[0.17.x] Bob's Mods: General Discussion

[mexmer]

I don't see any discussion here yet of the assembler complexity limit being dropped. I know I saw some discussion on that in the other thread. Are there any plans solidified yet as far as whether you'll be keeping the item limits?

I have already stated somewhere in the 0.16 general discussion thread that I have already removed all ingredient count limits from all machines in my mod. I currently have no plans to add any back in, but it has been suggested that I make it an option in the settings.

question is, what will be then motivation to upgrade machines, and i'm not talking about speed, since we have modules and beacons for that. and old machines will take less power.

main issue with ingredient count limit was not that it existed, but that it was not properly communicated to player, therefore people rarely understood, why machine can craft some recipes while others not. (that's basegame problem, not yours mod).

but increasing ingredient count limit also servers as motivation to replace machine. but now ... what will be actually meaningfull upgrade? replace speed 0.5 machine with 1.0? but next upgrade? considering cost of higher tier machines and their crafting process ....

removing crafting recipe limits (input count), essentially reduces need to upgrade assembler.

and before somone starts that "input count doesn't imply higher tier recipe, therefore higher tier machine requirement", we've been there, on FFF thread for FFF announcing this change ... and i never thought this way.

i can see only one solution for this (from modding point of view), each tier of assembling machine has own crafting category, and recipes need to have set these categories accordingly ... but IMO that's too much hassle, still it does make at least some sense. crafting T5 product in zero tier machine doesn't

[ukezi]

question is, what will be then motivation to upgrade machines, and i'm not talking about speed, since we have modules and beacons for that. and old machines will take less power.

If you take a MK1 with .5 speed you need a lot more beacons and modules to reach max speed then with a MK5. At If you use that much modules the additional material for the Assembler is negligible. Power can be rebalanced. Besides Beacons take power too.

but increasing ingredient count limit also servers as motivation to replace machine. but now ... what will be actually meaningful upgrade? replace speed 0.5 machine with 1.0? but next upgrade? considering cost of higher tier machines and their crafting process ....

I use higher tier machines to get more out of existing setups or to match ratios in a nice way.

In vanilla there are very very few recipes that needed the ingredient count form MK3 machines. They where still used.

[bobingabout]

main issue with ingredient count limit was not that it existed, but that it was not properly communicated to player, therefore people rarely understood, why machine can craft some recipes while others not. (that's basegame problem, not yours mod).

This is why I think the idea of making it optional (a setting) to turn it back on is a good idea, I just haven't done it yet.

Anyway, what do you get?

Each tier has a higher speed
Each tier has a slightly better efficiency per cycle (Power consumption / speed)
Some also reduce pollution percentage (It's based on energy consumed)
Each tier also adds more module slots.

Your best use for the higher tiers is to fill the module slots with as much productivity as you can... or aim for 100%, then use beacons to increase the speed to the point where you reduce the cycle time to 1 tick.

Still, this is a "Grabbing at straws" justification, I've literally listed every pro to an increased level, which might not be that big of a motivation.

[anorganicbear]

question is, what will be then motivation to upgrade machines, and i'm not talking about speed, since we have modules and beacons for that. and old machines will take less power.

I have no clue what is technically possible, but one frustration I have in my current playthrough is matching tier with available recipe. For example, I have tier 2 assemblers, but can't produce tier 2 steam engines because they require too many ingredients. From a game design perspective, I think it would make sense to require higher tier assemblers to make higher tier items. Fun idea for another mod maybe?

[mexmer]

Module slots ... well that’s only reason to get them. So you can increase productivity (since that cannot be trasmited from beaconsif i remember correctly).

As for speed. Speed alone is not good enough incentive, you can even stay on mk1 until you get mk4, then swap and never build mk5, except new bases maybe, because that incentive doesn’t match cost.

Power effeciency is not issue, since at time you get them, you have either nuclear, or other way to have plentifull energy to simply not care if overall consumption per item is lower. Energy production lategame is cheap to expand.

If you add option to enable ingredient limits, it will be nice. Tbh. I would like to se ingredient limit imposed on electrolyser and chemicals too. But those rarely have recipes with 3 or more solids, and fluids are already limited by number of input fluid boxes.

[mexmer]

question is, what will be then motivation to upgrade machines, and i'm not talking about speed, since we have modules and beacons for that. and old machines will take less power.

I have no clue what is technically possible, but one frustration I have in my current playthrough is matching tier with available recipe. For example, I have tier 2 assemblers, but can't produce tier 2 steam engines because they require too many ingredients. From a game design perspective, I think it would make sense to require higher tier assemblers to make higher tier items. Fun idea for another mod maybe?

Yes it is posiible to split recipes in tiers, and make assemblers to only craft specific tiers.

Crafting machines and recipes have crafting categories, that’s how for example you can craft only certain recipes in bobs electronic assemblers.

[TRUEpicness]

You could make the mk1 assembler produce all tier 1 items(basic circuit board iron gears mk1 drills etc) and then the mk2 assembly machine which will do all tier 2 and 1 items plus mk3 assembly machine and so on

[bobingabout]

You could make the mk1 assembler produce all tier 1 items(basic circuit board iron gears mk1 drills etc) and then the mk2 assembly machine which will do all tier 2 and 1 items plus mk3 assembly machine and so on

Which means manually sorting out what can be crafted in where by introducing a lot of crafting categories, then which ones do you allow the player to build by hand?

[igorhgf]

About Science packs:

Would be possible to make a tech being able to research from different tiers of the same type of research?

example:
early game tech = tier 1 or 2 or 3 or 4
late-ish game tech = tier 3 or 4

So, if you already producing tier 3 science packs and want to research that old early game tech, it would consume your current science pack 3. Technically you would be wasting resources, but i think that's a fair trade of for the convenience of not having to build a lower tier science setup you already did on that game.

[bobingabout]

About Science packs:

Would be possible to make a tech being able to research from different tiers of the same type of research?

example:
early game tech = tier 1 or 2 or 3 or 4
late-ish game tech = tier 3 or 4

So, if you already producing tier 3 science packs and want to research that old early game tech, it would consume your current science pack 3. Technically you would be wasting resources, but i think that's a fair trade of for the convenience of not having to build a lower tier science setup you already did on that game.

that's not something you can really do due to base game limitations, you have to specify the exact item to use, and need that exact item to unlock research.

[morfledouille]

With 0.17 around the corner, and the planned science changes, it got me thinking about science packs in bob mods, how the science changes in .17 might affect them, and since i had nothing better to do this morning i decided to write a post about it.
This is not a request or even a suggestion, but rather a collection of ideas I had when playing bob’s mods, and how i’d like the recipes for bob’s science packs to be if i ever got around to making a science overhaul mod, which will in all likelihood never happen.
The basic idea is for the science packs to reflect the progression of your base as much as possible, while introducing new resources and materials for each new science pack. In the end when all science packs are produced, most resources and materials should be used in decent quantities, making Xk SPM bases a bit more interesting.
So here we go

Science pack 1 :
Not much to change here, SP1 introduces the basic resources iron and copper.

Science pack 2 :
The main problem of SP2 is not with itself but compared to SP3, the gap between the two in vanilla is already significant but in bob it’s a huge step (going from t0 circuit in SP2 straight to t2 circuit in SP3). To make the transition a bit easier, we could slightly buff SP2 and slightly nerf SP3.
There are two ways we can buff SP2 : First we can turn that grey belt into a yellow one, it introduces tin (with belt overhaul) which the player is going to need pretty soon for electronics anyway. Secondly we could add a third ingredient. This was considered in the .17 science changes in vanilla, and i think this could be a great idea.

Proposed recipe : 1x SP2 =
1x yellow inserter
1x yellow belt
1x iron pipe

Military Science pack :
Not much to say on this one, MSP should remain easy-ish to craft for biters heavy maps, for this reason i’m 100% behind the changes planned in .17 vanilla. MSP still introduces 3 new resources, steel, coal and stone.

Proposed recipe : 2x MSP =
1x piercing round magazine
1x grenade
2x walls

Science pack 3 :
As it stands now, SP3 introduces tin, lead and silicon, not to mention a whole lot of chemical processing. Ouch… To reduce the huge complexity spike between SP2 and SP3 we introduced tin and a third ingredient to SP2, now let’s see what we can actually change on SP3. The t2 circuit is the biggest headache in this science pack but it pretty much has to stay. However the battery has no immediate use, plus it will be used in the next science pack, which makes it feel a bit redundant. We could swap it for a solid fuel block, which is consistent with the planned changes in .17 vanilla. Lastly, a lot of people complain about that single bronze plate that stands out like a sore thumb, we swap that with bronze pipes, which are more in line with the “chemical” theme of the pack, plus it makes the pack a bit more expensive.

Proposed recipe : 1x SP3=
1x t2 circuit
1x engine
5x bronze pipes
1x solid fuel

Logistics Science Pack :
As the name implies, LSP should be a wake up call to upgrade your base’s logistics. Since the belt overhaul, blue belts are much harder to craft, introducing cobalt and aluminum, so it can be tempting to stay with red for longer, especially since science packs up to now are relatively cheap in resource quantity.
Well no longer ! this recipe is already quite expensive, requiring tons of steel. I would however like to replace the steel chest (which is a bit of a boring recipe) with rails, mirroring the planned changes for the .17 vanilla production pack, plus, it fits the logistics theme of the pack perfectly.

Proposed recipe : 2x LSP =
20x rails
1x blue filter inserter
1x blue belt
1x robot frame

Production Science Pack :
Here’s the big one. As it stands now the recipe for PSP is pretty underwhelming, in vanilla this is gonna change in .17, but the changes are not quite applicable for bob, so here is my idea.
Since PSP is suppose to be on the same “tier” as LSP, it makes sense that it mirrors what LSP is all about : upgrading your base. If LSP was all about upgrading logistics, PSP should be about upgrading your machines. LSP introduced two of the mid-tier metals, aluminium and cobalt, PSP should introduce zinc and nickel (in the form of brass and invar).
Luckily a lot of mid-tier structures in bob require those two metals, so making a production science pack out of those makes sense. However the catch is that buildings are very expensive, plus they require the previous tier, so the number of packs created by the recipe would have to go waaay up to compensate.
I haven’t done an in depth analysis on cost per pack so this recipe is to be taken with a grain of salt, but here is the general idea :

Proposed recipe : 10-20 PSP =
1x Assembling Machine 4
1x Boiler 3
1x Refinery 2
1x Big Electrical Pole 2

High-Tech Science Pack :
There’s a lot of cool stuff in that science pack already. The module is complex to craft and introduces gold, plus is a nice incentive to start putting modules in things if you haven’t started already. The battery 2 recipe is also fitting, as well as the obligatory t3 circuits. Finally I like that there are 5 ingredients, upping the logistics challenge a bit.
There are two things I would change : Firstly for a science pack that’s supposed to be high tech, the silicon carbide stands out as a “raw” material, i would replace it with a ceramic bearing. Secondly, the electrical engine is already used in LSP, which is not ideal, replacing it with something more “high-tech” would be nice, and if it can introduce another resource while we’re at it, it would be ideal.
There are of course other possibilities, but a t2 solar panel would fit the bill rather well, as it uses silver which isn’t used in a whole lot of recipes.

Proposed recipe : 2 HTSP =
3x t3 circuits
1x speed module 1
1x silicon bearing
1x t2 battery
1x t2 solar panel

Space Science Pack :
Here we are, the last science pack. It introduces the last two metals, titanium and tungsten, plus we get a nice recipe for the rocket fuel and a buffed t4 circuit as the control unit. The satellite also uses a bit of everything, albeit in low quantities.
All in all the “recipe” for the SSP is pretty good as it is. However there is one thing i would add : a t3 battery into the control unit. It makes sense thematically and the recipe is just really nice. There already are t3 batteries in the satellite, but in negligible quantities. Also i would consider adding another speed module, but that’s nitpicking.

Proposed recipe : 1 Rocket Control Unit :
2x t4 circuits
1x speed module 1
1x t3 battery
Rest of the rocket is unchanged.


There we go Thanks for reading

[BlueTemplar]

IMHO Bob's progression from SP2 to SP3 is in a way better than vanilla, thanks to the introduction of "SP2.5" : Bob's T2 circuits (requiring tin, lead and carbon).

[GrumpyJoe]

With 0.17 around the corner, and the planned science changes, it got me thinking about science packs in bob mods, how the science changes in .17 might affect them, and since i had nothing better to do this morning i decided to write a post about it.

I like your thoughts

In the same spirit, not asking for a change, just my thought on this. Thinking about this alot recently, since i added Madclown´s Science as well
Now i have absolutely no idea how a "Bob´s only" map works, since i always play with Angel´s combined, so I might be waaay off here.

What i never liked in logistics is making cobalt-steel, since it actually needs more steel than cobalt.
With Angels its 2 steel to 1 cobalt and steel is just more iron ,which are both already used in every belt before blue ones. With the grey ones enabled, its 4 tiers of belts to make, which is ok, but a bit redundant because grey and yellow both use iron
I´d like to get rid of either the inserter or the belt.
I´d favor the inserter, since its more complex with its use of circuits and because yellow inserter doesn´t need burner ones, so it should be less of the same (iron)

Now, there is the question of how to replace either of them.

Since it should still be 4 ingredience and we only have 3 ways of logistics (belt, bot and rail) its hard to choose which one to "favor" by getting the 4th ingredient.
Since bots dont work without a logistic zone, i´d say it should be something like Logistic Zone Expander. Or a Robochest.
If that could be MK1s or 2s i dont know, gotta balance materials used and complexity

What i like the most about your Production SP is the buildings and that you´d need to "rethink" abit in terms of how many you need of what.
No longer just increase AM numbers because the craft takes longer, when you get like 15 packs per craft.
Once you figured out how to balance SP output per tier, it kinda stays the same for every pack, its not that much of a challenge

[BlueTemplar]

If you haven't already, you should take a look at mexmer's ScienceCostTweaker Mod (and probably lovely santa's extension of it ?).

It's included in Sea Block, and I find it pretty well done !
(For instance it requires tin and lead plates for SP2.)

My only gripe with it is how it has some recipes that I consider to be pretty much redundant, especially for red sience :
Electromagnet Coils = Copper Wire
Electromagnet Core = Iron Stick (come on, the core of an electromagnet is literally an iron stick !)

[GrumpyJoe]

Thanks, i´ll have a look since i need a change anyway.
But this is totally offtopic, since its about balancing another mod

[BlueTemplar]

I wouldn't say that, as they have made modmods specific to Bob's !
(As has a significant part of the modding community - Sea Block being one of them - but still...)

[GrumpyJoe]

Just started a test map and played up to green, was curious what to expect.
take the ingredients with a grain of salt, as its just the basic reciepes, specially wood that i used for resin for cables.

But white circuits in military?
Gold in blue science? (should read 10, as i forgot to break down the one next to nitrogen) where silver is only later in production science

At least with Angel´s thats a no-go for me, as a reliable income in gold (direct sorting with crystals) comes at the same time as silver. Might be ok with seablock tho, cos getting ore is all the same.
I guess you´ll get used to it, but this is not really an alternative for me and still a totally differnt thing than talking about bobs tech and 0.17 rework

Thats SCTbyMexmer

msp.png (426.08 KiB) Viewed 6707 times

[BlueTemplar]

As someone that just got to blue science, I was afraid about the gold (because of all the excess lead - and nickel, but that's temporary I guess - from rubyte chunks sorting),
but it turned out fine (so far) :
I've now upgraded Crotinnium chunks to Crystals (which gives you 1 more copper and gold).
Chemical Refining is only 80 Blue (so 800 gold), I researched it and other blue techs (an additional 190 Blue = 1900 gold), but my gold stockpile didn't even had time to run out !

One of these is Advanced Ore Refining 3 (which gives you sorting to pure gold), but I don't think I'll set it up soon, considering the additional requirements of Stiratite and Rubyte Crystals and Hybrid Catalyst...
Not sure why you consider that to be so much easier than Crotinnium Crystals sorting ?

(BTW, you'll need plenty of gold anyway if you want to use modules as soon as they are available, in late Green era...)

And this is just continuing the logic of Angels (and Factorio itself) :
first you do manual crafting for X, then you automate X INefficiently, you use X to get a better process, and then automate X efficiently !

----

Anyway, these are just details... the point is that it would be nice if Bob's Science Packs were using Bob's ores -
But now that I'm thinking about it, maybe NOT so nice for the people playing with other Bob's mods *without* Bob's ores !
(So, yeah, maybe it's best to leave that to "4rd-party" modmods ?)

[mexmer]

If you haven't already, you should take a look at mexmer's ScienceCostTweaker Mod (and probably lovely santa's extension of it ?).

It's included in Sea Block, and I find it pretty well done !
(For instance it requires tin and lead plates for SP2.)

My only gripe with it is how it has some recipes that I consider to be pretty much redundant, especially for red sience :
Electromagnet Coils = Copper Wire
Electromagnet Core = Iron Stick (come on, the core of an electromagnet is literally an iron stick !)

electromagnet core is ferite stick, not iron stick. difference is that ferite stick has polarized domains, while iron stick doesn't.
yes you can make electromagnet with iron stick, but it will be terrible

anyways, original recipes are from uberwaffe. and i like them, so i didn't change them. i did some changes to military and hightech, and created new science packs for logistic (overrides bobs), bio (overrides angels exploration token) and also burner tech pack for aai.

also SCT has own intermediates for a reason, and that reason is, so other mods can modify ingredients for intermediates and leave science pack intact.
you can make recipe for coils that use angels wired copper as input for example (i'm not sure, if i did put that one in, but i have that option)

yes when you look at vanilla + sct, most recipes is rather plain and boring, but with other mods, it's different.

[BlueTemplar]

My only gripe with it is how it has some recipes that I consider to be pretty much redundant, especially for red sience :
Electromagnet Coils = Copper Wire
Electromagnet Core = Iron Stick (come on, the core of an electromagnet is literally an iron stick !)

electromagnet core is ferite stick, not iron stick. difference is that ferite stick has polarized domains, while iron stick doesn't.
yes you can make electromagnet with iron stick, but it will be terrible

Well, it's Red Science, what do you expect ?

also SCT has own intermediates for a reason, and that reason is, so other mods can modify ingredients for intermediates and leave science pack intact.
you can make recipe for coils that use angels wired copper as input for example (i'm not sure, if i did put that one in, but i have that option)

Ah, ok, this is a very good reason, never mind then !