Friday Facts #224 - Bots versus belts

[Koub]

The thing is : If half the players want to keep (or even buff) the logistic bots, and half of them want to get rid of (or violently debuff) them, which half should the devs upset (if they were really considering to do something, even radical, for good) ?

Pretty sure that buffing belts and inserters won't upset very many people.

That's why I hope the devs will arrive to the same conclusion ^^.

[Engimage]

The thing is : If half the players want to keep (or even buff) the logistic bots, and half of them want to get rid of (or violently debuff) them, which half should the devs upset (if they were really considering to do something, even radical, for good) ?

Pretty sure that buffing belts and inserters won't upset very many people.

Well said. There were tons of suggestions of how to buff belts this making them more attractive for end game and turn the game into “more creative” way. Almost none of these solutions will upset any players while solving the issue

However removing bots will upset almost everyone including me while I am belt lover.

[meganothing]

The thing is : If half the players want to keep (or even buff) the logistic bots, and half of them want to get rid of (or violently debuff) them, which half should the devs upset (if they were really considering to do something, even radical, for good) ?

I don't think it is this way. I haven't seen people here who think bots overpowered really demand THEY want logistics bots removed. It is one thing to say "Twinsen you are right, bots are overpowered, I'm ok if they are removed or nerfed" and a totally different thing to say "I really really WANT them nerfed or removed".

Even someone who wants them nerfed probably doesn't have a strong preference for that but just wants more balance for his own game because he might believe to not have the restraint to not use them. In competitive games that is a typical motivation, not in Factorio

If I'm wrong, please someone who really WANTS them nerfed or even removed please speak up now.

I simply don’t understand the personal world view of “if I can’t have it the way I want it, no one should have it”.

Well, maybe that person just might not exist in this forum, or does it?

[Blahbla]

I would be a lot happier with the game if the logistics bots were removed. Maybe someone will make a mod of it?

[garath]

I would be a lot happier with the game if the logistics bots were removed. Maybe someone will make a mod of it?

There isn't much interest in mods that remove stuff. If you don't want to use logistic bots, then simply don't research them. Or, research them and don't use them.

[meganothing]

I would be a lot happier with the game if the logistics bots were removed. Maybe someone will make a mod of it?

And your reason to want that?

[Yinan]

The thing is : If half the players want to keep (or even buff) the logistic bots, and half of them want to get rid of (or violently debuff) them, which half should the devs upset (if they were really considering to do something, even radical, for good) ?

None.
They buff bots and add an option to start the game without the tech for bots.

Best of both worlds.

You want to play without bots? Start a map without them!
You want to play with bots? Start a map with them!

It's as easy as that. Nobody should get upset over that and everyone got what they want.
Well everyone except those people who think that their play stile is the only true playstile that makes fun and everyone else is wrong. But frankly, those people can get upset all they want, they don't deserve any better.

[Tricorius]

I would be a lot happier with the game if the logistics bots were removed. Maybe someone will make a mod of it?

I’m curious to understand this perspective. If it is how you feel, then it is how you feel.

I’m curious though, why do you feel this way? What benefits to your happiness level happen if bots are removed?

[TheBrain0110]

I happened to spot something along these lines in the Steam comments on this, and while I'm sure similar sentiments have come up here too (I can't read 39 pages of replies right now...), I wanted to echo it as what I see as the ideal solution:

From my experience Bots are the superior way to move large quantities of Material. Since unlimited Bots can interact with a Chest at the same time and an Inserter can only grab X every Animation and after that beeing bottlenecked by Belt Speed. The only way i see to "nerf" Bots is to limit interaction with Chests. Like Roboports where every bot has to wait for Charging at the limited Pads, a interaction time and "bots at the same time" limitation at Chests would nerf them from beeing the Best solution to a "uncommon Crafted item use" Logistic option.

Basically, just limit bot interactions so only 1 or a couple can interact with a chest / machine at once. Solves all our problems, right?

[PanteraSan]

Well, let's think a minute about the number of casual players, and the numbers of us, hardcore Factorio players.
Remember when you were playing for the first time, what was the sensation when you finally managed to create your first logisitic network?
When you finally see your first bot flying to deliver to you some advanced circuits?
It was like "woah, its working!" sensation. Just like magic
You can't scrap the bots idea, it is one of the things that make Factorio, well, Factorio.

For the more avid players, they soon anyone realize that without bots, megabases would be just boring to build. The bots starts to get overpowered, the more you know about the system and how to use it, making it a pain to balance it without breaking something or upsetting a lot of people
In this stage, the player starts to chose what they like better to expand his base, belts, bots or a mix of things.

My opinion is that the logistic bots are overpowered in its current state (the construction ones are in balanced position right now).
Why not just add a scalling system, just like pollution or bitters resources?
With "normal" being the default state in a default game, it changes nothing.
"Less overall bots" would scale the resources required for the bots up, like for 100 bots in game, the 101th and onward costs twice the resources, scalling every 100 or 200 perhaps?
It can be scaled up for a more bot oriented playstyle, and the "less bots" one can be the default for a hard preset game, like death world (remember, we are working on the idea that logistic bots make the game "easier").
You can select even a non bot game, where bots can't be build, ever. Or create a preset with really expensive science for bot related researchs, and less resources to create them.

[rldml]

I would be a lot happier with the game if the logistics bots were removed. Maybe someone will make a mod of it?

I’m curious to understand this perspective. If it is how you feel, then it is how you feel.

I’m curious though, why do you feel this way? What benefits to your happiness level happen if bots are removed?

Oh, that's simple. You can sell a cup of water to some people and they get get it on fire, just to have something to complain about . I'm pretty sure most factorio players really don't want to remove bots from the game. With an option to deactive them for a game and/or buff belts in some way would make nearly all gamers happy here

[TiMatic]

And whats with players that don't like solar power, artillery or other stuff. Should there not be also an option then to deactive this things too?
I think the game menu should not provide such options, that can be decided during the game by simply not using this things.

[SpoonUnit]

How about an achievement for completing without bots and an achievement for completing with bots (which requires a certain percentage of bots to belts that forces you to really learn how to master bots rather than just use them to simplify things?

[SpoonUnit]

Also, as and when changes are made, there's always an option to play on an old stable version as a result of Steam's beta selection capability together with the factorio devs retaining old stable versions on Steam (if I read this right):

[TiMatic]

But then you don't get any further performance patches. And the mega base builders want to have such performance patches.

[Proply]

My 2 cents:

Logistics bots used as replacement for high-throughput belts are really boring, but I am fine with "end-consumer delivery" style bots that supply low-throughput items to spread-out consumers (eg: artillery shells to cannons) where a belt-based solution would introduce a lot of spaghetti. This could be achieved by limiting the number of items carried by logistic bots to one and limiting the number of "in flight" logistic bots that can be supported by a roboport, with diminishing returns for additional roboports on the same network (signal interference or whatever). However, player logistic bots should not be nerfed vs. now, though if construction bots take over this role (as suggested in the FF) this would not be an issue.

[Neandertal]

The thing is : If half the players want to keep (or even buff) the logistic bots, and half of them want to get rid of (or violently debuff) them, which half should the devs upset (if they were really considering to do something, even radical, for good) ?

My personal opinion, if you upset people with a decision you make and they leave, you probably didn't want them in your community in the first place, if they get over it and stay they are the type of people you want in your community.

So please go ahead and upset some people. lets see who really cares enough to stick around.

[Bauer]

Are you asking for a container type belt?

Such better belts are called "trains".

[FireStormOOO]

I've been using a healthy mix of bots, belts, trains and pipes up to this point, so this posting got me thinking. The overall utility shouldn't be reduced, but the expense of an all bot base that can build the rocket should be astronomical compared to the rocket itself.
Belts are underpowered more so than bots are too powerful. Belts take up an enormous amount of space in my factory to do what bots can to in two chests, so I should really be getting more for that than low power usage. I do feel like bots smooth out some parts of my factory that would be very tedious otherwise; it also makes it much more forgiving when I make a mistake with belts that would require tearing up half my factory to fix. Making the game forgiving to mistakes and allowing organic growth of the factory (as opposed to meticulously planned growth with scratch paper) is going to help new player experience. Bots should be a resource that players apply to get themselves out of sticky or tedious situations, but should be reined in from where it is now.

Possible belt buffs; general theme, do much more in the same space

• Belt multiplexer: End tier upgrade allows multiple belts to stack "vertically" on top of each-other so that more than 2 types of materials can go on one tile of belt. There would be a structure to combine multiple normal belts into the multiplexed one. Filter inserters could take from any layer.
• Stack inserter upgrades benefit belts. Every other upgrade (IE when non-stack inserters get an upgrade) also upgrade belts so that each spot on the belt can hold an additional item. Alternately, decrease the required space between items on belts to half, third, quarter of the original spacing. I imagine the latter would be easier to implement. Alternately, any variant on upgradability of belt throughput through research.
• Stack inserter researches can be buffed significantly. Many more levels and lower beaker cost
• Belt cost compared to bot cost needs to be lower since so many are required.
• Add more utility to inserters at end game, for example the best possible inserter could be a filter stack inserter able to pick up from and place into any arbitrary spot in a 2 or even 3 tile radius; it could be asked to pick from one or more inventories and place into one or more inventories. It could be asked to balance N chests. There are some huge buffs possible for inserters. They're robotic arms - utility and flexibility should continue increasing as the game progresses. Advanced/programmable inserters can compete with the bots for the global command and control resource mentioned below.

Bot rebalance; continue increasing utility, reduce scalability and increase cost

• Bots require global "command and control" resource. This is provided by "datacenters", an expensive structure requiring lots of power and made with processors. Players get some of this resource for free from their salvaged ship computer. This resource is consumed to control active bots. Additionally, roboports can control 2 or 4 bots each. Construction should require less of this resource than logistics.
• Requester and active provider chests also consume this C&C resource.
• Bots must queue to access an inventory rather than swarming. They shouldn't be able to access inventories faster than a stack inserter
• Bots have an internal temperature to their batteries which affects the efficiency of charging/discharging, as well as the rate the battery degrades. Lower duty cycles result in more efficiency and longer life. Bot batteries eventually wear out requiring replacement of the bot. Basically, add in some of the downsides real world batteries have. It's easy to insert into a roboport so it's only a minor inconvenience if bots become consumables, but adds resource upkeep in addition to power.
• Add a construction only roboport which is very cheap compared to the full logistics version. Allow construction bots to serve the player's inventory

Somewhat related, bots also dominate for mid/late game bug clearing/base expansion to make more space for solar panels. Just hopping forward with clusters of turrets (IE 8 laser turrets surrounding HV power pole) deployed by bots from your personal roboports dominates any other strategy. Cars are useful for the speed and inventory space, but all of the military hardware like tanks and rocket launchers are pointless once you start doing this. I have ~50 hours on the save I attached and haven't personally fired a shot at a bug in the last 20 hours despite clearing several hundred bug structures. I currently have 100 active construction robots from my inventory with an 80x80 area. So construction bots + laser turrets is broken OP too. Consider making turrets require ~30 seconds to boot up/apply targeting parameters/<insert flavor text> so you can't drop clusters in an active bug base and wreck it in seconds. Restrict or reduce effectiveness of repairs by bots on turrets being actively damaged.

[Engimage]

For radicals I wanna propose another mental exercise
Removing logistic network capabilities is actually quite easy and is described in achievement “Logistic embargo” - just disable recipes for requester and active provider chests. This is extremely easily modded but for some reason I fail to find such mod and mods are considered to be first player voice. And necessity of changes is usually judged by popularity of such mods.

Wube’s success was earned by their ability to reflect player voice in their product. I really hope they will stay on this path cause with latest posts and patches they are really walking on steep edges.