The problem about mods

[sraw]

For a long time, I was playing on a stable version. Recently, I changed to the latest version.
And I found a problem about mods and factorio itself.

The problem is, mods often update according to the latest version and don't even fix bugs for the old versions. Well, old, but stable version.
Which means if I meet a bug with one mod on the stable version, then I am forced to switch to the latest version even though it is not stable at all.

So it causes that for the core players, or even for the newcomers who want to play with mods, the stable version is just meaningless as it has much more bugs in mods than in the experiment version.

I think the main issue is forwards compatibility. A mod created for 0.17.x cannot be used in 0.16.x, even partially. Actually, if you have an incompatible mod, you cannot even start the game, it will just crash. The only choice you have is to manually delete that mod on the disk.

I haven't touched creating a mod, so I don't know how difficult it is to do backport.

This is just from my experience, how do you guys think about this problem?

[Koub]

This is not Factorio related, but mod supporting game related. As long as mods and evolving games have existed, the issue you describe has existed. Solutions ? Pick one :
1) Play modded and deal with it
2) Stick to vanilla until the game is totally finished
3) Try to convince the modders to update the outdated version of their mods.
4) Remember that modders take from their personal free time to provide benevolently the mods they work on, and get back to 1 .

All this will settle down when the last stable Factorio version ever will be out and the devs get to another project, considering the game is done. At that time, you can expect mod makers to make a last effort, and then, you can play to your heart's content as modded as you want.

Remember : Factorio is not finished.

[Light]

Some things can't be easily remedied in older versions that are easily done so in newer ones.

It's also not logical to focus on past versions when the game is progressing forward to version 1.0 which everyone will inevitably be using when the time comes. Doing so increases the workload on the author to bugfix both the old stable version alongside the current, while also causing players to waste bandwidth patching a bug for a mod that's likely not even relevant to their version.

It's simply not feasible.

[sraw]

This is not Factorio related, but mod supporting game related. As long as mods and evolving games have existed, the issue you describe has existed. Solutions ? Pick one :
1) Play modded and deal with it
2) Stick to vanilla until the game is totally finished
3) Try to convince the modders to update the outdated version of their mods.
4) Remember that modders take from their personal free time to provide benevolently the mods they work on, and get back to 1 .

All this will settle down when the last stable Factorio version ever will be out and the devs get to another project, considering the game is done. At that time, you can expect mod makers to make a last effort, and then, you can play to your heart's content as modded as you want.

Remember : Factorio is not finished.

I truly understand that Factorio is still under development. And I am not complaining about modders as I do appreciate their efforts.

I just think that the compatibility of Factorio could be better so that even the 0.16.x version cannot run all the functionalities of new mods, but at least it can get benefits from the updates such as bug fixing.

Let's say in the future we will definitely meet 0.18.x version and at first, that version will be too unstable for a normal player to play. But the fact is that modders will still update their mods according to the unstable version. Which leaves 0.17.x alone.

To clarify, I feel OK with the current situation. All I think is that it may hurt many normal players. They want to play with mods, but meet bugs, and then search online, find that they have to switch to experiment version. In this case, they may just say "OK, I just give up this mod." which may reduce the lifecycle of this fantastic game. What a shame!

[Deadlock989]

There was a year between the first 0.16 stable release and the first 0.17 experimental. A year.

You don't seem to understand that you are playing a beta anyway.

You say "I just think the compatibility could be better". How? How could it be "better"? By never changing things? I don't think you really understand what you're saying.

[Loewchen]

Let's say in the future we will definitely meet 0.18.x version and at first, that version will be too unstable for a normal player to play. But the fact is that modders will still update their mods according to the unstable version. Which leaves 0.17.x alone.

But it doesn't leave 0.17 users alone, it leaves them with all the mods created for 0.17. You cannot decide to not update the game but expect to get updated mods that depend on the updated game. Mods are updated for a new game version because the new mod API allows them to do new things and requires them to do old things differently.

[Ghoulish]

Although I don't know exact numbers I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people stay on experimental for the very reason you say, Factorio sets a high standard for stable, it's bug free™, experimental may crash from time to time (though rarely for me), however, I believe most people will stick with it because the devs release a whole bunch of neat stuff there. Not least of which, bug fixes.

Which leads us on to a potentially large player base on experimental, what % of the player base uses MODs? A wild guess for me would say over 50%? And because (and it's with deepest sincerity I say this) The MOD authors here are on the ball like a pack of rabid doggies, and fix or update their MODs very smartlyI think it unreasonable for MOD authors to maintain code for various releases, where's bobingabout? I wonder how many lines of code his suite of MODs has?

I see the issue, I don't know of a solution - more often stables? I know zip about game development though

[MeduSalem]

[...]

You really don't seem to know how software development life cycles work.

Most of the updated mods can only function because the experimental base game has entirely new modding functionality or because the experimental version fixed bugs related to modding that existed in previous versions which caused certain mods to have bugs.

During early access of a product this is usually a mutual progression. Realistically you can't have one without the other.


That said hypothetically it would be possible to maintain several branches of development stages but neither the game devs nor the modders have the time and resources for that because it usually would mean tons of workarounds to address lacking functionallity or bugs in older branches and there is no real point in it either if all the effort then gets dumped anyway once the next major release is out.

That is something only huge software companies commit themselves to, like Microsoft or Google who commit themselves to maintain older operating systems throughout the software's lifecycle. They can afford it because they have like 100k people working on all their projects. But even they eventually cut ties with old stuff if it doesn't pay off anymore or if it becomes technically impossible.


Just update to the experimental version and the latest versions of mods and be glad that the Factorio devs are well known to have experimental releases that are more stable and bug-free than what most other game companies call a stable release.

[FuryoftheStars]

This is not Factorio related, but mod supporting game related. As long as mods and evolving games have existed, the issue you describe has existed. Solutions ? Pick one :
1) Play modded and deal with it
2) Stick to vanilla until the game is totally finished
3) Try to convince the modders to update the outdated version of their mods.
4) Remember that modders take from their personal free time to provide benevolently the mods they work on, and get back to 1 .

All this will settle down when the last stable Factorio version ever will be out and the devs get to another project, considering the game is done. At that time, you can expect mod makers to make a last effort, and then, you can play to your heart's content as modded as you want.

Remember : Factorio is not finished.

I truly understand that Factorio is still under development. And I am not complaining about modders as I do appreciate their efforts.

I just think that the compatibility of Factorio could be better so that even the 0.16.x version cannot run all the functionalities of new mods, but at least it can get benefits from the updates such as bug fixing.

Let's say in the future we will definitely meet 0.18.x version and at first, that version will be too unstable for a normal player to play. But the fact is that modders will still update their mods according to the unstable version. Which leaves 0.17.x alone.

To clarify, I feel OK with the current situation. All I think is that it may hurt many normal players. They want to play with mods, but meet bugs, and then search online, find that they have to switch to experiment version. In this case, they may just say "OK, I just give up this mod." which may reduce the lifecycle of this fantastic game. What a shame!

Keep in mind that often when the devs update the game, they are adding/removing functionality and even renaming things. From the dev perspective, they'd also have to update the past stable version with these changes in order to keep backward compatibility of mods which would completely defeat the purpose of an experimental branch.

From a modder perspective, this means they'd either have to keep installed multiple versions of the game, or be constantly uninstalling/reinstalling, even downloading (Steam) the game. Just because something works in one version does not mean it'll work in another. Even then, maybe some of the bugs they have can't be fixed in the older version because the new functionality/bugfix added in the experimental is what allowed them to solve it.

I, for one, considering this is not a job and you don't get paid for it, am not willing to devote large amounts of my time maintaining multiple copies of the game, and with the limited bandwidth I have at home, am not going to be constantly setting Steam to download different versions of the game so I can make a change and then test to make sure it actually works for that version. As such, I do not expect this of others, either.

The game is still under development, I know you know this. But I think what the devs here are doing with the allowing folks to stay on past stable versions while having opt in experimental branches is fairly unique? I don't do early access much, so can't say for sure, but this is the only one I've seen like this. Every other early access one I've seen is when they update, you are updated with no option to opt out or go back. It's like being forced on the experimental branch, almost.

(I'm trying to find the right words to get some final thoughts across and I think I'm failing.) If you're unwilling to play the experimental because you don't want the new new bugs, crashes, lost factories, etc, I completely understand. Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ignore the presence of the experimental branch, just knowing that its presence means that further development is being done and that at some point a new stable version will be released for you to be able to upgrade to. At that time, you'll be able to get all of these new features and bugfixes. If you want them sooner, then consider opting in to experimental, but be prepared for the other issues that this brings with it.

[gargan]

... it is not stable at all.

What makes you think that the most up-to-date experimental version is not stable at all? In my opinion, based on countless hours playing, the stability of the most recent versions rivals most (if not all) AAA titles.

[eradicator]

I haven't touched creating a mod, so I don't know how difficult it is to do backport.

Difficulty? Meh. Depends on lots of things. For some mods you can probably change the version tag and they work. For other features i have waited *years* for the devs to implement new modding interfaces to even make them possible to mod at all, which makes them impossible to backport even if i wanted. And do i want? No. Why would i waste time on that? I haven't reviced a single "Thank you" ever for any of my mods. So as far as i'm concerned i make them for myself, which means the latest experimental version. If you want to pay me a decent hourly rate i'll be happy to do all the backports you want. If you want free stuff you either take what you get or you learn to do it yourself.

[slippycheeze]

I truly understand that Factorio is still under development. And I am not complaining about modders as I do appreciate their efforts.

I just think that the compatibility of Factorio could be better so that even the 0.16.x version cannot run all the functionalities of new mods, but at least it can get benefits from the updates such as bug fixing.

As a developer: this is a huge burden, and you are vastly underestimating the time-cost of compatibility. Several companies I have worked at go to extreme lengths to ensure that cross-compatibility isn’t hard to achieve - relatively speaking - and that it is also fairly easy to know where compatibility issues might come from. Much, much easier than the job Wube would have doing the same for their game, despite a few zeros difference in size.

In practice the only way you are going to see an environment where mods are compatible in the way you are describing is to have a dead modding API - as in, so dead it is already in the ground and never used. You couldn’t keep it over minor version changes in 0.17, let alone big ones like the fluid system or pollution math.

(I'm trying to find the right words to get some final thoughts across and I think I'm failing.) If you're unwilling to play the experimental because you don't want the new new bugs, crashes, lost factories, etc, I completely understand. Perhaps a better way to look at this is to ignore the presence of the experimental branch, just knowing that its presence means that further development is being done and that at some point a new stable version will be released for you to be able to upgrade to. At that time, you'll be able to get all of these new features and bugfixes. If you want them sooner, then consider opting in to experimental, but be prepared for the other issues that this brings with it.

If I can, I think the short version is: if you want stable, don’t update your mods, or your game.

You can’t have stable *and* updates. Pick one.

[sraw]

Well, I've never talked about this in any other game. The main reason I talk about this in factorio is that it looks like a classic programmers' game. Not only the idea but also the "stable"-"experiment" style.

The difference is, mostly for a product, all the people provide maintenance for the stable branch, and create plugins(Which are virtually the same as mods to games) for the stable branch. And the experiment branch is truly only for experiments. After new features have been tested well, they will be merged into stage branch and then after regression testing, they will be finally merged into the stable branch.

So it looks like I somehow misunderstood the structure of factorio's branches. It is more like a roadmap, and the stable version is more like a milestone during the development.

I agree with all you guys' replies, this is too hard and too costly to maintain compatibility. And finally, I have to clarify that I've said I feel just OK about the current situation. But I believe many players(I guess over 50%?) don't even know the existence of the experiment branch. They just buy the game, open the game, see that "Mods" button, click it, choose some popular mods, and then play.

[FuryoftheStars]

It is more like a roadmap, and the stable version is more like a milestone during the development.

I think that's a great way to look at it.

But I believe many players(I guess over 50%?) don't even know the existence of the experiment branch. They just buy the game, open the game, see that "Mods" button, click it, choose some popular mods, and then play.

Yeah, that's probably true. But what else can the devs do? They clearly state that it's early access, they have news posts in Steam and on their forums for each update, and at the bottom of each one they have this:

You can get experimental releases by selecting the 'experimental' beta branch under Factorio's properties in Steam.

Use the automatic updater if you can (check experimental updates in other settings) or download full installation at http://www.factorio.com/download/experimental.

[Jap2.0]

I'm going to go a different direction here: how frequently do you run across major issues in stable versions of mods? As previously stated, 0.16 was stable for over a year, so if an issue isn't fixed in that time, it's very likely that (1) it's very rare/difficult to reproduce, (2) it's nigh impossible to fix in that version of the game, (3) the mod was in very active or early development and changing majorly anyway, and/or (4) the author doesn't have sufficient time to properly maintain the mod (or is lazy) - in which case it getting fixed at all may be unexpected.

[factodev]

Well I find 0.17 very stable even with mods, I guess everyone has a differing opinion on this because as a game evolves and grows you are always going to get conflicts, especially when you add mods to the mix.

I quite the fact you have to "tinker" with your own game setup. But maybe that is just me.

[BlueTemplar]

The problem is, mods often update according to the latest version and don't even fix bugs for the old versions. Well, old, but stable version.
Which means if I meet a bug with one mod on the stable version, then I am forced to switch to the latest version even though it is not stable at all.

Sometimes, changing just the game version in the .json is enough to make the mod work.
Of course, it won't work if the bugfix depended on some 0.17 feature, or if there was a big modding interface change pre-bugfix.

Also, as Deadlock989 already mentioned, 0.16 stable has been available for a while.
Even the latest 0.16 stable was released 8 months before the first 0.17 experimental !

[...]
It's also not logical to focus on past versions when the game is progressing forward to version 1.0 which everyone will inevitably be using when the time comes. Doing so increases the workload on the author to bugfix both the old stable version alongside the current, while also causing players to waste bandwidth patching a bug for a mod that's likely not even relevant to their version.
[...]

Some mod authors do continue to update their mods for older versions of the game :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/long-reach/downloads
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/CJs_QoL_R ... /downloads
Note though that mod authors are dis-incentivized to do that, due to the mod website/server poor handling of that situation :
viewtopic.php?f=189&t=66989&p=408610
viewtopic.php?f=182&t=70731&p=429474

I also don't understand your complaint about bandwidth, AFAIK the game won't download a more recent patch for an older game version ?

Although I don't know exact numbers I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people stay on experimental for the very reason you say, Factorio sets a high standard for stable, it's bug free™, experimental may crash from time to time (though rarely for me), however, I believe most people will stick with it because the devs release a whole bunch of neat stuff there. Not least of which, bug fixes.

Which leads us on to a potentially large player base on experimental, what % of the player base uses MODs? A wild guess for me would say over 50%? And because (and it's with deepest sincerity I say this) The MOD authors here are on the ball like a pack of rabid doggies, and fix or update their MODs very smartlyI think it unreasonable for MOD authors to maintain code for various releases, where's bobingabout? I wonder how many lines of code his suite of MODs has?

I see the issue, I don't know of a solution - more often stables? I know zip about game development though

I very much doubt that. I've been though the numbers several times now, and I'd guess that :
- Most players don't play experimental
- Even less players play mods.
Of course, the main issue depends on how you even define "players" :
Using "game owners" is probably too extreme of a position, I doubt that Wube (&modders) should care about the players that tried the game, and then decided it clearly wasn't for them (but haven't bothered / couldn't refund it).
But where one does draw the line for what a "real" player is ? One connection per year ? Per month ? Per week ? To the game itself, Steam, mod portal, the forums, or the unofficial community places like Reddit, Discord, IRC ?

From a modder perspective, this means they'd either have to keep installed multiple versions of the game, or be constantly uninstalling/reinstalling, even downloading (Steam) the game. Just because something works in one version does not mean it'll work in another.

This feels more like an incentive for the modder to stay on stables ?

[eradicator]

From a modder perspective, this means they'd either have to keep installed multiple versions of the game, or be constantly uninstalling/reinstalling, even downloading (Steam) the game. Just because something works in one version does not mean it'll work in another.

This feels more like an incentive for the modder to stay on stables ?

I can only speak for myself, but i started modding beacause i wanted "moar featurez" and vanilla couldn't satisfy my hunger. I.e. the very reason i became a modder in the first place contradicts "staying on stable". Keeping several parallel installs is quite well supported by the game though, so unless a modder has serious space restraints the "installation" part isn't a problem, but that doesn't make all the other major problems any easier at all. For a modder opting out of experimental is like building a house with your bare hands - you know that tools exist to do the job properly, but you handicap yourself by not using any.

[BlueTemplar]

I can understand that - more for modders than for players, see :
viewtopic.php?p=445740#p445740