Friday Facts #373 - Factorio: Space Age

[BlueTemplar]

I am just praying that Wube doesn't repeat the mistakes Klei made with Spaced Out.

Please enlighten us what those mistakes were ?

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From the post, it looks like things are progressing nicely towards Step 6 - Beta testing. I do hope that an 'early access' version is made relatively soon with the caveat that it would need to be purchased (similar to how Factorio was released). I would be willing to pay full expansion price to be part of your early access beta testers. I imagine with FFFs coming every week now, I will need to remain patient and look forward to news on that in a future FFF.
[...]

Sorry, an open beta seems unlikely :

[...]
Step 6 - Beta test

At this point, most of the graphics are in place, and the game is fully playable. When the game feels close to finished, we can tweak the final details, like new simulation screens, tips and tricks, achievements, and so on. We can also start to invite a limited number of players to help us find the most obvious bugs. We want to also invite some of the mod makers to help us test the modding API, and let them prepare for the release. Same goes for our top community translators/proofreaders on Crowdin.

Step 7 - Release

The tricky part is, that we want to release basically directly to stable, without an experimental phase, like when we released 1.0. The reason is the obvious problem we would have otherwise: An experimental release is not interesting to many people, but by the time it becomes officially stable, it is old news and nobody cares. Hopefully the focus on automated tests and beta testing should make it smooth enough.
[...]

However, since the closed beta already started, and will be taking more people as we get closer to release, you can always try to apply ? (But expect to have a LOT of competition at first ! )

(I'm not even bothered, it has been years since the modders have been releasing great extensions to the game faster than I am able to try them !)

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Excellent news!

……Something to make me say “I did it” other than seeing 1000 on a graph……

That would be a great new achievement, some sciencepacks/minute. Would make speedrunners rethink their strategy as well. New challenges.

Of course, there are already mods for that.

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[...]
The one part that did catch me attention was the "technical" possibility of playing Vanilla to rocket launch and then switching over to SA. Seems like the balance is trashed, heavily, allowing that. At the end of Vanilla I'll have level 3 modules, arty, and cliff explosives in quantity, even if the recipe changes and nullifies the existing factories. I love having options, yet I'm not sure "that" option belongs in the deck.
[...]

«Technically», you have the possibility to load, say a 0.15 factory, and upgrade it to 1.1 (possibly through multiple steps), but of course it's not really recommended - and there's also not much point, considering how you can just continue playing it on that version using a separate Factorio folder.
(Or upgrade a total conversion mod factory to a new big mod version that would make lots of changes - same issue.)

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[...] Hard to see even for non colorblind people

I am not sure I agree. Can you point to a pair of flasks you think are hard to distinguish, for non-colorblind people?

As a someone without colorblindness, just ancient eyes, looking at the tech-tree sample I can barely tell the logistic science green from the new green and the utility science yellow from the new orange?, and even in the larger icon for the red it looks like automation science to me.

If the belts are in isolation from each other, I don't think I could tell if the green was old or new at all, while I might notice the difference between yellow and orange. The two reds are so close that I might tell them apart if they were side-by-side on a belt, maybe. A different shape to the flask wouldn't help much either. On a full belt at zoom-level 1, or further out, the shape's probably lost anyway, especially in map view at the first detail zoom level where even other similar things are the "same" based on shape and color. Concrete, bricks, and refined concrete as a "concrete" example. Of course, I happen to love the science beakers for science packs, just seems natural. I am not, however, any good with colors, so I have no suggestions for changes, merely the request for change.

With eyes that aren't too ancient yet, bricks on belts look quite different from concrete IMHO, and with my badly calibrated wide gamut monitor, only pink and red might give me trouble.
But it looks like it's going to suck a lot for colorblind people :

fff-373-technology-graph-smaller_red-blind.png (170.66 KiB) Viewed 4530 times

fff-373-technology-graph-smaller_green-blind.png (171.63 KiB) Viewed 4530 times

fff-373-technology-graph-smaller_blue-blind.png (171.8 KiB) Viewed 4530 times

So I would support different beaker shapes.
Factorio has color filters, but some colorblind people have reported them not working for them.
I'm aware that color filters in games are often not even for the colorblind people directly, they are here as a testing tool for the developers (including modders) that aren't, so that they are able to notice the issues that colourblind people are suffering from, maybe this is also the case for Factorio ??
Colorblindness/Accessibility Improvements

IMHO, Factorio is finished enough and big enough at this point that maybe these aspects affecting minorities should be also worked on ?
(And considering what I expect the Factorio playerbase to be, I would expect around 8% of them to have these issues, not a tiny minority.)

Also, comes to mind :
- Is Factorio fully compatible with IPv6-only networks ? Can you use domain names in the IP field ?
(IMHO we should be already at the point where non-IPv6-compatible hadware/software should be illegal, before IPv4-compatible (or at least defaulting to) hardware/software is made illegal a few years later, like it happened for digital TV standards.)
- Maybe consider right-to-left text compatibility again ? What is the state of Unicode support ?

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[...]
artillery meanwhile i have mixed feelings about, it feels like a sort of win condition even, so in that sense i definitely support moving it further. however from an immersion standpoint it has always felt weird, and this'd make it feel even more weird, as i often end up having nukes before artillery, which is just very strange-feeling progression, because in the end artillery is really just an enormous gun, and it's not like the engineer hasn't built guns before. meanwhile, nukes since being added have felt a bit underwhelming, so i think a better idea would be rebalancing such that artillery is a good mid-to-endgame defense rather than a proper offensive weapon, and nukes become the high end offensive tech you need to reach space for, which'd make the progression feel a bit more natural in my opinion. now, granted, that's only something i thought of while making a coffee, and probably has some issues i haven't thought of, but point stands
[...]

Nukes are currently after artillery, though not dramatically so, depending on your science production.
Which I would argue is on the contrary backwards (Gameplay >>> Realism), because while nukes are very powerful (and with a second nuke to get rid of the aggroed biters you don't need any defenses, unlike for artillery), they are MUCH less automatic than an artillery train on a «border patrol». (Maybe nukes combined with spidertrons ?? Haven't tried that yet...)

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Anything that is part of the 2.0 engine and not tied to expansion content will be used by SE.

SA won't be a hard dependency, i.e. you won't NEED it to play SE.

SA will probably be an optional dependency, so extra features be used if they are unlocked. This will mean that SE will be a bit different based on if you have SA or not. I don't really like having 2 versions like this, at least not while I'm still changing so much in the mod, but it seems unavoidable unless the SE playerbase overwhelmingly already has the expansion, but I don't know what the acceptable % would be for it to be ok to make it required.

Either way, things are changing on both sides and I have a long time before I need to start making these decisions.

Space Exploration's core audience is advanced players who have put in a lot of energy on Factorio and who want ~150-500 hours of challenge. Surely the expansion cost isn't much to ask given that many hours of quality entertainment? Many games provide far less for more money. Given that everything is a tradeoff it seems more valuable to be able to focus on more features sooner rather than spending a lot of time trying to make SE work well without the expansion. If they still don't want to buy the expansion, they can play an older SE version.
Given how painful timing and compatibility mod conflicts already are requiring the expansion seems like an easy way to reduce development complexity to me.

Indeed, while it would suck that the expansion would be required for standalone «generalist» / early game mods like Alien Biomes, AAI vehicles, Jetpack, pYanodons Industry, Angels Industries (why oh why still these mod requirements ?!) or even AAI Industry - it just makes no sense to spend effort on separate versions for games without Space Age for the big/complex/grindy overhaul mods like Space Exploration, Sea Block, (full) pYanodons ?

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The only thing I actually need is train improvements:
1. Possibility of higher throughput for the single train
2. Bridges or tunnels or both.
The thing I want is a gate to teleport between distant parts of the base
[...]

From experience with pYanodon's xenoworm logistic station «teleporters» (and cargo xenobears and xenowhales), while teleporters feel very cool at first, in the end they are much less interesting than other logistic options, especially trains !

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[...]
I just uh... Hope you can't get killed by other space platforms floating around... I have enough problems with just the trains being after me!

More seriously, same thing, trains are much more interesting than many other forms of transportation because you have to be careful of them not colliding with each other !

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there are no steering engines (except for the turrets recoil). You can't steer or turn, thus you can not stop.

Actually, that's a good point. Accurate acceleration/deceleration and all the challenges that entails would be a great mechanic that would go to the heart of the original factorio.

This was a huge miss in SE, imho. Starting/Stopping on a dime makes things more convenient, but removes so many potentially interesting problems.

Trains are a good example of this and how they destroy anything in their path, especially as you amp up their size/tech/fuel. More could have been done, tho.
[...]

But also even trains could (in a different game ?) be more interesting :
You might have noticed that they don't slow down even in tight 90° corners (and also stop on a dime if the rails break just before them). This has consequences for rail layouts, there's no (efficiency) incentive to use anything else than these as tight as possible 90° corners !
(But then the bigger issue is how Factorio is tile-based, and so while diagonal rails exist, they are second-class citizens, because they take more space, don't fit well with the rest of the factory, diagonal gates and stations don't even exist, &c.)

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Yes this is an interesting development for a game I am enjoying still . I think that FACTORIO has the scope to go in a few directions though .I propose that an expansion of the game could utilise and improve some existing Mods ."They are biters" comes to mind .Also tying in airfiltering and how it effects the biters could be expanded .
I propose something a little radical . The story would include the addition of personel .Aspects of the factory requires the presence of personel for functionality and research .The story of how the personel get to the factory and it's protection .The story is that a colony ship orbiting the planet is in the slow process of orbital failure .Drop pods with personel on board are deployed randomly .Some closer to the factory some further away .
The personel have to be rescued and transported to the factory and protected en route .The biters not only attack personel and the drop pods but emit poison into the atmosphere .So the time factor of rescue is also key .Rescue personel before they sucumm .
Atmospere filtering would be an integral part of factorio .
A helecopter with grappling hooks for the drop pods would be the initial transport .Transport would have to be upgraded as more personel would need to be rescued from the field of play .Flying Biters ? The introduction of anti air tech ?

IMHO some of these would be too hardcore additions to vanilla, but «there are mods for that» :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Pitch_Black

Presently, your first day is bright and will last 2 hours. After that nights will occur lasting roughly 20-40 minutes to 30-40 minutes day time, although days will still be dark.

Biter behavior comes in phases, where they will be more passive during the daytime and become more aggressive at night.

(Also Wave Defense scenario ?)
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Oxygen

Your oxygen amount is taken from oxygen bottles in your inventory. If you have no oxygen bottles, you get damage.
The more polluted your position is, the more oxygen you will need!

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I was wondering if nobody noticed some interesting things, until now.
I will talk about some of tamanous' list ↑ and some more findings.

• one turret is missing it's ammo inserter
• one turret is feed by the central rocket thingy
• two collectors are dumping their trash directly into space, two don't

This seems to me like just some fuel to throw into the talk fire
[...]

My guess on the engine is fuel and oxidizer. For fuel refinement a different fluid resource is needed.
[...]

I guess we were a bit carried away, we have to remember that this animation has first to look cool even for people that never played Factorio, and it's not like Factorio advertising has not been quite game-inconsistent before :


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Phew, I got a bit carried away there, it's nice to be back !

[dog80]

HYPE!!!

[factoriouzr]

This is cool and as most of us expected. A space expansion.

I'm cautiously optimistic about the expansion but there are things I don't like about the changes you have made already even in just this one post.

I don't like how you lock existing technology behind the new progression system like spidertron and the artillery. I think this is a bad design decision. I think you should leave these as they are and instead think of new cool technology you could give the players from the new planets instead of locking them out of things they already had.

New players won't know the difference, but for us, long time fans, this is kind of a kick in the face. You you could overcome this with mods, but you shouldn't have to.

It really feels like an excuse for not designing the expansion better or picking a better concept for the expansion.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hopeful for the expansion, but don't lock existing tech behind the new requirements to go to other planets, make the other planets and tech needed for them more interesting and reward the player with new improved gameplay systems.

This feels lazy. Hey, you had spidertron, artillery etc, now you don't. The expansion you have to buy will take those away from you and instead give them back to you as a reward for doing the expansion content. This is not a good design decision and reward for existing fans that put hundreds or thousdands of hours into the game. You are literally taking stuff from the base game the players had and removing that content and locking it behind the expansion for those who purchase the expansion. This feels like a punishment instead of a reward for buying and playing the expansion. I strongly suggest you change your approach here. Leave all the base tech as is and instead expand on it in interesting new ways and add new gameplay mechanics instead of removing them. How about a flying/hovering spidertron upgrade module? How about a flying vehicle you can ride with upgrade slots like spidertron. That way the players don't feel cheated. They still have spidertron, can upgrade it more in the expansion but they also work towards a flying vehicle which is an upgrade in significant ways to spidertron.

Thanks

[yblondinca]

However, since the closed beta already started, and will be taking more people as we get closer to release, you can always try to apply ? (But expect to have a LOT of competition at first ! )

(I'm not even bothered, it has been years since the modders have been releasing great extensions to the game faster than I am able to try them !)

Yeah, that's probably a fair assessment. But I figured it was still worth asking if they were looking for more beta testing feedback from certain aspects of their player base (experienced or new players to SA/SE, vanilla veterans, new Factorio players).

I think one of the things that has made Factorio such a well polished game is the time it spent in Early Access. However, the FFF explanation for how they want to approach Step 7 - Release makes sense too.

Thanks for the analysis!

[kovarex]

This feels lazy. Hey, you had spidertron, artillery etc, now you don't. The expansion you have to buy will take those away from you and instead give them back to you as a reward for doing the expansion content.

As I specified in the original post, these are not the only rewards, and you get more stuff when playing the expansion, and also ways to make the existing stuff more powerful. Its just the fact (based on testing and feeling), that on Nauvis itself, you have tools to solve (almost) everything locally, so without adding additional obstacles to the original planet, the motivation to expand it would be small and probably postponed too much.

This way, the planets allow you to have upgrades of what you have, but also provide more convinient solution to problems you have on the original planet.
But even as it is, without the cliff explosives, artillery and spidertron, you can still build quite a big base without problems as you still have trains, blueprints, robots, super strong turrets etc.

I put all the potentially bad news in the very first post, to kind of unload the potentially bad stuff in the start, but as we show more, things should make more sense.

I also see a special added value in the added challenge, where you need to make your base super reliable before leaving for another planet, as it should continue working without your presence and manual tweaks for some hours. So systems like trains supplying repair materials to outer walls etc. are suddenly much more important. But with artillery and spidertron, these challanges disappear too early.

[spiro9]

With space being added to the progression alongside several new planets, is it possible that the 255-tile limitation will be upped? The new tiles needed for these planets and for the space platforms will create problems for mods like Alien Biomes, which already have problems enough with that limitation as-is when combined with other similar mods.

[yblondinca]

I also see a special added value in the added challenge, where you need to make your base super reliable before leaving for another planet, as it should continue working without your presence and manual tweaks for some hours. So systems like trains supplying repair materials to outer walls etc. are suddenly much more important. But with artillery and spidertron, these challanges disappear too early.

Automation has always been the key success in Factorio. It's even more apparent when you play the more difficult versions of the game like Deathworld Marathon or certain mods. Having the extra tools are nice but sometimes it's fun to solve problems with the tools you have available versus unlocking everything right away and steamrolling the content/continent.

[Atraps003]

(IMHO we should be already at the point where non-IPv6-compatible hadware/software should be illegal

A protocol so good it needs to be mandatory.

[Néomorphos]

I don't like how you lock existing technology behind the new progression system like spidertron and the artillery. I think this is a bad design decision. I think you should leave these as they are and instead think of new cool technology you could give the players from the new planets instead of locking them out of things they already had.

Actually it's not that uncommon for game expansions to redistribute the original game content.
Reason for this is that the original game is supposed to work on its own, and being a complete experience by itself... so adding something to it without changing anything of the base game may lead in the expansion feeling like another game put next to the original.

There are various design answers, but when it comes to systems-heavy expansions (as in, new systems, not only content for existing systems) it's common to change the original systems.
A great example, although in a widely different genre, is Doom Eternal : the DLC basically removes the Crucible (the red glowing energy sword), to make room for the sentinel hammer.
Other companies simply plan their DLC long before the core game releases, Paradox does that all the time... but it can lead to the original game to feel weak or incomplete (or even plain bad).

Also, this "expansion" looks like it's going to completely change Factorio's physionomy. We are going from a 35hrs-to-beat game to a 80hrs-to-beat game, so with this amount of change, it's only normal to have a dramatically different experience. We are not speaking about an end-game DLC or an addition of a few story missions.

[Axios]

Awesome news! Already consider my copy sold!

Definitely sure that the next FFF will cover this... Now, with one planet only, we can use the map, the robots and remoted controlled Spidertron for quick solve issue not near the player. How it will be with several planets and space bases?

Can't wait to see details about trains management and hoping something about water tiles... maybe cargo boats...

I think that tons of suprises are still waiting to be unveiled...

[BlueTemplar]

I'm wondering something about optimisation.

Factorio as a game is incredibly well made from an optimisation standppoint, and in previous blog posts, the difficulties about implementing multi-threading were discussed. The game already makes use of a remarkable amount of multi-threading, but there are still quite a few single threaded bottlenecks as far as I can tell.

With the space exploration mod, I once either asked or read a discussion with Earandel about if the different planets are also parallelized. That seemed like a perfect place to implement multi-threading to me, as different planets usually don't have that many interactions, so running everything to do with updating the game, even the things that normally have to be single-threaded, parallel per planet seemed logical to me.

The answer was that the different planets weren't multi-threaded. SE made use of built in surfaces functionality, it didn't implement running multiple plantes within the mod itself, and different surfaces weren't updated in parrallel. Since that is engine level, a mod couldn't implement parallelisation there even if it wanted.

Now with the vanilla game also introduciing multiple planets, and likely also making heavier use of the multiple surfaces, is parrallelising the surfaces for the game update something that is comming?

The last few years have seen an increase in core count (even if they are efficiency cores in Intel's case) and cache sizes (AMD 3D V-Cache) in even mid/low level consumer CPUs, even if the single threaded performance increase is stagnating. So taking even more advantage of parralellisation/multi-threading seems like a good optimisation srategy.

I stumbled on this old gem :

I wonder if main thread threading is planned, because you could build 4x ish bigger factories on quadcore cpu.

The only thing that comes into my mind for this is the following:

The last few years have seen an increase in core count (even if they are efficiency cores in Intel's case) and cache sizes (AMD 3D V-Cache) in even mid/low level consumer CPUs, even if the single threaded performance increase is stagnating. So taking even more advantage of parralellisation/multi-threading seems like a good optimisation srategy.

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-324

The underlying algorithm didn't change but it just ran > 3x faster now by touching less memory. This is another nice example of "Factorio is not CPU bound, it's memory latency bound". More cores wasn't going to make this faster - because it was never limited by how fast the CPU ran.

I doubt there is any optimization available that is going to allow for much larger active entity counts when aggregated across all the new surfaces other than clusterio-like support.

But I wonder : currently my understanding is that all the surfaces are tightly coupled - every tick ?
But do they *have* to ? Or, as you say, they could be a bit more clusterio-like... what would be the consequence of them only communicating, say, every other tick ? (Or even auto-adapting to UPS?)
(More of a rhetorical question at this point since we hardly know anything about the expansion yet.)
(Potentially configurable - not sure what nasty consequences this would cause to other mods that use surfaces (Warptorio, Factorissimo...) ?)

[aka13]

But with artillery and spidertron, these challanges disappear too early.

How come, genuinely curious, that you consider that artillery makes it disappear? Artillery is what makes it reliable in the first place.
Without artillery there is no way in vanilla to have autonomous base defense.


What (at least with the current biter AI) happens, if you do not have artillery at every wall:
1. You clear out (some) area in front of the to-be-built wall installation
2. You build a wall:
2.1 You build the wall
2.2 You add turrets
2.3 You add roboports providing repair packs
2.4 You add a circuit-controlled station requesting more parts, robots, fuel/ammo.

Currently, the distance at which biters build settlements near player structures is small enough, for turrets to trigger spawned biters, but not to reach the spawners.
If you skip building artillery, on every base size (the larger the perimeter, the more pronounced the effect) you will very quickly experience it.
What will happen is, that since biter spawn indefinitely, is that one specific nest, no matter the current evolution values, exhausting that specific place in your defenses.
In my experience, spidertrons are way off at that point in time, and so the only way to deal with it, is to ride the train to the place in question, and manually exterminate the threat, or in some cases turret creep remotely via radar trying to patch the hole.

In vanilla this more or less makes requester chest-artillery the two most important and rushed techs for me.

[BlueTemplar]

Maybe if you don't use flame turrets, and/or place the walls too close ?

I have never seen don't remember seeing what you describe happen - what I *have* seen happen is, once you get high enough in evolution, for the biters starting to settle, at best in flame turret range :

biters_settling_in_range_of_flame_turrets.png (4.9 MiB) Viewed 4181 times

EDIT: Hmm, the top left spawner might look like it would cause this issue, but IIRC it got killed by flame splash soon after ? Anyway, in my experience what you describe is an extremely rare occurrence.
(Yes, I know, modded, but biters and turret range are vanilla.)
And at worst, in behemoth worm range of your turrets - but not vice-versa - requiring quick intervention :

But then in vanilla you SHOULD have or be planning to have artillery at this point - and it's too early to be talking of behemoth balance when we know so little of the expansion yet.

[morhp]

But with artillery and spidertron, these challanges disappear too early.

How come, genuinely curious, that you consider that artillery makes it disappear? Artillery is what makes it reliable in the first place.
Without artillery there is no way in vanilla to have autonomous base defense.

I assume they will have thought about this and adding other features that could possibly help with base defence, maybe a longer range stationary turret, maybe defence robot patrols, or maybe just changes in biter behaviour that stops infinite respawning. Or something else, who knows...

[mcdjfp]

Add me to the list of people concerned about delaying cliff explosives. It just isn't fun trying to build any sort of organized factory without them. I tried, and now I usually detour to cliff explosives as soon as it is reasonable. If they are delayed significantly, the cliffs are getting turned down to a least 1/10th the present default amount. Maybe consider limiting automated use of cliff explosives (cliff removal) as opposed to delaying them completely. Making early cliff removal more expensive would be another possibility.

Everything else seems pretty good, or at least has very strong potential to be good.

[Chindraba]

Artillery: Having the habit of building too large too fast and loosing the war with UPS, I've never yet gotten to the point of automating the perimeter much at all. The medium, big, and behemoth worms, however, have always been a manual-intervention issue. Other than them beasties the walls, sufficiently stocked with ammo, seem to have held well even with poor planning.

The latest revelation that the base defense will have to be self-maintained for extended periods while foreign planets are dealt with, makes the loss of artillery seem critical. With a year's worth, more or less, of FFFs to go we may learn of planned alternatives. If there's a new MK2 version of some of the turrets, or all three, which makes the target range at least match, if not exceed by a few tiles, the range of the behemoth worms, careful planning and provisioning could return the ability to have fully automated defenses without the artillery. Or, perhaps, a new ammo type for the guns and a new fuel for the flamethrowers which extend the range to the needed level. Last option, in my preferences, yet possible, is a technology to bump the range of turrets, collectively or by class, until it reaches the needed level.

My current best tactic, pale by experienced players I'm sure, is to use flamethrowers about 10 tiles inside the outer wall, giving me just enough range to hit behemoth spitters when they have the walls in their range. I loose a wall now and then, but nothing serious and will within the abilities of the repair bots.

Spawners settling too close to the walls and causing the spawned bitters/spitters to target the wall in the random wanderings would be a resource drain, yet just be part of the extra puzzle to solve for long-term self-run automation.

[aka13]

But then in vanilla you SHOULD have or be planning to have artillery at this point - and it's too early to be talking of behemoth balance when we know so little of the expansion yet.

Well, I experience the thing I describe on every marathon run - over the last 5 years it was maybe 5 runs, but in each of them it happened.
I only use flamers, so I can't comment on other turrets, but what happens is that the flamer aggroes biters, but does not kill the spawner. This leads to a non-stop attack quickly chewing threw your defensive ressources.

Last time I saw it happen was in a SE game, funnily enough while I was in space, leading to the exact situation I am afraid of. It was blue biters mixed with the medium at that point, and spending ressources to get back to the surface to fight them felt really wasteful.
Luckily for me, I had 5 equipped laser tanks from AAI in the depth of the base, and their guns had that bit extra range needed to get the biters from across the wall.

If I did not install the AAI package, I would have been forced to abort space, face a significat setback, and "deal with it". It would've been really unpleasant.

[aka13]

Also, on the same note, it was such a pain, that at the point where I already obviously need automated defenses, I don't have requester chests, so I don't have ANY reasonable way to commission perimeter defense trains, because I need about 6-8 different items in miniscule amounts, and routing belts for them is going to take longer than placing obnoxious amounts by hand on every wall segment, and rushing space.

> Bots are bad, mkay :^)
This shitstorm is coming again, I remember both previous, and it will be worse, should official balance be the same as SE.

I assume they will have thought about this and adding other features that could possibly help with base defence, maybe a longer range stationary turret, maybe defence robot patrols, or maybe just changes in biter behaviour that stops infinite respawning. Or something else, who knows...

I hope so, certainly. SImply removing arty and saying "this is masochist not for everyone content" would be a rather sad scenario.

[BlueTemplar]

Hmm, I guess it was REALLY noticeable to you because you couldn't intervene directly, while I just quickly dealt with it manually and forgot about it ? the cases where behemoth worms were firing at my base were more concerning/memorable ?

Oh, also, in my experience biters only start settling this close to walls once they have already saturated the space beyond, giving us extra time... (Also why it was such a surprise to me when they started «besieging» me, since at that point behemoths had been unlocked for many hours already.)

[Slasherbane]

I just can't wait for it !! i want to build a solar system spaceship to harvest everthing XD . But i don't know if earendel would update is own mod after the release . I hope...so he could bring more !. ( now is mod is actually a real and cool challenge )