Autobreaker for preventing brownouts and controlling backup power

[Theikkru]

This is designed to govern the electrical connections between three segregated parts of a power grid: primary power & accumulators (lower right), emergency backup power (upper right), and power consumers (upper left). So long as you have enough accumulators to absorb any spikes in power usage, this will prevent brownouts entirely.

autobreaker.png (229.85 KiB) Viewed 1749 times

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Copy blueprint
In the event that accumulator charge drops too low (<20% by default), the backup circuit will connect, and a global alert will be sent:

backup engaged

backup.png (1.51 MiB) Viewed 1748 times

Backup power will automatically disconnect once sufficient accumulator charge (>70% by default) has been restored.
If power consumption instead overwhelms both power systems, and drains the accumulators past a critical threshold (default 3%), the consumer connection will break until accumulators are somewhat recharged (>50% by default).
In general, the more accumulators there are (on the primary power circuit), the more forgiving this will be. Behavior becomes optimal once the combined power rating of accumulators reaches or exceeds the combined power rating of primary and backup power sources.

Edit: moved the non-circuit lamp so it won't annoyingly nibble on backup power overnight.
Edit 2: Swapped the non-circuit lamp and the adjacent power pole so that a Brownout Alarm pasted onto the corner will automatically connect.

[gGeorg]

"enough accumulators to absorb any spikes in power usage"
I dont think this device can do what you promice. Here is an example :
lets have a main base producing up to 100MW and average consmption is 80MW. Then laser wall start shooting consming 130MW so energy consumption spikes comes. Becouse of priority, power is redirected to lasers, then production is somewhat lowered.

Attack is one columumn of 40 bugs so it lasts for 30 seconds. it means 30 seconds of brownouts. Trick is, your device dont help, becouse power level in main grid keep 30seconds above threshold.

Most probably, you need measurement of discharge speed, then activate spike protection, when main base discharge is too fast >> > brownout. e.i. rather than switch activated by amount of power stored, it should be activated by speed of discharge. Simply because, brownout is the moment when discharging 100% do not give satisfaction even the power level iin accumulator is fine at the moment.

[Theikkru]

You can't leave out the "So long as"; that quote you pulled isn't a promise, it's a condition: If (primary power rating + accumulator power rating > highest power usage spike) then (no brownouts).
This autobreaker isn't designed to do anything about power spikes that exceed the total power rating of your electical grid, because that's what accumulators are for. This is designed to improve power distribution behavior and warn you when you're reaching the limits of your power supply.
For example, if your base is running at around 80MW, your power sources add up to 100MW, and you add some beaconed production lines, sending your average to 110MW, assuming you have enough accumulators to cover at least the extra 10MW, this will turn on backup power and send you an alert when the accumulators start running low, giving you an opportunity to add more power.
If you get into a fight with the biters or something and the problem gets worse, this will start cutting power intermittently so it can keep delivering full power (110MW+lasers?) when possible instead of constantly browning out (at 100MW).

P.S. After a little more thought, the distinction is largely moot anyways, since accumulators drain from full to empty in 5MJ÷300㎾=16⅔s, so even in your biter attack brownout scenario with not enough accumulators, while it might not prevent brownouts entirely, this would still help lessen the severity of the brownout by turning on backup power and intermittently recharging the accumulators.
The other thing this does is act as an emergency interrupt for brownout spirals; if you use logic circuits, electrical inserters, or other powered apparatus in your power supply, this will substitute for dedicated local power circuits by cutting the consumer power connection in order to preserve power supply circuits.

[gGeorg]

Here is my version of emergency backup power.

In the first lets define criteria:
1. Backup peak power build should be cheaper than regular power plant of same capacity.
2. Brownouts could happen so they can be detected then suppressed.
3. When power peak happen and detected then all power producers should be activated.

Short review of Theikkru contraption based on defined rules :
1. Price to build backup steam engines and price to build battery field is comparable to price build more steam engines power. No smartness is here.
2. build do not detect brownouts. Brownout can take several seconds to reach low level on main power grid to activate backup.
3. I am not sure about this point. I am to lazy to make a table to help me forge arguments.


Well, here my creation :
Emergency peak backup, it is 70MW emergency peak accumulator based on steam with capacity of 2,6GJ


it sucks surplus steam from Nuclear power plant, store it and use when emergency comes. There is simple condition on electric pump, if level of steam is > 20k then pump. It means, whenever nuclear plant produces more steam than it can consume backup steam tank is filled.
Activation and detection of emergency is truly unique trick.
It uses an accumulator as sensor to measure speed discharge. When max discharge speed is reached, then it means the brownout is here, then it means ACTIVATE THE PEAK POWER.

For speed of discharge detection is used one piece of one_time clock ( fastest discharge of one percent takes 9 ticks) then for lenght of emergency activation is used the second piece of one_time clock.

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Copy blueprint
Current build is raw, I mean is not pretty and organized, but it works.
I just wanted to present it before I make it neat.

[Theikkru]

I don't know how you're coming up with those criteria, but they don't make much sense. Your circuit is just a threshold-triggered version of what powerplants already do by default: throttle up and down based on instantaneous demand. If you have cheap peaker power to suppress power spikes with, you might as well leave out the circuitry and let the turbines handle it themselves.
Functionally, those turbines are no different from the accumulators in my blueprint; if you have enough to handle power spikes, then everything's fine. If you don't, you'll still get brownouts.

The concern of my autobreaker is what happens when you push past the continuous power rating (not peak power draw) of your power system. The criteria used for my build are as follows:
1. Protect power systems from running out of power (to prevent control circuits, etc. from locking out due to a blackout)
2. The user must be notified in a timely manner that power reserves are running low
3. Backup power may or may not be available, but is presumed undesirable for one reason or another (e.g. leftover old boiler power that's expensive and dirty to run), and therefore should only be used when absolutely necessary
4. In the event that the power issue cannot be addressed or gets worse, the build must perform the best it can with what power it has, automatically, and must ultimately fail gracefully.
5. Plug-and-play installation: any location bridging power production and power consumption circuits will work. Backup power is optional.

I call it an "autobreaker" and not a peaker plant for a reason: it behaves like a breaker, ultimately cutting power to the consumer circuit if necessary to fulfill criteria 1 and 4. A peaker plant like yours doesn't really do anything under those circumstances; it'll either drain out, like the accumulators, or, in the case of your blueprint, not connect at all.

[gGeorg]

I don't know how you're coming up with those criteria,

I made them to narrow usage for device. Honestly I didnt understand proper usage of your device neither.

Your circuit is just a threshold-triggered version of what powerplants already do by default: throttle up and down based on instantaneous demand. If you have cheap peaker power to suppress power spikes with, you might as well leave out the circuitry and let the turbines handle it themselves.

No. I have spend a lot time optimizing Perfect Clover leaf
viewtopic.php?f=208&t=96233
I can surely say, simple add turbines to the power plant can lead to disaster. Overspending steam can cause havoc for controlled power plant.

Functionally, those turbines are no different from the accumulators in my blueprint; if you have enough to handle power spikes, then everything's fine. If you don't, you'll still get brownouts.

Difference is space and price, steam accumulator is way cheaper and smaller. For equivalent 70MW e.i. 12 turbines you need 233 accumulators. Regarding capacity it is even worse, one storage tanks plus some steam in pipes makes about 2,6GJ for equivalent volume of accumulators you need 2600/5=520 pieces.
On top, I use(store) surplus steam which is made by standard operation, e.i. do not need an extra steam engines or fuel supply.

The concern of my autobreaker is what happens when you push past the continuous power rating (not peak power draw) of your power system.
I call it an "autobreaker" and not a peaker plant for a reason: it behaves like a breaker, ultimately cutting power to the consumer circuit if necessary to fulfill criteria 1 and 4. A peaker plant like yours doesn't really do anything under those circumstances; it'll either drain out, like the accumulators, or, in the case of your blueprint, not connect at all.

"when you push past the continuous power rating" means creating brownout. For my system it doesnt matter if brownout is peak by laser one massive shot or perhaps a part of factory started up. You system response takes too long, several seconds up to a minute. My system response is 9-17 ticks, always.

Some sensitive combinators which need steady power supply can be found in various sub-factory, like Kovarex, Nuclear power plant, train stations, etc. If you want to create the central stable power supply you have to make TWO POWER grids in your whole factory. That is quite a challenge.
BTW: What you mean "in the case of your blueprint, not connect at all" ? I see my bp works as it is.

[Theikkru]

[...]
No. I have spend a lot time optimizing Perfect Clover leaf
viewtopic.php?f=208&t=96233
I can surely say, simple add turbines to the power plant can lead to disaster. Overspending steam can cause havoc for controlled power plant.
[...]

Then you should post your peaker plant attachment in that topic, not here; the use case is completely different from my autobreaker, and your build assumes the existence of that specific circuit-controlled nuclear plant, both for its intended purpose, (not all nuclear plants are that sensitive,) and as a source of steam.

[...]
Difference is space and price, steam accumulator is way cheaper and smaller. For equivalent 70MW e.i. 12 turbines you need 233 accumulators. Regarding capacity it is even worse, one storage tanks plus some steam in pipes makes about 2,6GJ for equivalent volume of accumulators you need 2600/5=520 pieces.
On top, I use(store) surplus steam which is made by standard operation, e.i. do not need an extra steam engines or fuel supply.
[...]

Well of course it'd be cheaper to store steam, but now you're adding the assumption of 500℃ steam availability to the situation. Again, your build fits much better in the other topic.

[...]"when you push past the continuous power rating" means creating brownout.[...]

I think you're misinterpreting the term "continuous power rating". If you have 480MW of nuclear power, 14MW of boiler power, and 300MW of accumulator power (or peaker plant turbines, like your build), your continuous power rating is 494MW; 794MW would be your "peak power rating". It is impossible to prevent brownouts if you draw more than your peak power rating, but you can definitely prevent brownouts if you're using somewhere between your peak and continuous power ratings.

[...]
Some sensitive combinators which need steady power supply can be found in various sub-factory, like Kovarex, Nuclear power plant, train stations, etc. If you want to create the central stable power supply you have to make TWO POWER grids in your whole factory. That is quite a challenge.
[...]

The only circuits that should absolutely need continuous full power are those directly controlling power production (i.e. the nuclear plant in your examples). Everything else should be able to tolerate some simple blackouts. Severe brownouts can cause problems in certain situations, but if you're suffering from brownouts that bad, even with this autobreaker installed, something is catastrophically wrong with your power system (since that would mean you're consuming more than double your PEAK power rating).

[...]
BTW: What you mean "in the case of your blueprint, not connect at all" ? I see my bp works as it is.

Your peaker plant only activates when maximum accumulator drain rate is reached. If power drain isn't high enough to drain accumulators at maximum rate, they can drain dry without ever connecting the plant. Again, an example of the use cases for our two builds being completely different.

[gGeorg]

use case is completely different from my autobreaker, and your build assumes the existence of that specific circuit-controlled nuclear plant, both for its intended purpose, (not all nuclear plants are that sensitive,) and as a source of steam.

Yes, steam accumulator assume there source of surplus steam. It can be used on Steam engine or Nuclear steam (with higher capacity).
No, all Nuclears which read level of steam (wasteless) are sensitive to steam overspend.

[...]"when you push past the continuous power rating" means creating brownout.[...]

I think you're misinterpreting the term "continuous power rating". If you have 480MW of nuclear power, 14MW of boiler power, and 300MW of accumulator power (or peaker plant turbines, like your build), your continuous power rating is 494MW; 794MW would be your "peak power rating". It is impossible to prevent brownouts if you draw more than your peak power rating, but you can definitely prevent brownouts if you're using somewhere between your peak and continuous power ratings.

Agree, that is what I ment. Truth is,
- your "autobraker" can not response peaks
- my "steam accu" can response peaks AND work as emergency low power buffer (since v2, see below)

[...]
BTW: What you mean "in the case of your blueprint, not connect at all" ? I see my bp works as it is.

Your peaker plant only activates when maximum accumulator drain rate is reached. If power drain isn't high enough to drain accumulators at maximum rate, they can drain dry without ever connecting the plant.

Right, fixed in new v2

Steam accu V2 Capacity : 70MW / 2,6GJ
>>> polished up, nice and squared
- added low power level activation
- added internal power grid

[Theikkru]

[...]
No, all Nuclears which read level of steam (wasteless) are sensitive to steam overspend.
[...]

Untrue. That sensitivity is dependent on the energy buffer of the plant being tuned to the minimum required for the plant's rating. If you add more steam tanks and/or heat exchangers beyond that minimum, the sensitivity is alleviated. It also doesn't exist in plants where it is impossible to add more turbines due to the physical configuration and steam flow characteristics of the plant.

[...]
- your "autobraker" can not response peaks
- my "steam accu" can response peaks AND work as emergency low power buffer (since v2, see below)
[...]

You're not really responding to peaks; see: "it is impossible to prevent brownouts if you draw more than your peak power rating." If you try to draw more power than those turbines can provide, you'll still brown out, the same as if you didn't have enough accumulators. The circuit itself could be useful for sending a notification that peak power draw is happening, but by using it on those turbines, all you're doing is sequestering some of your peaker power behind a switch so that it doesn't overdraw your nuclear plant. Again, your build really belongs in your other topic.

[gGeorg]

No, all Nuclears which read level of steam (wasteless) are sensitive to steam overspend.

If you add more steam tanks and/or heat exchangers beyond that minimum, the sensitivity is alleviated. It also doesn't exist in plants where it is impossible to add more turbines due to the physical configuration and steam flow characteristics of the plant.

1. If you add more steam tanks, you only postpone overheat. It is not solution, it is delaying the problem.
2. It is possible to add extra heat exchangers AND turbines to make sure your steam production is EQUAL to consumption, but in this case it is not overspend. e.i. your original idea of "simple add some extra turbines" turned into full re-disign of whole power plant.
3. if your power plant has so wrong flow that it cannot feed more turbines to create overspend, well that is sad. I am sure the flow can be fixed. However, when fixed, then overspend makes plant overheat. I really dont understand your reasoning.

Again, all power-plants who read steam level are sensitive to overspend. That is why my steam based accumulator use only surplus steam to prevent overspend.

- your "autobraker" can not response peaks
- my "steam accu" can response peaks AND work as emergency low power buffer (since v2, see below)

You're not really responding to peaks; see: "it is impossible to prevent brownouts if you draw more than your peak power rating." If you try to draw more power than those turbines can provide, you'll still brown out, the same as if you didn't have enough accumulators. The circuit itself could be useful for sending a notification that peak power draw is happening, but by using it on those turbines, all you're doing is sequestering some of your peaker power behind a switch so that it doesn't overdraw your nuclear plant. Again, your build really belongs in your other topic.

Of course I do respond the peaks. Reaction time to peak is 8-17 ticks. There is desing value the size of peak it can swallow. As long as peak is within range of 0-70MW it works as intended.

That is the whole point. Cheap Rise Up Peak Power above sustainable power. In case of four leave power plant 40-480MW sustained power, you can attach cheap steam based accumulator to add 70MW peak power. You can clearly see usefulness. In extreme case, 40MW one core power plant feeding laser defence. It can choke self very often. When you attach steam based accu with 70MW extra power,problem is solved.

True is that your own design do not responding to peaks. In case of power emergency you wait until accu field power level drops below the threshold, which might take several seconds (up to a minutte. Response time is, e.i. 300 - 3600 ticks! Compare to mine). In this time battle is over, power hungry lasers are calm again, but your battery contraption just woke up and rise peak power output.
--------------
Honestly your idea of steam engine section isolated and working only for accu field is not very efficient. In case I make a re-arange as fallows :
Use your steam engines as part of main grid, (so you get more sustainable power) then attach my steam based accu suck surplus steam. (to rise up peak power) Result will be better and cheaper. Thing is, steam accu emergency buffer is far more efficient than electric accu. But I see you are not looking for competition or searching for better solution. You are repeating, not post here. So will be it. Thanks for base/raw idea of emergency buffer.

[Theikkru]

1. If you add more steam tanks, you only postpone overheat. It is not solution, it is delaying the problem.
[...]

No, adding steam tanks increases the energy buffer of the powerplant, both making it harder to overdraw the plant to the trigger point, and providing more room to sink reactor energy that may accumulate from spiky power draw. That lets you add more turbines. In fact, that is fundamentally how your peaker plant works as well: the extra steam tank holds reserve steam to help absorb power spikes. Your design wouldn't work without it, and would work just as well without the circuit as long as that tank and the pump are there.

[...]
2. It is possible to add extra heat exchangers AND turbines to make sure your steam production is EQUAL to consumption, but in this case it is not overspend. e.i. your original idea of "simple add some extra turbines" turned into full re-disign of whole power plant.
[...]

No, you don't need as many extra exchangers as you added extra turbines; there's a ratio involved, but it isn't steam-equal. Also, you're already adding extra turbines on to overdraw the plant above rating, so if tacking on a few extra tanks or exchangers constitutes a complete redesign, you're already there.

[...]
Again, all power-plants who read steam level are sensitive to overspend.[...]

Still incorrect, and easily disproven with a simple hypothetical: If you have the correct ratio of heat exchangers for continuous reactor use, and enough steam tanks such that, at the steam trigger level, there is already enough empty space in the tanks to accommodate all the energy from the next reactor cycle, there will ALWAYS be enough room to unload all of the heat energy from the reactors and pipes as steam, so the reactors simply cannot overheat.

[...]
Of course I do respond the peaks. Reaction time to peak is 8-17 ticks. There is desing value the size of peak it can swallow. As long as peak is within range of 0-70MW it works as intended.
[...]

You're missing the point. You accused my build of not handling peaks because the accumulators can't handle power spikes above peak power rating:

[...]Simply because, brownout is the moment when discharging 100% do not give satisfaction even the power level iin accumulator is fine at the moment.
[...]

By the same reasoning, your peaker plant also can't handle power spikes above peak power rating (70MW). There is no difference at all in behavior between my accumulators and your turbines. You haven't changed the problem at all. In fact, your initial accusation doesn't make sense in the first place.

[...]
That is the whole point. Cheap Rise up peak power above sustainable power. In case of four leave power plant 40-480MW sustained power, you can attach cheap steam based accumulator to add 70MW peak power. You can clearly see usefulness.[...]

Useful, maybe, if you happen to have extra 500℃ steam sitting around nearby, but also clearly off topic:

[...]
This autobreaker isn't designed to do anything about power spikes that exceed the total power rating of your electical grid, because that's what accumulators are for. This is designed to improve power distribution behavior and warn you when you're reaching the limits of your power supply.[...]

[...]
The concern of my autobreaker is what happens when you push past the continuous power rating (not peak power draw) of your power system.
[...]
I call it an "autobreaker" and not a peaker plant for a reason: it behaves like a breaker, ultimately cutting power to the consumer circuit if necessary to fulfill criteria[...]

-----

[...]
True is that your design do not responding to peaks. In case of power emergency you wait until accu field power level drops below the threshold, which might take several seconds (up to a minute). In this time battle is over, power hungry lasers are calm
again, but your battery contraption just woke up and rise peak power output.
[...]

Incorrect. All accumulators on the power grid respond instantly, and even in the case of peak overdraw, the emergency backup will come online in no more than 16⅔×80%＝13⅓seconds at the default setting.

[...]
Honestly your idea of steam engine line working only for accu field is not very efficient.[...]

Have you at least tried using it? That's not how it works.

[...]
Use your steam engines as part of main grid, (so yo get more sustanable ) then attach my steam based accu. (to risse up peak power) Result will be better and cheaper.[...]

In case you missed it:

[...]The criteria used for my build are as follows:
[...]
3. Backup power may or may not be available, but is presumed undesirable for one reason or another (e.g. leftover old boiler power that's expensive and dirty to run), and therefore should only be used when absolutely necessary
[...]

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[...]Thing is, steam accu emergency buffer is far more efficient than electric accu. But I see you dont looking for competition or search forbetter solution. You are repeating, not post here. So will be it. Thanks for base/raw idea of emergency buffer.

Next time, please try to understand what the topic is about before posting in it.

[gGeorg]

LOL. You are wrong in so many points that is pointless continue some discussion.

[Tallywort]

The merits of different circuit-based or circuitless reactors and their fuel efficiencies are off topic here.

But in terms of energy storage, peak power is wholly determined by the amount of turbines, and storage by the amount of tanks (and pipes etc.).

This is equivalent to accumulators providing peak power draw of 300kW extra power per accumulator (added to your baseline power, not in place of) and providing storage capacity.

It is also equivalent to a backup plant providing extra power, with energy stored as heat and steam and in its fuel buffer. (so chests and belts and such)

In any case trying to draw more power than peak will cause a brownout, as does any prolonged power draw over baseline capacity after the energy storage empties.

But if you ever draw enough power that you draw more than the peak output of your production and accumulators, then I believe that with OP's system, that results in a brownout in the short time before it switches the backup power on. This then effectively makes it so that the backup power plant only adds to energy storage instead of also adding to peak power capacity.

Still think that even just the extra storage is worth it, and barring that, shutting down noncritical systems is always preferable to spiralling to a blackout.

[Theikkru]

[...]
But if you ever draw enough power that you draw more than the peak output of your production and accumulators, then I believe that with OP's system, that results in a brownout in the short time before it switches the backup power on. This then effectively makes it so that the backup power plant only adds to energy storage instead of also adding to peak power capacity.
[...]

Not quite. In an overdraw situation, you get 13⅓seconds of brownout until the accumulators discharge to the emergency backup threshold, at which point that kicks on and the entire grid gets maximum power. If that's still not enough, the consumer connection will trip about 3 seconds later, causing a blackout while both emergency and primary power recharge the accumulators. In most cases (accumulator power ≤ primary + backup power), the accumulators will reach 50% charge about 8 seconds later, at which point the consumer connection gets restored, providing another 8 seconds of peak power as the accumulators discharge again. The emergency backup won't disconnect until 70% charge, so as long as the overdraw condition continues, you'll keep getting a cycle of 8 seconds of peak power, followed by 8 seconds of blackout.

[...]will cause a brownout, as does any prolonged power draw over baseline capacity after the energy storage empties.
[...]

This is the case the autobreaker is designed for; it converts what would be a constant (and possibly spiraling) brownout into alternating full power & blackouts (assuming backup power wasn't enough).

[Tallywort]

Not quite. In an overdraw situation, you get 13⅓seconds of brownout until the accumulators discharge to the emergency backup threshold, at which point that kicks on and the entire grid gets maximum power.

Yes, but it doesn't prevent those brownouts from occurring, as it needs to detect a partially drained accumulator before it can respond. So in terms of preventing brownouts in the first place, the backup power does nothing beyond what the accumulators did. Instead it mitigates the effects after a brownout has started. (by extending the time until the accumulators fully empty and/or stopping the brownout in progress)

Still useful, but not quite preventing brownouts completely.

[Theikkru]

Insomuch as it will not respond to power spikes high enough to overdraw the accumulators, but not long enough to drain them, that is correct; as I wrote in the first post, the condition/assumption is that you have enough accumulators to handle transient spikes like that, and the design presumes that the emergency backup is "dirty" enough that you wouldn't want to use it as regular peaker power; peaker power, like accumulators, would belong on the primary power circuit.
If you do have enough accumulators to absorb such spikes, however, the logic will prevent brownouts entirely.

[Theikkru]

Since transient power spikes (which this autobreaker doesn't address) seem to be a sticking point, I've thrown together a brownout alarm that'll alert you to them, so you'll know when to add more accumulators (or other peaker power). It's blueprinted in such a way that it can share a corner accumulator with this autobreaker, and, in concert, they cover all possible brownout scenarios.

[Nosferatu]

A while ago I also made an emergency battery.
It's detector has a different aim. It searches for deep brownouts.

What might be interesting for you:
It has 16 independent battery's and it tries to only commit them one by one depending how deep the brownout is.

viewtopic.php?f=208&t=91791

[Theikkru]

The brownout alarm I linked above has similar deep brownout detection capability, but, since you brought it up, I must ask:

[...]
It has 16 independent battery's and it tries to only commit them one by one depending how deep the brownout is.
[...]

What is the advantage to isolating accumulator banks behind control circuitry over simply connecting them directly to the power network?
From a design principles standpoint, I don't see a prolonged brownout as preferable to intermittent blackouts.

[Nosferatu]

Once you reach "deep brown out" combinators will no longer update correctly.
So timers will slow done. Other circuits might miss inputs.

Committing just enough batteries to prevent deep brown outs can prolong battery life. Hopefully long enough until the night is over.