[MOD 1.1] Xander Mod v3.6.1

[Repofme1]

a new game. there are no electric poles. who faced? prescription is also not ...

yes - find and open technology - hardness

Correct - the "electricity" tech unlocks electric poles. Start your automation with simple burner machines: drill, assembler, furnaces, inserters, chemical reactor, machine tool, lab.

[Repofme1]

Hi all,

So, I'm nearly ready to publish the 1.3.0 update, but I want to include some fix to the high use of raw wood. Even though I dislike this solution, my current plan is, yes, to add a greenhouse type building. Finding some convoluted alternative is simply not worth the extra time and aggravation - I can't wait to complete the early game and move on to the REAL bulk of Xander Mod. Before I put it in, I wanted to ask what everyone thinks of these parameters:

• - Crude-tier greenhouse crafted with some crude parts, so it is impractical once you have oil-based alternatives to wood.
  - Uses 200 kW electric energy so it is not immediately available - you still have to chop some trees yourself.
  - Recipe: 10 wood + 50 water --(10 seconds)--> 11 wood. Should I include any other ingredients like stone or clay? Should I include some kind of sapling tree item like Bob has, for greater complexity?
  - Crafting speed of 1, combined with 200 kW electric consumption, and 1/2 efficiency of boilers, means that 4 MJ are needed per 1 wood output (1 coal yields energy for 4 wood).
  - One dedicated technology to unlock - not sure exactly where it belongs in the tech tree though.

Let me know if this feels balanced or not.

[orzelek]

I'm not sure you need a greenhouse.
It would need to be pretty similar or better then bob's one or we will simply use one from bob's

[Ratzap]

I'm not sure you need a greenhouse.
It would need to be pretty similar or better then bob's one or we will simply use one from bob's

That's probably a rather irksome reply, he's implied a couple of times he intends this to be standalone and not have all sorts of other things mixed in.

Personally if I was doing it I'd try something different. A greenhouse can't speed up growth, trees take decades to grow (even the fastest soft woods need years) so they seem rather dumb to me. I'd rather see a building which harvests wood/trees in the chunk it is placed in. When it's all gone, tough, move the building. That would make it handy without being too OP and later you'd use robots or alternate wood replacements.

[orzelek]

I'm not sure you need a greenhouse.
It would need to be pretty similar or better then bob's one or we will simply use one from bob's

That's probably a rather irksome reply, he's implied a couple of times he intends this to be standalone and not have all sorts of other things mixed in.

Personally if I was doing it I'd try something different. A greenhouse can't speed up growth, trees take decades to grow (even the fastest soft woods need years) so they seem rather dumb to me. I'd rather see a building which harvests wood/trees in the chunk it is placed in. When it's all gone, tough, move the building. That would make it handy without being too OP and later you'd use robots or alternate wood replacements.

It might been a bit ironic... but basically there are a lot of mods and while mod might duplicate stuff from others to feel more complete it doesn't mean it will be used like that. And it might be better to spend that time on doing something else for the mod.

Growing trees were... tried already in mods. And even with a lot of optimizations on them sooner or later they would start to get performance heavy.
If mod likes to have wood automation there is no other good solution currently as some kind of greenhouse like entity.

[donoya]

Hi all,

So, I'm nearly ready to publish the 1.3.0 update, but I want to include some fix to the high use of raw wood. Even though I dislike this solution, my current plan is, yes, to add a greenhouse type building. Finding some convoluted alternative is simply not worth the extra time and aggravation - I can't wait to complete the early game and move on to the REAL bulk of Xander Mod. Before I put it in, I wanted to ask what everyone thinks of these parameters:

• - Crude-tier greenhouse crafted with some crude parts, so it is impractical once you have oil-based alternatives to wood.
  - Uses 200 kW electric energy so it is not immediately available - you still have to chop some trees yourself.
  - Recipe: 10 wood + 50 water --(10 seconds)--> 11 wood. Should I include any other ingredients like stone or clay? Should I include some kind of sapling tree item like Bob has, for greater complexity?
  - Crafting speed of 1, combined with 200 kW electric consumption, and 1/2 efficiency of boilers, means that 4 MJ are needed per 1 wood output (1 coal yields energy for 4 wood).
  - One dedicated technology to unlock - not sure exactly where it belongs in the tech tree though.

Let me know if this feels balanced or not.

I think the greenhouse is a great idea. But maybe instead of wood, use bamboo since it makes more sense with the growth times (And even then, it seems a bit quick). As for making it more realistic for wood growth, maybe make it use the dirty water in place of the normal water. It would also give an early use for the stuff.

[jodokus31]

Hi all,

So, I'm nearly ready to publish the 1.3.0 update, but I want to include some fix to the high use of raw wood. Even though I dislike this solution, my current plan is, yes, to add a greenhouse type building. Finding some convoluted alternative is simply not worth the extra time and aggravation - I can't wait to complete the early game and move on to the REAL bulk of Xander Mod. Before I put it in, I wanted to ask what everyone thinks of these parameters:

• - Crude-tier greenhouse crafted with some crude parts, so it is impractical once you have oil-based alternatives to wood.
  - Uses 200 kW electric energy so it is not immediately available - you still have to chop some trees yourself.
  - Recipe: 10 wood + 50 water --(10 seconds)--> 11 wood. Should I include any other ingredients like stone or clay? Should I include some kind of sapling tree item like Bob has, for greater complexity?
  - Crafting speed of 1, combined with 200 kW electric consumption, and 1/2 efficiency of boilers, means that 4 MJ are needed per 1 wood output (1 coal yields energy for 4 wood).
  - One dedicated technology to unlock - not sure exactly where it belongs in the tech tree though.

Let me know if this feels balanced or not.

I think, a greenhouse is a good solution. We could say, that life on this planet is really fast, cause biters also instantially spawn
The idea to call it bamboo and uses some special water is not bad, imo. You could replace all raw wood recipes with wood plate and have a recipe for bamboo -> wood plate
The idea with the autoharvesting machine is not bad, if you want wood consumption to be limited. F.e. place it in a big forest, like wood miner, and wait, till it fills up with wood and remove the trees from the map. But i think, you have implement "complicated" stuff and it doesnt look realistic.

I think, you could do it with the greenhouse and check later, if you find a fancier solution
4 wood per 1 coal is ok, i think. It should be so, that is doesnt pay off to generate wood to create fuel for boilers.

If you later dont need any wood in the advanced recipes, then the greenhouses are obsolete. But I think, you should not totally block wood recipes in later machines. I think its a bit frustating, if you learned how to setup a special recipe and later its not possible to use it in better machines (Because otherwise, if you want the crude way, you have to create crude parts for old machines. And if you want it the advanced way, you have to dive into the new tech branch and it only works, since everything is upgraded at once.) It just should be less efficient to use old recipes. This might be a big task to balance it out.

[Repofme1]

Hi all -

Wow, a lot of ideas for fixing these stupid lumber problems we've been having! And fast too. To wrap up my thoughts:

This problem with wood happens because the stuff is relatively easy to produce in reality, but not in Factorio. The main reasons are time (as pointed out), but also the labor of planting and cutting the trees. Humanity has an ample supply of people with enough brains and brawn to do such work (plus machinery to help them), but you're alone in Factorio. I guess the fundamental ideas that I base Xander Mod on are better suited to a civilization simulator, but those have their own issues, and... Factorio is the game I stumbled upon!

I like the idea of a building that collects existing trees, because I appreciate the realism that they take way too long to grow. I imagine that it would be relatively simple to code, and not too performance-heavy, since it's not generating new trees. It is also intended only as a temporary solution for the early-game, until the need for wood is replaced, which *should* limit performance problems. However... I still can't code such a building. It's mostly a matter of just working up the courage to figure out a small foothold of the API, but that's a stubborn thing internal to my person that I can't really rush. Also, recognizing and cutting randomly scattered trees is a difficult task for machines, and seems implausible for such a basic level of technology (at least from a hard realism perspective).

I also intended the XM "wood-making building solution" to represent not growing wood or plants, but instead skipping the over long, boring stretches of time where the player gathers trees off-camera. That'll be the XM flavor for it, I guess, to perhaps distinguish it from other mods a bit. The use of waste water is a clever idea, but I'm not sure that the supply and demand would work out nicely. Maybe I can find a way to work it in...

Considering the obsolescence of wood products, to me it doesn't feel much different from doing the same thing to other products. Yes, the setups will be broken, but there are already so many other setups that will be broken by the single advancement from the burner to electric era. I mean, think of all the processes we don't do any more (ex. wrought iron), because we have so much better replacements now (steel, in this example). And I think, the crude recipes in XM are less efficient in time and material than the advanced ones. Also, of all the uses for wood, Factorio doesn't really have many. It's mostly used for construction and fuel, with small but significant use of its chemical extracts. for these roles, wood fits best in Factorio as a crude but early accessible replacement for improved ways to do stuff. Wood has only moderate strength in construction, and most Factorio things have needs for strength, durability, or precision that are better filled by metals and ceramics. As for chemical uses, crude oil is also better. It's much easier to automatically mine and use in bulk, like Factorio needs, and more chemically versatile. Maybe I need to make oil refining more accessible... Although I definitely moved the pumpjack up, the refining and processing may not reflect that. Eventually energy is supplied by solar, and raw materials for organic chemistry come out of the air.

In conclusion, it seems I will have to add a "logging camp" building, rather than a greenhouse. But I also should reduce the amount of wood that is used (especially for bulk products that go into science, like circuits), in order to seriously address the problem. I feel that such a fix will do for now, but it still feels like a patch, even if it's good. Once I work up the courage and ability I would like to use the gathering machine idea as a fancy solution, but we'll see how the mod (and my tastes for realism) evolve over that time.

[Ratzap]

Coding something like that wouldn't be too tough to be honest. Base it on the assembler entity then decide what inputs (if any) it would need. You could make it need electricity, steam, water and/or fuel (or a mixture of them). Drag chains and some kind of saw come to mind from logging in the 19th Century. Decide how fast it removes trees and code that as a timer. If ticks since the last tree > timer, search the current chunk for a tree or dead tree. Add wood equal to the found item as output and call destroy on the one you found. If no candidates are found, do nothing.

If you want to create a sprite and knock up a starter for 10, I should have time in the next couple of weeks to code it for you.

[Repofme1]

Hi all -

So, I finally got around to finishing 1.3.0. I wish it hadn't taken so long, because I've only put in a couple new features in the past two weeks, but between university classes and moving to a new apartment, I only had a few spare hours.

That being said, I'm happy that this update does address everything I wanted it to, at least in my plans from two weeks ago. The highlights are on the main post along with the full log file, but I'll quickly copy them here:

• - Fixed ore processing recipes
  - Added crude-tier waste treatment
  - Made electric furnaces actually available
  - Somewhat better distinction between machine tools and assemblers
  - Logging camp to increase raw wood supply. VERY PLACEHOLDER, simply multiplies wood for now
  - Much easier access to trains
  - New RSO config attached to main post, just doubles the previous amounts of starting area resources
  - Recycling of some common crude machines back to iron plates

As an advisory, I expect to be very busy with classes for the next two months, so progress will be slow. I do, however, intend to maintain a similar level of quality and quantity for each update.

[Repofme1]

Coding something like that wouldn't be too tough to be honest. Base it on the assembler entity then decide what inputs (if any) it would need. You could make it need electricity, steam, water and/or fuel (or a mixture of them). Drag chains and some kind of saw come to mind from logging in the 19th Century. Decide how fast it removes trees and code that as a timer. If ticks since the last tree > timer, search the current chunk for a tree or dead tree. Add wood equal to the found item as output and call destroy on the one you found. If no candidates are found, do nothing.

If you want to create a sprite and knock up a starter for 10, I should have time in the next couple of weeks to code it for you.

Hi Ratzap -

Thanks for the offer to help, I would very much appreciate that! I added an assembler-type logging camp entity with a placeholder wood-multiplying recipe for 1.3.0, that seems like the best place to start if you want. The logic flow sounds close to how I would put it, it's the implementation I'm lacking. Seeing the code - even just which file it belongs in - would be a huge boost for me to understand how Factorio scripting works.

Although I don't know what a "starter for 10" means...

[Ratzap]

Hi Ratzap -

Thanks for the offer to help, I would very much appreciate that! I added an assembler-type logging camp entity with a placeholder wood-multiplying recipe for 1.3.0, that seems like the best place to start if you want. The logic flow sounds close to how I would put it, it's the implementation I'm lacking. Seeing the code - even just which file it belongs in - would be a huge boost for me to understand how Factorio scripting works.

Although I don't know what a "starter for 10" means...

Ok. I'll should be able to get something for you by the weekend.

[orzelek]

Perfect timing with config update since I was just planning to release another update.
So new config is in 3.4.5.

[jodokus31]

Hi all -

So, I finally got around to finishing 1.3.0. I wish it hadn't taken so long, because I've only put in a couple new features in the past two weeks, but between university classes and moving to a new apartment, I only had a few spare hours.

That being said, I'm happy that this update does address everything I wanted it to, at least in my plans from two weeks ago. The highlights are on the main post along with the full log file, but I'll quickly copy them here:

• - Fixed ore processing recipes
  - Added crude-tier waste treatment
  - Made electric furnaces actually available
  - Somewhat better distinction between machine tools and assemblers
  - Logging camp to increase raw wood supply. VERY PLACEHOLDER, simply multiplies wood for now
  - Much easier access to trains
  - New RSO config attached to main post, just doubles the previous amounts of starting area resources
  - Recycling of some common crude machines back to iron plates

As an advisory, I expect to be very busy with classes for the next two months, so progress will be slow. I do, however, intend to maintain a similar level of quality and quantity for each update.

Thank you. I cannot say much about the new features at the moment, because I restarted my map. It was such a mess Wanted to get rid of bobs greenhouse and some other resource and water settings. I can say, that it feels relativly smooth to restart compared to the beginnings. Although its still a nice challenge. Was again overwhelmed by the complexity of the circuits

Early dash for circuits without ratios

circuits.jpg (101.1 KiB) Viewed 8847 times

I tried the logging camp thing and it does was it should. Simple and easy. I'm excited what Ratzap will bring up, I have a lot of forest to clear

[Airat9000]

Hello questions.. wtah in Heavy Mineral Sands? Where to use it?

2017-10-05_2-42-36.png (212.09 KiB) Viewed 8839 times

[Repofme1]

Perfect timing with config update since I was just planning to release another update.
So new config is in 3.4.5.

Thanks!

[Repofme1]

Hi all -

...etc...

Thank you. I cannot say much about the new features at the moment, because I restarted my map. It was such a mess Wanted to get rid of bobs greenhouse and some other resource and water settings. I can say, that it feels relativly smooth to restart compared to the beginnings. Although its still a nice challenge. Was again overwhelmed by the complexity of the circuits

Early dash for circuits without ratios

circuits.jpg

I tried the logging camp thing and it does was it should. Simple and easy. I'm excited what Ratzap will bring up, I have a lot of forest to clear

I'm glad the early start is better, now I can work on smoothing the initial electric era. I also can't wait to try out his automatic tree remover, and look at the code too to see if I can understand it. It's good that the log machine is simple - I'm glad something came out right!

Something feels wrong about the circuits, your setup is definitely bare minimal to what I've put in, yet it feels too complicated. (EDIT: I get this feeling looking at my own basic, no-ratio setup too.) This makes me want to simplify all three tiers of circuits, then add a fourth tier, like how I remember Bob's electronics. That will definitely be on my mind.

[Repofme1]

Hello questions.. wtah in Heavy Mineral Sands? Where to use it?

2017-10-05_2-42-36.png

4 components:
chromite = FeCr2O4 -> for chromium
rutile = TiO2 -> for titanium
zirconia = ZrO2 -> for zirconium
sand = SiO2 -> waste from extracting chromite, rutile, or zirconia

You can only get 1 component at a time from heavy sand, for example: 10 heavy sand -> 10 chromite (makes 20 chromium), OR 10 heavy sand -> 10 rutile (makes 10 titanium), OR 10 heavy sand -> 2 zirconia (makes 2 zirconium). The electric mineral processor (tier 1), or integrated mineral plant (tier 2), does these recipes.

[Ratzap]

Still finishing off a project for a client but I had time to look into this.

You've used an assembler as the prototype but I think it'll be easier to do as a (burner) miner entity. I'll leave all the definitions where you've put them but flip them over to use miner prototype. Code in control.lua will catch build/mine events and set up an on_tick. When built, calculate the amount of wood available and add that to an invisible 'wood ore' patch the camp is on. Recalculate the amount every Y ticks in case the player is harvesting by hand or runs over trees. Every X wood the miner spits out, remove one tree/fallen tree as appropriate during the on_tick. When the camp is mined or the wood is used up, remove the invisible patch.

I can't remember if on_load is safe for MP now or not. I think there's an on_join which does work for both SP and MP though. Anyhow, I'll drop you a PM once there's something to test.

[GeekinaCave]

question, steel parts wouldn't be prerequisite to logistic I considering it is needed for craft it?