Suggestion about a water pump.

[Yoyobuae]

I personally would love universal barreling. Just consider that barreling/unbarreling of liquids are assembler recipes (hint: recipe switching ).

I almost expected that post now.

But I'll refer to what I wrote for ssilk... fluids are their own game mechanic.

Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier.

[MeduSalem]

Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier.

...

[Alien_Squasher]

Aww, but imagine how awesome it would be to put 2 lubricant filled barrels into unbarreling assembler, which outputs to a 5 tile pipe length (or better, pipe to ground) connecting to nowhere. Next the assembler switches over to blue belt production and slurps back the lubricant it output earlier.

...

......

I just died.

[JohnyDL]

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

[Deadly-Bagel]

...why? What would you accomplish by doing that? From a gameplay perspective you're only confusing newbies who don't understand that their pump is working but not very well. It's working without power so doesn't need power. I don't see any benefit to actually implementing it either, other than that you'll probably need less shoreline. I ask you why you'd bother with this suggestion at all? The main reason everyone wants it to use electricity is for "realism" but this suggestion doesn't carry that so seems like you're just jumping on the suggestion bandwagon.

[JohnyDL]

me? bandwagonning, nah just trying to provide a viable approach that won't make people too mad, it's 1200 now so powering it won't make it better than present. Having a trickle of water is actually kind of semi realistic, because you can hand power of battery power pumps a little without too much effort for a small amount of water but you can't get full throughput that way, even if you could you couldn't get it on all pumps that way. Confusing newbies is just one way of saying changing the learning curve there are things that are absolutely stupid in terms of the learning curve right now like the tech tree viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47945 but machines needing power to get the best use out of them is something fairly intuitive especially if you give them the flashing yellow warning system of everything else when they're unpowered.

[Deadly-Bagel]

If a trickle is realistic then a lot of trickles is realistic. Given the size of the pump compared to the smaller and much more powerful Electric Pump, plus the level of tech of the engineer, I don't see a problem.

[JohnyDL]

Hey I'm not saying it's THE idea and we HAVE to implement it that way, I just thought I'd add a new thought to the mix that hadn't been in three and a half pages of discussion. I had a one sentence idea and your criticism was wholy of the entire thread, that powering off shore pumps isn't necessary, and you're right it isn't that's why they are how they are now.

Why did I bother with the suggestion at all? I was really just throwing ideas out there, it was my first weigh in to the discussion and only cause someone else necro'd the thread. I really wanted something to add to the discussion rather than just moaning at them for not since that'd have been hypocritical of me, any suggestion even a bad one in my eyes was enough to negate that. As it is I stumbled on an idea that hadn't been submitted to the discussion at all yet and now with your help I've fully fleshed it out.

I think a lot of people want consistency between the offshore pump and the electric pump. The electric pump can be enabled/disabled implying solenoid actuator that needs power to allow any flow. While the 'little trickle' of the offshore pump isn't a 'little trickle' arbitrarily it's there because there could be an explanation for it, for hand pumping maybe you use player detection to get the hand pumping effect and there could be lots of little trickles by having lots of pumps in range sure but when the player walks away they stop so you need power for them. As for "if a trickle is realistic why not lots of trickles on the same pump" consider what my suggestion of a little trickle means 30l of water per second, which IRL is a hell of a trickle and a lot of hard work for any battery or human to do alone, the offshore pump moves 1.2 tonnes of water every second, sure there are even pumps that do that IRL but they aren't free and certainly not human powered.

That said I, in many ways, have no investment in the idea at all, I really don't care what happens one way or the other on the issue, I'm just adding to the discussion because you seem to want answers off me in particular to 'defend' my one idea tagged onto a thread of other discussions.

So if it takes a small amount of power needed for them IMO that's fine, the only real difference I see it making is that rebooting the energy system after a power failure is a bit more complicated but interesting none the less, since if there is power in the network then it works exactly the same as now and only adds a minor insubstantial power drain to the system as a whole cause it's got to fit in with early game power restrictions adding a pump that uses too much energy would cause chaos.

On the other hand leave it as it is and I'll be perfectly happy throwing down off shore pumps as and when I need them and ignoring them for the rest of the game.

[mexmer]

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

such mechanic doesn't make sense.

unlike burner inserter (which comes with enough energy to grab one piece of fuel, and feed itself), that can be manually fed if it derps.

also this doesn't give any incentive to game, only some weird mechanic, that will confuse people.

[mrvn]

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

such mechanic doesn't make sense.

unlike burner inserter (which comes with enough energy to grab one piece of fuel, and feed itself), that can be manually fed if it derps.

also this doesn't give any incentive to game, only some weird mechanic, that will confuse people.

Having pumps work badly without electricity is a bad idea. Nothing in the game works that way. Everything (except belts) needs energy and without energy it simply stops. And if you wonder in case of pipes the energy comes from gravity/pressure, it only equalizes on it's own.

What would make sense would be different pumps: slow burner pump, wind powered pump or wave powered and fast electric pump for example. I would actually think that would add something to the game. You start with crappy pumps and research better ones. At the start one pump is enough and later when you need them you have better pumps.

Another thing that would be consistent with how burner inserters work would be for the pump to have an initial energy. It could pump some water and then require recharge to work. So you get some water out of it initially, enough to start the boiler and steam engine. WHat I don't like about that is that after a brownout you have to remove and replace the pump to start up again. A burner or low power pump makes more sense.


Here is a new idea though: An offshore pump on it's own could produce less water, it's not that powerful. But an electric pump could draw a lot more water out of the pump if connected to it. It would help drive the pump by providing extra suction, extra lifting power to get the water from the ground into the pipe. Just like water flows slowly out of a tank into a pipe but an electric pump sucks water out of a tank at high speed.

[Ranakastrasz]

Having pumps work badly without electricity is a bad idea. Nothing in the game works that way. Everything (except belts) needs energy and without energy it simply stops. And if you wonder in case of pipes the energy comes from gravity/pressure, it only equalizes on it's own.

Only technically true. Everything that uses Electricity works badly with insufficient energy, and stops at zero energy. Everything slows down proportionally (with a bit of distortion because of "drain")

What would make sense would be different pumps: slow burner pump, wind powered pump or wave powered and fast electric pump for example. I would actually think that would add something to the game. You start with crappy pumps and research better ones. At the start one pump is enough and later when you need them you have better pumps.

Workable, but still doesn't seem nessesary.

Another thing that would be consistent with how burner inserters work would be for the pump to have an initial energy. It could pump some water and then require recharge to work. So you get some water out of it initially, enough to start the boiler and steam engine. WHat I don't like about that is that after a brownout you have to remove and replace the pump to start up again. A burner or low power pump makes more sense.

Yes, initial energy would be necessary, and death spirals are why people object to this change. I've tried a mod that makes belts use electricity, It wasn't fun at all.

Here is a new idea though: An offshore pump on it's own could produce less water, it's not that powerful. But an electric pump could draw a lot more water out of the pump if connected to it. It would help drive the pump by providing extra suction, extra lifting power to get the water from the ground into the pipe. Just like water flows slowly out of a tank into a pipe but an electric pump sucks water out of a tank at high speed.

o_O
That is a great idea. Use a pump to boost production, but have a base level. I think that would would work great. Note that if you use that, if you lose power it would still stop working, so you still have to manage the death spiral issue.

[JohnyDL]

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

such mechanic doesn't make sense.

unlike burner inserter (which comes with enough energy to grab one piece of fuel, and feed itself), that can be manually fed if it derps.

also this doesn't give any incentive to game, only some weird mechanic, that will confuse people.

The mechanic is exactly like the burner inserter it provides enough water to kick start electricity which in turn will provide it with power to run full speed, and I don't know if you missed this in a later post but it doesn't have to be 'free' you can have it powered by the same proximity sensor that opens gates

While the 'little trickle' of the offshore pump isn't a 'little trickle' arbitrarily it's there because there could be an explanation for it, for hand pumping maybe you use player detection to get the hand pumping effect and there could be lots of little trickles by having lots of pumps in range sure but when the player walks away they stop so you need power for them. As for "if a trickle is realistic why not lots of trickles on the same pump" consider what my suggestion of a little trickle means 30l of water per second, which IRL is a hell of a trickle and a lot of hard work for any battery or human to do alone, the offshore pump moves 1.2 tonnes of water every second, sure there are even pumps that do that IRL but they aren't free and certainly not human powered.

Having pumps work badly without electricity is a bad idea. Nothing in the game works that way. Everything (except belts) needs energy and without energy it simply stops. And if you wonder in case of pipes the energy comes from gravity/pressure, it only equalizes on it's own.

What would make sense would be different pumps: slow burner pump, wind powered pump or wave powered and fast electric pump for example. I would actually think that would add something to the game. You start with crappy pumps and research better ones. At the start one pump is enough and later when you need them you have better pumps.

Another thing that would be consistent with how burner inserters work would be for the pump to have an initial energy. It could pump some water and then require recharge to work. So you get some water out of it initially, enough to start the boiler and steam engine. WHat I don't like about that is that after a brownout you have to remove and replace the pump to start up again. A burner or low power pump makes more sense.


Here is a new idea though: An offshore pump on it's own could produce less water, it's not that powerful. But an electric pump could draw a lot more water out of the pump if connected to it. It would help drive the pump by providing extra suction, extra lifting power to get the water from the ground into the pipe. Just like water flows slowly out of a tank into a pipe but an electric pump sucks water out of a tank at high speed.

actually off shore pumps don't need electricity right now either that's the pump I was referring to not the electric pump

New pumps is exactly what I don't want, I really don't want to add something to the game just because. Adding a new pump type like a groundwater pump that's late game would be something that adds to the game as a whole, not fixes a problem that isn't a problem to everyone

Again if it's proximity powered you just have to walk over there to fix it, or you could supply it with it's own solar panel and accumulator late game just in case (when you have too many to give a kick start to on your own)

and that last idea is basically what my suggestion was initially except without having to wait to unlock the tech for electric pumps you get some you supply energy you get more but if you could over clock like that I think that'd be super useful but maybe you have to link them together with circuit wires too to get them to fully link right

[mexmer]

way to necro a post without adding to the discussion...

Since it's up here now though how about a pump that produces 30 liquid for free (unpowered) which is enough to start steam engines without being a hassle and then electricity turns that up to the full 1200

such mechanic doesn't make sense.

unlike burner inserter (which comes with enough energy to grab one piece of fuel, and feed itself), that can be manually fed if it derps.

also this doesn't give any incentive to game, only some weird mechanic, that will confuse people.

The mechanic is exactly like the burner inserter it provides enough water to kick start electricity which in turn will provide it with power to run full speed, and I don't know if you missed this in a later post but it doesn't have to be 'free' you can have it powered by the same proximity sensor that opens gates

seems you missing one crucial point about burner inserter ... burner inserter needs fuel to work, it has enough energy so it can grab 1 piece of fuel to feed itself to continue working. if it somehow derps, you can manualy pick fuel and feed it.

such does not apply to offshore pump.

if there was mechanic, that allows you to pickup bucket with water, and flush it either to pump, pipe or boiler, then your suggestion will make sense. but there is no such mechanics. so once pump is emptied (before it get powered up), it's dead and provides no value. while burner inserter, you still can restart by manual feeding.

hence why there were suggestions to have either "manual" powered, or fuel powered (burner pump) as replacement for starter pump, and offshore electric pump as advanced stage.

your suggestion doesn't make sense with any existing ingame concept or mechanics.

[JohnyDL]

seems you missing one crucial point about burner inserter ... burner inserter needs fuel to work, it has enough energy so it can grab 1 piece of fuel to feed itself to continue working. if it somehow derps, you can manualy pick fuel and feed it.

You missed my point the 'fuel' for the off shore pump trickle. And that is that it's powered by the player, yeah basically bucketing water but without adding a new mechanic, they might be invisibly turning a crank on the side of the pump for all I care. the whole proximity thing simulates that without having to add a new mechanic or object to the game to do the job manually.

which is what I said in the next quote kinda
JohnyDL wrote:
While the 'little trickle' of the offshore pump isn't a 'little trickle' arbitrarily it's there because there could be an explanation for it, for hand pumping maybe you use player detection to get the hand pumping effect and there could be lots of little trickles by having lots of pumps in range sure but when the player walks away they stop so you need power for them. As for "if a trickle is realistic why not lots of trickles on the same pump" consider what my suggestion of a little trickle means 30l of water per second, which IRL is a hell of a trickle and a lot of hard work for any battery or human to do alone, the offshore pump moves 1.2 tonnes of water every second, sure there are even pumps that do that IRL but they aren't free and certainly not human powered.
but I'm pretty sure you ignored that since you didn't quote that in your reply

[mrvn]

Here is a new idea though: An offshore pump on it's own could produce less water, it's not that powerful. But an electric pump could draw a lot more water out of the pump if connected to it. It would help drive the pump by providing extra suction, extra lifting power to get the water from the ground into the pipe. Just like water flows slowly out of a tank into a pipe but an electric pump sucks water out of a tank at high speed.

o_O
That is a great idea. Use a pump to boost production, but have a base level. I think that would would work great. Note that if you use that, if you lose power it would still stop working, so you still have to manage the death spiral issue.

Just like your electric miner stops mining coal and your boilers go cold. And just like you can have one burning miner to supply coal without electricity so you can have one pump connected without electric pump to provide a trickle of water. That then generates a trickle of electricity and the electric pumps can spin up. Design it right and you have a life spiral counteracting the death spiral.

Imho a power death spiral is a ride of passage. You have to go through it. Then you know to look out for your coal. Have a backup power plant to start up again, add a speaker that warns about coal running out. Lots of ways to prevent the issue. Finding them is part of the game.

Energy might even be too simple to get. I'm still not using power switches to switch parts of the factory off when not needed and such thing to conserve energy. I've never yet run out of coal in my explored region. I've nearly run out of iron ore more than one and had to actively go hunting for more and clean out aliens. Iron ore seems to be most sparse in the presets. (ignoring oil since that just gets slow, never dries up)

[BlackKnight]

Some interesting / effective solutions proposed.

At this point, I have a feeling that its going to be hard to convince the devs to be lenient on these matters with a few features and a million bugs yet to resolve..

Personally, I am for anything that makes Factorio more Realistic! ... Because inexplicably free things (in this case power) always work to dissolve the games reality. I know devs have stated in the past that some items work like this or that with simplified mechanics due (most frequently) to ease of understanding for new players and that it would change mechanics too much from what everyone who plays the game, expects. Honestly though, can't we compromise on this view point even a little... ?

[Koub]

Personally, I am for anything that makes Factorio more Realistic! ... Because inexplicably free things (in this case power) always work to dissolve the games reality.

I think the offshore pump should stay as it is. The quest for realism is similar to any other thing : the excess of it won't get the game any better.

You want realism ? True hardcore realism like in real life ?
Has your character ever eaten or drank since you started playing ? Slept ? Washed ? Got to the loo ? Where does the air you breath in your cosmonaut suit come from ? Is it logical that the biter species evolve so fast when in real life, evolutions are on a geological scale ? How come a species can evolve without a proper ecosystem ? You have to stop somewhere your quest for realism before the game becomes unfun.

[mophydeen]

Personally, I am for anything that makes Factorio more Realistic! ... Because inexplicably free things (in this case power) always work to dissolve the games reality.

I think the offshore pump should stay as it is. The quest for realism is similar to any other thing : the excess of it won't get the game any better.

You want realism ? True hardcore realism like in real life ?
Has your character ever eaten or drank since you started playing ? Slept ? Washed ? Got to the loo ? Where does the air you breath in your cosmonaut suit come from ? Is it logical that the biter species evolve so fast when in real life, evolutions are on a geological scale ? How come a species can evolve without a proper ecosystem ? You have to stop somewhere your quest for realism before the game becomes unfun.

[Hannu]

You want realism ? True hardcore realism like in real life ?

No. Normal living operations would be very boring an out of the scope of the game. I do not want even true technical realism, because planning of small factory takes thousands of engineer work hours and planning and building of production chain able to launch rockets to orbit takes resources of big country. But I want to have consistent and as realistic game as practically possible. I would like also to have possibility to fail, if I make wrong decisions. It is something that hardly any current building and engineering game gives. Also in real life, if country, city or large industrial plant do not plan electric power network correctly it leads to huge and expensive problems and needs much work to restart after shutdown.

How come a species can evolve without a proper ecosystem ? You have to stop somewhere your quest for realism before the game becomes unfun.

There is some room between simulation of complete ecosystem with thousands of species and electricity consumption of simple pump. But of course I see your reality as devs and accept that pumps are what they are and write about realism in more general level. It would in any case be very small detail in my games to make emergency power system. But this kind of details break immersion and entertainment. Unfortunately it is probably not realistic hope to have ever interesting and really challenging engineering game for professional engineers. Most of them do not want to think technical things on their free time and no one else would play such a game.

[steinio]

Ram pump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zk9zs0EQIQ8