Version 0.17.60

[lacika2000]

but you could also wait for robots to fiddle with big design or deconstruct older design. ( which gives a motivation to setup blue science this is how it was when i started and it pushed me/felt rewarding to setup oil for them.)

True, Looks at his 2168 hours of playtime on steam, I could do that, but I know from experience that's not very fun for me, and actually was the main reason I'd quit Factorio for long periods of time before I got good at beelining bots. Even to this day I'll still just stop playing for several days if I can't get bots quickly enough after starting a new map for whatever reason, I hate having to deconstruct large amounts of stuff by hand, it's infuriatingly tedious to me

There are mods for a quicker start giving you some bots from the get-go... I use one of these now, as I am going for higher science pack per minute bases on fresh maps, and indeed want to avoid the duplication tedium.

[xfir01]

True, Looks at his 2168 hours of playtime on steam, I could do that, but I know from experience that's not very fun for me, and actually was the main reason I'd quit Factorio for long periods of time before I got good at beelining bots. Even to this day I'll still just stop playing for several days if I can't get bots quickly enough after starting a new map for whatever reason, I hate having to deconstruct large amounts of stuff by hand, it's infuriatingly tedious to me

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/FasterStart

[mmmPI]

but you could also wait for robots to fiddle with big design or deconstruct older design. ( which gives a motivation to setup blue science this is how it was when i started and it pushed me/felt rewarding to setup oil for them.)

True, Looks at his 2168 hours of playtime on steam, I could do that, but I know from experience that's not very fun for me, and actually was the main reason I'd quit Factorio for long periods of time before I got good at beelining bots. Even to this day I'll still just stop playing for several days if I can't get bots quickly enough after starting a new map for whatever reason, I hate having to deconstruct large amounts of stuff by hand, it's infuriatingly tedious to me

You make valid point, deconstructing stuff is painfull , and it should impact more the beginner player, i was serious when i wrote about rolling deconstruction bot like the klonan's mod modified again.

But i temper that by : 1)new players won't build massive thing from the start, 2) it's easier to advise for mod to seasoned players rather than new 3) veterans players should plan in advance and don't really need to deconstruct or they'd know they can get robots before trying some large scale design.4) It allows for players to focus one step at a time ( which is better for new player, but could also reduce freedom of action for veterans )

I do personnally often use bots at the start, but when i do i find them too slow, i am tempted to also use instant blueprint, and start with a few electric engine too, and then when i forgot an item somewhere i quickly get it via command, and well i am not a good example

( or a good example of why it's nice to have someone else set some part of the rules of the game sometimes; most of the map i played the most were those i didn't use easier start, or when i have a very hard challenge that i could still play with all cheat and still enjoy puzzle ).

[BlueTemplar]

It is harder to make robots than blue science, and as long as roboports require Advanced Circuits it always will be. And now with this change you literally make all the components for blue science while making construction robots.

No it's not?
[...]

Of course it is. There's no question that bots have been harder to make than blue science since at least 0.16...

Also, remember that early bots are slow, bot frames take a long time to craft, and personal roboports required blue science since at least 0.16.

Additionally, I'm worried about the delay of bots

What delay?

Construction bots require:

Roboport

• Advanced Circuit

• gears

• steel

Construction Bot

• Battery
  
  • Sulfur + water
  • Iron
  • Copper

• Electric Engine
  
  • Engine
  • Electronic Circuit

• Electronic Circuit

• Steel

It is harder to make robots than blue science, and as long as roboports require Advanced Circuits it always will be. And now with this change you literally make all the components for blue science while making construction robots.

This delay :

So, doing some math about how much bots are delayed in practice :

75+50+50+75+100 = 350 blue science = 175 sulfur + 525 red circuits (+ 350 engines) = (2625 + 10500) gas + (iron,copper,coal,water) = 29 166.. oil (assuming rushing, therefore using basic oil processing : worst case scenario)

1 roboport = 45 red circuits (+iron) = 45*2/2*20 gas = 900 gas = 900/45*100 oil = 2000 oil (assuming basic oil processing)
So that 350 blue science is 14.5833.. roboports worth in oil.

1 conbot = 1 flying robot frame (+iron, copper) = 2 batteries + 1 electric engine unit (+iron, copper) = 2*20 sulfuric acid + 15 lube (+iron, copper) = 40/10 sulfur + 15 heavy oil (+water) = (4/2*15=)30 gas + 15 heavy oil (+water) = 30 gas + (15/25*100=)60 oil -(60/100*55=)33 gas -(60/100*45=)27 light oil = 60 oil -3 gas -27 light
(assuming advanced oil processing this time, as cannot otherwise)
So that 350 blue science is 468.11.. conbots worth in oil.

(Again, worst case scenario... I guess that I should redo the math for the blue science and roboports while switching to advanced oil processing mid-way and assuming cracking?)

----

[...]
Well, it’s not like the devs haven’t used mods before to try out different features with the community. Some have even released mods that undo official changes: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Dont_lose ... ngredients

Thank you for posting this, I had missed that mod !

[DanGio]

As a complement to the previous post, consider how Nefrums gets bots at the 90 minutes mark in his 1st 17.60 run from yesterday :
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/460164032?t=02h04m41s

Before 17.60, he managed to get them at 1h10m, so there's a consequent difference. But he could probably manage to get them sooner in future runs... we'll see.

[xfir01]

So less time than it'll take an average player to set up batteries and electric engines. And you're up in arms over this? Ok.

[Serenity]

For me early bots aren't that appealing. While it does get annoying to build smelter columns by hand, I'm fine with doing other stuff manually. And bots suck when you get them first. They need a few levels of robot speed research to be really useable, which also needs blue science

[Deadlock989]

I think you should actually try it before you bag it. If you want you can still go the old way, however everything I have seen and experienced leads me to believe that these are a big step up.

No. It was already unlikely that I would ever want to play a vanilla game again, but now I almost certainly never will. I have zero interest in one product in, one product out mechanics. It's the essence of triviality. If the problem was that noobs can't tell the difference between a machine which isn't doing anything because it doesn't have anything to do, and a machine which isn't doing anything because output is blocked, then the solution was to address that interface problem, not wreck every save game in existence and turn oil processing into something with half the complexity of smelting with coal.

This is one of the best games ever made. I would put it in the top five of all time, easily, maybe top three. But I can't help feeling that it just got slightly smaller.

[RocketManChronicles]

This is one of the best games ever made. I would put it in the top five of all time, easily, maybe top three. But I can't help feeling that it just got slightly smaller.

I can't help but feel like binning this game in with World of Warcraft. The game was engaging, difficult, required time, thought, and analysis. Then the developers got greedy, wanted to cater to "new players." So, the leveling system was reworked, experience gained increased, and combat simplified, all to tailor to a "New Player Experience." Sounds familiar? It certainly is the same route, one I wish Factorio does not go down. This is one step in that direction. Simplifying the gameplay that has enticed me for over three years so that new players can come in and easily be handed the solutions....

What is next now? I have already stated earlier, how close we are to not having Light Oil or Heavy Oil, each are used in one recipe now. Why have them, just make everything from Petroleum Gas at this point. And then that is just a fluid conversion 1-1, so why even bother doing that? Just make everything from Crude Oil (like Flamethrower Ammo), and then the New User Experience only has to manage one fluid everywhere, the answer to all puzzles solved by a Pumpjack. To achieve this? Three changes, just like in this release. Make three changes, and it's all gone.

1. Change all recipes to require Crude Oil
2. Eliminate Light and Heavy Oil, Petroleum Gas, Advanced Oil Processing, Lubricant, Refinery, Chemical Plant, Coal Liquefaction
3. Profit = "New Player Experience"

Seriously, I am afraid Factorio will be just like WoW, dumbed down to cater to the least common denominator. That is how WoW went from 15 million players down to 2 million in three Expansion Packs. The hard work to reach high levels became super easy and took 1/10th the time and effort. And the hard work it takes to accomplish launching a rocket in Factorio will be lost in memory of the "good ole days" when you actually had to figure puzzles out and not be handed solutions.

[Jürgen Erhard]

Supremely disappointed that you went through with these changes. It's like you completely ignored all the valid criticism of it in the two massive threads discussing it. You were dead set on making SOME change to oil processing because you had this misguided belief that there was something wrong with the way it worked before, any evidence to the contrary be damned. I'll be keeping my game at 0.17.59 until you decide to revert this change.

Another step (and a disruptive one, my 0.17.60 update map stopped everything… I know, I should have followed dev since it *is* a beta) in the road to "make it simple and easier for people who aren't actually the core audience"

[Jürgen Erhard]

It will be ok. The game design is not to please extremists, like speed runners or megabasers. The majority of normal and new players will not complain and may even appreciate the changes. I now, I have played with oilchanges mod.

Speed runners will pretty surely like it since anything that simplifies speeds up play.

But I'm not sure the devs have *ANY* idea who their core audience is.

[Jürgen Erhard]

If you aren't against mods: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Pre0-17-60Oil

I'm not against mods in general, I'm against mods that fix bad design decisions.

That is pretty good then. You will have to play the game as it is designed. After a playthrough you will see that professional game designers know a tad more about game design then game consumers.

"professional game designers". Define that. What makes a "professional game designer"? AFAIK, none of the devs are either experienced games designers or went to some game design school. They. Are. Winging. It.

[Moderated by Koub]

[Jürgen Erhard]

I'll just mention that the only real use for light oil was making efficient solid fuel previously. How much of it did you really spend for flamethrower?

In the now broken map I'm currently playing, I use light oil only for flamethrowers (okay, and for cracking to Petroleum).

[Serenity]

Flamethrowers don't consume much oil though. There is far, far more oil in the tanks and pipes than the flamethrowers fire because the pipes will fill instantly.

[Klonan]

"professional game designers". Define that. What makes a "professional game designer"?

Well, I would say getting paid to design games makes someone a 'professional games designer',
And since Factorio has sold nearly 2 million copies and over 98% positive reviews, I would say there is some experience in the team about game design.

[Koub]

Okay This is enough, pissed moderator alert.

I have waited as long as possible before starting aggressive moderation because I always favor liberty of speech and letting people contribute to the debate, and I know that on such contrevorsial subjects, passional people can get quite heated.

I have seen the debate starting from quite measured and polite drift towards aggressiveness, bashing and disrespect, and this is unacceptable, especially on a forum I'm responsible of moderating.

So now, be warned, I will mercilessly hack and slash through anything that can look, even marginally, like denigrement, bashing, or whatever bad behaviours the anonymity helps groing on the Internet. Whatever is not a constructive contribution will be moderated by me, no matter if it's pro or con the changes.

[maniak1349]

With those changes finally out I hope this overexaggerated drama will soon be over. Hang in there, Wube!

[RocketManChronicles]

Flamethrowers don't consume much oil though. There is far, far more oil in the tanks and pipes than the flamethrowers fire because the pipes will fill instantly.

Unless you are playing on a Deathworld Marathon map that has the difficulty turned up even more beyond what Deathworld defaults to. My Flamethrower Turrets are almost constantly firing; and since Light Oil has a damage buff, I am burning through Light Oil very quickly. The problem now, is that since I do not have AOP researched yet, my reserves of Light Oil are diminishing because the BOP does not supply it. Now I have to reroute Crude Oil to the Perimeter Wall until I unlock Light Oil again. Frustrating for an existing map, yes; New map, frustrating to not utilize the Flamethrower Turret to its advantage early enough.

[jodokus31]

Flamethrowers don't consume much oil though. There is far, far more oil in the tanks and pipes than the flamethrowers fire because the pipes will fill instantly.

Unless you are playing on a Deathworld Marathon map that has the difficulty turned up even more beyond what Deathworld defaults to. My Flamethrower Turrets are almost constantly firing; and since Light Oil has a damage buff, I am burning through Light Oil very quickly...

That's interesting. I play Deathworld Marathon settings, too. I have like 300% Oil left and its absolutely no problem in terms of light oil for the flame turrets. But maybe my pollution is not so severe, because the attacks are far less (92% evo)

[FuryoftheStars]

Flamethrowers don't consume much oil though. There is far, far more oil in the tanks and pipes than the flamethrowers fire because the pipes will fill instantly.

Unless you are playing on a Deathworld Marathon map that has the difficulty turned up even more beyond what Deathworld defaults to. My Flamethrower Turrets are almost constantly firing; and since Light Oil has a damage buff, I am burning through Light Oil very quickly. The problem now, is that since I do not have AOP researched yet, my reserves of Light Oil are diminishing because the BOP does not supply it. Now I have to reroute Crude Oil to the Perimeter Wall until I unlock Light Oil again. Frustrating for an existing map, yes; New map, frustrating to not utilize the Flamethrower Turret to its advantage early enough.

I think this would also be a potential issue once you do unlock LO... you now have to wait for your turrets to completely empty themselves of the crude before you can pump in light due to the anti-mixing....

I know, small issue, but still.