[MOD 0.14-1.0]Helmod: Assistant to plan its base.

[BlueTemplar]

BTW, % work great when you then want to copy-paste whole chains into others :

[Helfima]

@ RickJS: It was a bug, we couldn't edit this technology
Version: 0.9.18
Date: 30. 12. 2019
Features:
- Added module selection unit (selector or priority)
- Added remove button on preference priority
- Added summary for block (icon near icon for pin panel)
Changes:
- Changed caches use global data
- Changed some tooltip
Bugfixes:
- Fixed power of sub-block
- Fixed technology recipe

[kenlon]

BTW, % work great when you then want to copy-paste whole chains into others :

Okay, this has been bugging me since I first saw the option - what, exactly, is the point of being able to set a percentage on a recipe in helmod? It's obviously something that is used by people, but I can't for the life of me figure out *why*.
I must be missing something - can someone enlighten me?

[Helfima]

100% corresponds to 100% of production for the previous lines and some time you don't want produce all in a line

100%.png (166.72 KiB) Viewed 7940 times

for example, to produce petrolium gas you want produce with 2 lines, that's what it is for

[BlueTemplar]

Hi, the first post seems outdated ?

[nosports]

hello,

is it possible to have the amount of items listed in stacks ????

ie : 200 Iron-plates are 2 stacks ?

[Helfima]

@BlueTemplar: yes it's outdated, not enough time
@nosports: what are you want to do with stack information?

[gogeo]

How do I calculate in Helmod the number of Science lab buildings required for my 100/sec science packs? I've had no luck doing it, everything I try makes it add the recipe for crafting a science lab, not quite what I want

You must select a technology, for sample "Worker robot speed" (infinite) (red)
Change production field by 100/2000 = 0.05 (yellow)
And see the number lab (green)
lab_number.PNG

Hello, I try to compute same things with Helmod 0.10.10 but with results - can you please shorty help on it?

I just want to know how much stuff I need to fully saturate 2-3 labs

Thanks

[Helfima]

select computing by factory and set the value at 2-3
the first recipe use 2-3 factory

[gogeo]

select computing by factory and set the value at 2-3
the first recipe use 2-3 factory

Maybe a bug? I still have no values...

Thanks

[Helfima]

oh sure it's a bug

[kinnom]

the boiler fuel usage shown is way off

[GluAp]

Hello Helfima.

First of all: Thank you very much for this mod. I have been using it essentially right after finishing my first playthrough. And it has been in every playthrough I ever did since then.
I have to say that in the beginning I had some difficulties understanding every feature, but I believe I figured out most of it on my own by now. And thanks to your continuous work on the mod it has been getting easier to use.

However I'd like to make a small suggestion for improvement.

Short version:

0. Please abandon the concept of "Sub-Blocks". Mainly in your head ^^
1. Stop calculating Blocks and dividing them into Sub-Blocks via "maximum assembling machines per Block"
2a. Include an option to choose and design a Block however the user likes and only link it to the production line by the quantity of Blocks and not directly by the quantity of items
2b. Include an option where the player can input a static number to set a quantity for a certain Production Block

Ok. "0" needs a bit more explaining. Especially because if you think about it, 1-2 more or less will result from applying "0" to this mod.


But let's start with the status quo:

status quo.png (319.33 KiB) Viewed 7431 times

What do we see:
We see a production Block "Green Circuits" here. It shows us a lot of numbers. For every entry we see two numbers at least. We can see that this Block has the quantity of 5. Ok, I get it. I need 5 "Green Circuits" Blocks to make 150 Green Circuits. But wait? Now do I need 4*5=20 assemblers or do I need 20*5=100 assemblers?
And what is the meaning 4 or 17 Beacons?

Can you identify the problem I'm having?
There's something that doesn't make any sense with all these numbers.

But let's take a look in how I think, helmod works.
It's main idea is a split between Production Line and Production Block. They both interact. They form a (mathematical) relation.

The Production Block wil always take some inputs and convert them to outputs, according to the recipe the player choses. Furthermore you can choose additional, (in-)dependent recipes to interact with other recipes. Still, the Block, when you look at it from the outside, will have inputs and some outputs. When looking from the inside of the Block you will see that there usually are in fact more items, that will be produced and be used inside the Block. Items inside the Block that can't be seen from the outside of the Block will be in balance - some will be produced and used completly. Well - that's the whole idea of helmod. Have recipes chained together, have (perfect) ratios, get what you need.

The Production Block's internal view will be determined by the recipes, the amount of input or output items or the number of factories the player chooses. Usually the player can't set all the variables. For example the player can't choose to make 1000 iron plates from 1 iron ore, because there is no recipe with that balance.
The Block will calculate the missing and mathematically dependent numbers. It will show: input/output/internal items, needed machinery, needed energy and more.

But what is the difference between Production Line and Production Block?
To be honest, it is kind of hard to grasp in theory. As far as I understand, the Production Line essentially is a list of (un-/linked) Production Blocks that only recognizes the outside view of those Blocks.
It won't show the internal items of connected Production Blocks, nor will it show the machinery needed for each Production Block to do its job. I'd say its function is to allow the player to implement new recipes in a new abstraction layer, allowing for better overview for the whole base. For example, there is no recipe in the game to directly fabricate Green Circuits out of iron ore and copper ore. But the Production Line allows this view. Also it summarizes every input and output item and will give you an idea of the necessary logistics between Production Blocks.

I come to the conclusion: Production Line doesn't represent 'ingame reality'. It merges and compresses information to give players another view on what to do and possibly how to do it.
The Production Block is more 'real'. It calculates exact numbers for the game's recipes and respects the ratios for buildings, too.

Coming back to status quo. I was confused by the different numbers shown in the Production Block. Ok, it's fairly easy to understand. The upper line/number represents a so called "sub-Block", which results from restricting the current Production Block you're viewing to a maximum of assemblers in this Block. The bottom line/number will summarize the whole Block. But wait ..
So now the Block is doing the summation? Wasn't it supposed to be the job for the Production Line? But in this Block internal summation it doesn't merge information but bloats it.
Also .. A Block inside a Block? Inception anybody?

Well .. to be honest, I don't like it. I don't need to know what my total in inputs will be, when designing a Production Block. The Production Block should be: perfect, calculated ratios. Easy to understand and easy to read and build from. In our example from above. It's very easy to place 4+1 assembler with 4 beacons (I know, it's the wrong number, because i messed up), connect everything and copy-and-pace 5 times. I dare you to do 20+4 assembler+20 beacons.

The summation of information should be done in the production line.
Alas! That's not all. With this knowledge you could just ignore the extra information. I mean, you know where to look (now) and what's important.
The (imo unnecessary) problem is the way, those "sub-Blocks" will come into existence. The only way to do so, is to limit the amount of assemblers for a recipe. What - you never used this feature and don't know where to find it?

recipe editor.png (162.18 KiB) Viewed 7431 times

I knew that this option exits but still I had difficulties finding it. Nonetheless this limitation by amount of assemblers does not make sense. This way the player has only small and very indirect control over the whole "Sub-Block" process. Choosing a number of factories does usually not represent the natural way a player would construct parts of his base, which probably will be a desicion based on belt capacity and building area, less knowing exactly how many assemblers you want. And what's funny: If you have a Production Block with more than one recipe, you can actually restrict the amount of assembers for every single recipe. This get's really confusing.
My intuition tells me that very few players using helmod will have actually used this feature.

But NOW, the good part

Forget about this sub-Block mess. Let there only be Production Blocks!!!
.
.
.
And production lines as well. Let's make the Best from this situation!

Right now the relation between production line and one Production Block will be one item. Or to be more precise, the amount of this item. In my example 30 Speed Module 1 which correlate to 150 Green Circuits. Let's say I have found a satifying setup for those 150 Circuits. If I now come to the conclusion that i need additional 10 Speed Module 1, helmod will automatically change the 150 Green Circuits to 200 Green Circuits. The ratios may be still technically be perfect but can it be build? Can it be build in a satisfactorio way?
By the way - changing an assembler or similar in the Production Block will lead to a changed Production Block as well.

Dear helfima, dead Ladies and Gentleman, dear Biters as well, I hereby present to you ... the solution.
Remove the relation between production line and Production Block via the amount of a key item. Let the Production Block always be defined by the player - he chooses how many items are made in a Production Block. It won't matter, how they are made, which assemblers or modules the player uses. This basically is the "unlinked" option. The link will only exist through the amount of Production Blocks.
If the player changes the production line it won't change the Production Block. It will only change the amount of Production Blocks needed to produce the necessary items.

improved version.png (132.34 KiB) Viewed 7430 times

This is my idea of how an improved version could work like. It works like this:

1. In my production line there is a need of 150 Green Circuits
2. I choose to make them in a seperate Block. I will design this Block how I want it and it will be unlinked at first.
   I can make as many Green Circuits in this Block, as I like. I can use as many factories as I want. And beacons however I like. In this example I choose to produce 30 Circuits per Block.
3. Next I set the slider "Calculate Block Quantity" to "ON". It will now change the Block to "linked" but leave everything else in the Block as is! It will fetch the total amount of items needed in the production line (150) and will divide this amount by the products provided by the production Block (30). E.g. 150/30 = 5. Now helmod knows that we want to build production Blocks that produce exactly 30 Green Circuits and will tell us, that we need 5 of them. The total of needed inputs will be seen in the production line view

Additionaly it would be a good idea to make the quantity field in the production line view editable by the user. There the user can input a static number which determines how many Blocks should be used. Everything inside those Blocks can then be calculated in the same way as helmod is now doing.
It really is the same thing, but in reverse direction.

I hope you like my idea and found enough time to read through all this text. I really hope that I didn't scare you with this and that if you decide to change something, it won't be too much work.
English is not my first language. If something is not understandable well, please tell me. I will try to explain.
If someone want's to add to my idea, please do so.

[gogeo]

Great post! It is helping me to understand this mod even better


Another question - how can I compute how many bots are needed for my base? Or this computation is not possible with Helmod?

Cheers
gg

[Helfima]

@GluAp I am French so to reassure you, English is not my native language.

the concept of "sub-blocks" is basically a simple way to know how many times I will put my blueprint (sub-blocks) after it is true that all these figures are a bit confusing. I already had the idea to simplify that a little suggest it to you. do not try to make calculations the bottom value is always the total in your case 4*5=20 assemblers and 4?*5=17 beacons ( 4? is the rounded value)

Concerning the difference between production line and production block, this is the very principle of true production, at the factory entrance you have basic products when you leave finished products when you enter the factory you have production sectors then production stations. we could put everything in a single block but it becomes a mess to organize the workstations so it's better to divide with production line = all of the production blocks and the production block = a set of workstations. we could also make more steps but from my point of view it complicates.

I took your comments, already I wanted to move "max per block" as for "Computing by factory".
it will take time and thought

[GluAp]

@GluAp I am French so to reassure you, English is not my native language.

France French? Canadian French? Or some other French? In one of those cases we'd be neighbours

the concept of "sub-blocks" is basically a simple way to know how many times I will put my blueprint (sub-blocks) after it is true that all these figures are a bit confusing. I already had the idea to simplify that a little suggest it to you. do not try to make calculations the bottom value is always the total in your case 4*5=20 assemblers and 4?*5=17 beacons ( 4? is the rounded value)

Ok? But why do you want to have a "sub Block" to represent a Blueprint? I'm sure, a Production Block can do the same.
Basically a Production Block should represent a finished element, so to say, a blueprint. This Blueprint/Block will output a specific amount of item X.
The Production Line is your Base Planner where you specify how many items of a sort you need. If you need more of item X, you should not have to rebuild your Blueprints (Production Blocks). You only should change the quantity of Blueprints you place in your game.

Right now helmod will work like this: Let's say in your Base you need Iron Plates and you put this in a Production Line representing your Base. You will make a Production Block for 30 Iron Plates and make a Blueprint for it. You progress further into game and realize, that you now want to have 120 Iron Plates. You change it in the Production Line. Most factorio players will instantly see that you just have to copy the existing Block/Blueprint for 30 Plates 3 more times, and you will get those 120 Plates. It's easy, no magic. But helmod at this moment does not "think" like this. Instead of just telling you that you need the 30 Plates Block 3 more time, it will adjust/change the 30 Plates Block to be a single 120 Plates Block.

Sure, you can split this single 120 Plates Block in 4 30 Plate Sub Blocks. But why? You already had a perfect 30 Plate Block. So - no Sub-Blocks needed.

The same principle but in math-speak:
Left Side == the Production Line == item_request
Right Side == the Production Block == item_provide
Default state for Production Block == linked. So an "A" item_request will result in "A" on item_provide

A = A

now we want to change "A" on the Production Line side to "C". But because left and right are linked, the Production Block side although has to change to "C".

C = C

The left side is what we wanted. It is a new player input. But we want the right side to have an "A" in it, because we already had a perfectly designed "A". So to get from "A" to "C", on the right side we do ..

C = A*B

.. where "B=C/A". This is true
So for any changed user input on the Production Line (left) side, the "A" which represents our Blueprint we already built, stays always the same. No need to recalculate the whole Production Block. Just calculate "B=C/A" and show "B" to the player. so he now knows, how many Blueprints "A" he needs. Again - no Sub-Blocks needed. No need to redesign "A" to form new "C"

Concerning the difference between production line and production block, this is the very principle of true production, at the factory entrance you have basic products when you leave finished products when you enter the factory you have production sectors then production stations. we could put everything in a single block but it becomes a mess to organize the workstations so it's better to divide with production line = all of the production blocks and the production block = a set of workstations. we could also make more steps but from my point of view it complicates.

Exactly. I just used other words for the same description

By the way: I just took a look at your mod code to try to see if I can find something for me to change in the code so I could maybe show you directly what I'd like with a working mod. But holy cow .. I have basic understanding in C coding, algorithms and can usually read other code as well. But every time I have to read through "real" code to find and understand something I just get a headache. Just to many words and numbers mixed together. I found some parts in the Modul.lua and ModelCompute.lua but I still don't have any idea how it works together. I honestly doubt I'd be able to do this in any responsible amount of time as I have no experience with lua or the factorio data structures.

How long did it take you to write the mod?

Great post! It is helping me to understand this mod even better


Another question - how can I compute how many bots are needed for my base? Or this computation is not possible with Helmod?

Thank you.

But how would you even try to compute the bots for a base? To calculate such an idea you would have to model all the chests and positions / distances between provider and requester chests. This means, layout your whole base as it will be build, for whatever part uses logistic networks. But this again means, you can't plan your base, instead you just have to build it, doesn't it?
I guess the best idea when thinking about bots is to do it realtime. So for any given state of your base at a certain time, just read all your robo networks and see if you have unused robots. If yes, you base has roughly enough. If there aren't any bots left waiting, you have to build more until it is satisfied.
I definitly have seen this done. You can even put new bot into the network by inserting them into roboports by inserters.

[Helfima]

"France French? Canadian French? Or some other French?" => France French
"How long did it take you to write the mod?" => I started the mode 3 years ago, there are hundreds of hours of work.

we should not focus on the term "sub-block", it's just an indication of the division

I understood that today it is a division and that your approach is a multiplication

for the code
data.ModelCompute.update() is the main function to compute the production line (loop on blocks)
data.ModelCompute.computeBlock(block) is the function to compute the production block
the real computing is in
math.SolverAlgebra:solve(...)
math.SolverSimplex:solve(...)

the difficulty is not the calculation but the interface and the way of doing
I never said it was a bad idea, I takes time to study and analyze
I have already been asked if I could add a factor so the 2 ideas meet

Helmod Discord https://discord.gg/mKEeAKb

[zegermans750]

First post, absolutely love the mod - unfortunately, my recipe button suddenly doesn't do anything - which kinda makes the mod not work. I'm running a full seablock mod with a few QOL mods like squeak through, long reach, bottleneck, etc. It worked great up to three production lines, but then it stopped letting me add new recipes, or even add new lines to existing production. It happened once before and it fixed itself somehow, but now I can't get it to work again. I've tried deactivating and reactivation as well as completely uninstalling the mod and it hasn't worked.

[Helfima]

@zegermans750 what is the version of mod? check log file!
you have try on new game? juste to see if your data is corrumpt.
have you try refresh button?

[slay_mithos]

While planning things for the newest seablock pack I (and others) needed to plan steam to produce angel's carbon.
I don't know what is causing the issue but helmod is telling me that I need 108 MJ of fuel to produce 60 steam instead of the 1.8 MJ that is expected.
108 happens to be 60 times 1.8 so my guess is that there is something making helmod believe that we need 1.8 MJ per unit of steam instead of for a batch of 60.

As far as I can tell there is only one recipe for steam, angel relocates it in the petro chemical refining tab (by the mod with the same name).

I am using the latest version of angel (0.9.7) and of helmod (0.10.15) but this was already happening a few days ago, with a screenshot showing the issue (not from me so I don't know if I am allowed to repost his screenshot):
viewtopic.php?p=489460#p489460

This is admittedly a pretty small issue since it doesn't impact the steam recipe when used for power, but it is weird enough to be worth mentioning.

(Other than that this mod has been a must-have for years, thank you for continuing to support and even further develop it)