease, while always iron-oriented.

I know nothing forbids me to build 4 times more iron ouposts than copper ones, but with default ressources, I have roughly as much copper as iron on the map, so that creates the "unbalance". I'd fint it more logical if with similar settings for both ressources, I could use up ressources patches at similar rate. And when I say similar, it's not a 100% accuracy I ask for, just not to have to run frenetically for every single iron patch I find, while living on the starting area's copper patch.

[JCav]

I realize this thread is a few months old, but in lieu of making a new thread I decided to add my input here.

Iron cost versus everything else is absurd. It would greatly improve the game experience if Iron wasn't needed in 3-4x the quantities of other ores. I've gone through a few million iron so far in my recent playthrough, and less than 700k Copper.

It just isn't fun to constantly be building railway stops solely for iron, and (relatively) never having to build a rail stop for any other purpose.

[Factory Lobster]

I realize this thread is a few months old, but in lieu of making a new thread I decided to add my input here.

Iron cost versus everything else is absurd. It would greatly improve the game experience if Iron wasn't needed in 3-4x the quantities of other ores. I've gone through a few million iron so far in my recent playthrough, and less than 700k Copper.

It just isn't fun to constantly be building railway stops solely for iron, and (relatively) never having to build a rail stop for any other purpose.

Iron is needed more before you get into robotics and modular units. After that, your copper requirement explodes.

[Hannu]

Iron cost versus everything else is absurd. It would greatly improve the game experience if Iron wasn't needed in 3-4x the quantities of other ores. I've gone through a few million iron so far in my recent playthrough, and less than 700k Copper.

In my opinion it is more interesting to have different consumption rates. And also varying ratios during the game. I would also like to have something very scarce and valuable, for which I had to explore large areas. There are not such material even in Bob's mods. There are more than enough all high tier metals in normal settings.

But if imbalance is annoying why not set iron richness to high or very high and copper richness to normal? I am pretty sure that everyone can find suitable balance by trying adjustments.

[JCav]

@Factory Lobster,

I've launched a rocket back in .14 experimental I believe. I know that copper will eventually be necessary in greater quantities, but iron usage is still much greater IMO. All the circuits that you need still use iron plates at the basic level, along with most other things.

@Hannu,

There's not an issue with having different consumption rates. My frustration comes from the scale of the difference. While I hadn't considered using the map adjustments to get what I want, it seems that my sentiment is not unheard of, and has some support of other members. To that end, I would say that the best solution would be either an adjustment to recipes, or ore saturation so that "Normal" settings are preferred. That's why we call it normal, after all.

Thank you for the reminder about map settings. I'll perhaps try that on my next playthrough (currently Lazy Bastarding and learning how to do nuclear power).