Friday Facts #225 - Bots versus belts (part 2)

[zOldBulldog]

I just came across this article, and TBH I can't make myself read 49 pages of replies. But I'd like to make a couple comments anyway.

1) The 0.16 Splitter enhancements were brilliant!
- I use the input priority all the time to clear ore deposits from places where I need to build something.
- The output priority had an even bigger impact for me, a complete mental shift when I have multiple belts of the same material. I find that I vastly prefer to shift materials to one side and always pull from it rather than balancing the lanes and pulling from every lane. Why? A couple of reasons: (A) It is easier to notice shortages and even to set alarms on - for example - an empty 4th belt of iron, (B) I have a lot of control over how much to pull: all that I can (with priority towards the exit), the excess (priority towards the belt), a half belt (sideways underground followed by rebalancing), up to half of what the belt carries (no priority).

2) I understand the thinking over bots. I do hope though that any "nerfing" will be done so that it affects play *after* the 1st rocket, where it really seems to matter, and not before.

3) Maybe a simple way to buff belts after the 1st rocket could be to allow "boxing/unboxing" by inserters, as a tech that is researched late in the game. That way fewer belts could carry more when the focus goes into scaling production. Just a thought, I personally don't think I care one way or the other. My enjoyment of the game comes from completely different things than being able to boast "I built a 1000 rockets per minute base".

[Maugan]

This post is intended to present a reasonable debuff to bots to bring them more inline with the thoroughput of belts. (As discussed on the blog)

In the real world there is a finite amount of radio frequency available to communicate on. Too many wireless routers close together and stuff gets laaaaaaagy.

To reflect this we limit the amount of wireless "traffic" that is allowed in an area, thus limiting the ratio of bots per chunk

Simplest implementation would be that roboports cannot be placed within close proximity of each other(eg. Within the logistic Halo of another roboport)

Each roboport can store just 100 bots and the player can specify the ratio of construction to logistic bots.

New research: increased roboport bandwidth, each step gives something like +50 bots per roboport. (infinite research progression)

New structure: charging station charges bots (and possibly player batteries) but doesn't provide extra logistical network coverage.

I would add the ability of players to carry logistic bots to fetch items for them from storage/provider chests.

I would include an option at world setup that turns bandwidth off for bot fans to keep their bot megabases as an option without bandwidth concerns.

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged into the bots vs belts topic.

[Meddleman]

Lock the thread while you're at it.

50 pages is... I'd say enough.

[Jap2.0]

Lock the thread while you're at it.

50 pages is... I'd say enough.

But it's not a full 50 pages!

[Koub]

Lock the thread while you're at it.

50 pages is... I'd say enough.

I'll lock it when people stop posting "bots vs belts new topics/posts"

[ssilk]

Hm. I would lock it at page 100.

[DeathMers]

Hm. I would lock it at page 100.

Achievement accepted!

[vidaper]

Have not read the 50 pages and I'm not a man of 1000 words.
Do not make bets easier. Make drones more complex.

Drones damaged by pollution? Repair stations will need to fly on?

[IceTDrinker]

Hey,

I just started the game and haven't got to bots yet (and I do know this topic is quite old).

But reading around I think one way to change this bot problem is to have a new end game as inted at by the devs : a second planet after the first one.

But the second planet would be less hospitable with some kind of haze for example that would damage/prevent the bots from working properly (some kind of EMI cloud or corrosive substance or whatever lore that would be plausible on an alien planet). And in order to make the bots work you would need some kind of air purifier/haze remover near your roboports to locally allow the bots to work. Making it consume lots of power/some rare crafted item would mean that roboports would not be suitable large scale because of power/said item shortage, or because it would generate a huge amount of pollution, really angrying the biters. But the use of bots would still be possible for specific tasks as long as the player put the time/resources/effort/planning into it.

But I guess that for super larger factories it would be possible to get rid of the haze cloud altogether because of over-production, so yeah, making the haze remover super duper hard to craft (i don't know maybe introduce a resource that only spawns 10 times on the planet for example) and difficult to maintain could be a way, so that having bots would mean there is a challenge to tackle that comes with it.

Cheers.

[Koub]

I just started the game and haven't got to bots yet (and I do know this topic is quite old).

With all due respect, your post seems to me like "I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'll give my opinion on it anyway". While there is no reason to censor your freedom of speech, I don't see how your arguments can be of any value.
Why not play the game, with bots, without bots, and really make yourself an opinion before diving advice on how to fix things that might not need to be fixed ?

[bobucles]

Don't go bullying the newbies, mods! Just smile and nod.

[IceTDrinker]

I just started the game and haven't got to bots yet (and I do know this topic is quite old).

With all due respect, your post seems to me like "I don't know what I'm talking about, but I'll give my opinion on it anyway". While there is no reason to censor your freedom of speech, I don't see how your arguments can be of any value.

Thank you for this wonderful welcome in the community, condescending and patronizing. You did not even try to show me why I would be wrong. You did not even try to reason. I tried to read and inform myself on the topic, I watched let’s plays. And I started to agree with both point of views on bots : loosing the mega base magic of conveyor belts for some, a way of doing things differently and more easily for others.

I liked the idea of a second base on another planet brought up by a dev in a FFF, so I figured I might as well give my point of view on the matter if nobody had the idea, because why not ? Plus my point of view is not completely for deleting bots (as pointed out by devs the system on their ends works well and got lots of attention) and some people love them, rather trying to get the best of both worlds : the first planet would be the current vanilla experience, the second planet a (nearly) fresh start because you would still be able to get resources but you would not be able to use bots right away, but eventually you would get there.

So yeah, you won’t see me around posting anything anymore, I’m not interested in joining a gaming community where yet again people can’t be civilized (apologies to all the other good people out there) I’ll just read stuff and won’t give my input anymore, I’m sick of having to put up with people who can’t behave decently even when newbies come up with silly ideas, and in my case I even tried to give arguments and insights as well as tying it to ideas from the devs.

[Oktokolo]

So yeah, you won’t see me around posting anything anymore, I’m not interested in joining a gaming community where yet again people can’t be civilized (apologies to all the other good people out there) I’ll just read stuff and won’t give my input anymore, I’m sick of having to put up with people who can’t behave decently even when newbies come up with silly ideas, and in my case I even tried to give arguments and insights as well as tying it to ideas from the devs.

The next community you try will surely be glad to get such a wise new member, who can solve the most complicated balancing issues of their favorite game without even having to really play it first.
Go ahead, try the same thing at any other community. But get some handkerchiefs first - just in case you feel that saltyness again...

[Pascali]

that would damage/prevent the bots from working properly (some kind of EMI cloud [...]And in order to make the bots work you would need some kind of air purifier/haze remover near your roboports to locally allow the bots to work. Making it consume lots of power/some rare crafted item would mean that roboports would not be suitable large scale because of power/said item shortage, or because it would generate a huge amount of pollution, really angrying the biters. But the use of bots would still be possible for specific tasks as long as the player put the time/resources/effort/planning into it.

up to the second planet (replacing the old one and lots of hours of work) nice ideas.

[vampiricdust]

Thank you for this wonderful welcome in the community, condescending and patronizing. You did not even try to show me why I would be wrong. You did not even try to reason. I tried to read and inform myself on the topic, I watched let’s plays. And I started to agree with both point of views on bots : loosing the mega base magic of conveyor belts for some, a way of doing things differently and more easily for others.

I liked the idea of a second base on another planet brought up by a dev in a FFF, so I figured I might as well give my point of view on the matter if nobody had the idea, because why not ? Plus my point of view is not completely for deleting bots (as pointed out by devs the system on their ends works well and got lots of attention) and some people love them, rather trying to get the best of both worlds : the first planet would be the current vanilla experience, the second planet a (nearly) fresh start because you would still be able to get resources but you would not be able to use bots right away, but eventually you would get there.

So yeah, you won’t see me around posting anything anymore, I’m not interested in joining a gaming community where yet again people can’t be civilized (apologies to all the other good people out there) I’ll just read stuff and won’t give my input anymore, I’m sick of having to put up with people who can’t behave decently even when newbies come up with silly ideas, and in my case I even tried to give arguments and insights as well as tying it to ideas from the devs.

Most people don't get logistic bots which come with their own nuance. He was quite civilized and I fully agree with Koub. You should play with bots yourself and experience them, then come back and we'll happy listen your views. There's a ton of people is thread who don't use bots but full of suggestions on how to nerf, make them worse, or take the fun out of them. I am avid bot user and have spent hundreds of hours playing with bots, your ideas are not new and have been suggested in many slightly different ways. Ultimately, you're saying nothing new, just more of the nerf bots for people who use them. Bots have been nerfed and nerfed for a long time. I think they've gone a hair too fair already with the insane research costs.

The bots are a high end technology, they're supposed to be good. They consume tons of power and resources which takes a great deal of time and work. You can research blue belts and make 25k blue belts for the cost of getting bots to a level that starts beating belts. Try bots out and come back with experience with them.

[Pascali]

Bots have been nerfed and nerfed for a long time. I think they've gone a hair too fair already with the insane research costs.

I think not. The build time for a solar field? It´s build up by bots in seconds. That´s another bad point about bots. Buildings build like this, have to be habe a addionally cost. Or and have 10% less production-speed, etc. And suggesions by him are quite good. It´s about gaming. Do you wan´t to have gaming fun, with work and puzzling to do. Or have the same setups everywhere. On cliffs, on every fabric-type. Bots can drive through the air - that´s a problem. It would be nice, if the game gets wider in the endgame. So both setups are useful - f.e. to 50% of the fabric-setups. So some fabrics only accept belt, some only bots, some both, and some both but with malus on the one or the other type.

[Oktokolo]

The build time for a solar field? It´s build up by bots in seconds.

And that exactly is what construction bots are intended to be like. They are there to make building blueprints a click-and-forget action and repair stuff without requireing the player to micromanage.
Construction bots are that much a QoL thing - i even use Nanobots to get a lesser version of them much earlier (and i combine it with Inserter Fuel Leech for a better burner tech experience).
But construction bots never where the target of all that bots vs. belts discussions anyway. They are about feasibility of belts for logistiscs use in the late game to megabase phases...

[Pascali]

Yes, i don´t like them. They shoud be nerft. And not be available before 200 hours of gameplay. In Minecraft there is a creative-mode for this kind of playstyle. But i mentioned them because of the allegedly build-malus of solar-engeryfields, which are needet for bots. The fields are build in seconds.

[Gergely]

Hm. I would lock it at page 100.

This is the 1000th post!

We are halfway there.