Friday Facts #375 - Quality

[nadarith]

So just to confirm, after rereading the FFF several times and staring at the probability table it seems to mean that the chance of the higher grade product is directly proportional to the grade of the components when fully stocked with quality 3 modules?

it seems that you start with what is essentially product binning with just one or few quality modules, where the module itself essentially raises the grade of the products produced but with just a couple of them this is really just a 'one out of dozens' type situation as your machine is still not all that good at the higher quality stuff, and if i understand the 'emission' of quality from components and the table it would seem complicated products get less and less likely to be a higher grade that way so its best reserved for raw materials and simple intermediaries (both for more likely result and to take advantage of the law of large numbers to eliminate the RNG via sheer statistics)

but later on, when every component is a specified grade and all machines have quality 3 mods it becomes nothing more than basic quality control at the endpoint as grade reaches 1/1 probability for such a product

did i get it right or did i miss something?

[Losash]

Yeah, after reading for the first 3 pages of this thread, I kinda lost faith in smartness of Factorio players.
All those haters better re-read the blog post syllable by syllable. Maybe then digest that:
1) system is completely optional;
2) actual quality values only matter at the start of the journey, later in the game only first and last will actually matter outside of incapsulated production blocks, so recipes and designs are nowhere close to x5, it's more like you either produce 1st quality for rocket launches/research/ect, or last quality for the mall and modules;
3) speedrunners will be fine as they won't even touch this system, and this is even mentioned in the blog itself. It's much faster to just place more machines than start the complexity to produce qualities.

Great change devs.
I agree with only one thing. Names are questionable. This game is not a dragon slayer RPG and I wonder how those names even made it up into the game if you've discussed them with the team obviously.

[Losash]

Maybe then digest that:

Oh and forgot to mention very important missconseption:
4) if it feels like "randomness introduced into the game fuuuuuu" then you probably have to up your game, because all the intermediate qualities and chances can be nullified using simple splitters and back-loops, developers even made it so combinators are not necessary.

[Probe1]

This would have been a great april fools joke but instead it's just a stupid idea that you guys spent a lot of development time on.

[FuryoftheStars]

Person who works in real factory here (solar panels). Quality/performance is absolutely variable part-to-part and we heavily lean on statistics to understand the distribution of performance for the parts we make each day. It is impossible to make every single part the exact same with the same performance/quality due to random variables outside of our control.

Yes and no.

Absolutely correct, each one will not perform exactly like the rest. But they will all fall within a tolerance range. You're not going to have some that perform 2-3x better than others, or even 50% better, unless you're dealing with a very low quality product. Higher quailty products (which come about both from higher quality parts and manufacturing processes) can perform better than lower quality products, and will typically have tighter variances in their performance from one to another.

But the new quality system does match how CPUs work in the real world. A 3.2, 3.4, and 3.7Ghz CPU of the same family is the same thing made on the same equipment. But when they stress test, some can run faster than others. So they sell those at a higher price point. So the 3.7Ghz CPU is like a Legendary circuit.

Most factory production processes have an advertised spec with +/- tolerances. Depending on what's being manufactured, anything that comes off the assembly line that can't be made to fit these specs they either scrap, or they rebrand and sell it as a lower grade product. They attempt to minimize this, though, as this is actually a loss of potential profits for them.

[KuuLightwing]

I wanna tackle the "system is optional" claim again as it keeps being repeated over and over.

It's not a valid defense against criticism. Many people who dislike the system aren't saying it because they think they are forced to use it (though some do make that mistake), they are saying it because they want to have an additional system for vertical progression in the game, but don't like this specific implementation. So, "option" to not use it comes with the caveat of not getting a vertical progression system, which might be fairly important for something you want to achieve.

And besides, it's said to be optional in the following context:

It's also worth noting that while it's a lot of fun to play with quality, using it is completely optional. The expansion is balanced in a way that using quality can be beneficial, but it is reasonable to finish the game without touching quality at all. Typically, people who want to just finish the game are more likely to not touch quality much, while those who want to build a big factory will have very good reasons to use it.

So, it is optional if you want to finish the game. If you want to go further than that - which is usually a big portion of players in Factorio, it's, well less optional, as I explained, and as indirectly confirmed by this quote.

[FuryoftheStars]

Since the MAJORITY FOR SOME REASON CANNOT READ let me post this

UNTIL THE RESEARCH IS COMPLETE NOTHING HAS QUALITY

Yeah, after reading for the first 3 pages of this thread, I kinda lost faith in smartness of Factorio players.
All those haters better re-read the blog post syllable by syllable. Maybe then digest that:
1) system is completely optional;

The complaints are because for those that don't like it, this would be seen as a waste of their money for a feature that they then won't use.

[Losash]

The complaints are because for those that don't like it, this would be seen as a waste of their money for a feature that they then won't use.

Really? Waste of your money? Reality check: every single hater will still buy the Expansion even if it will cost 50 bucks, because objectively game is great and content expansion (any) which natively fits into the base game (unlike mods) is great. It's so easy to hate for any reason, even such a stupid one as "I don't use a mechanic because I'm overwhelmed so I should not pay for it"?

Why not quoting my second argument? People don't understand how to use this system is their problem. By the way, logic network and combinators left the chat, because noone payed for those features.

[Pirate_Rance]

Since the MAJORITY FOR SOME REASON CANNOT READ let me post this

UNTIL THE RESEARCH IS COMPLETE NOTHING HAS QUALITY

Yeah, after reading for the first 3 pages of this thread, I kinda lost faith in smartness of Factorio players.
All those haters better re-read the blog post syllable by syllable. Maybe then digest that:
1) system is completely optional;

The complaints are because for those that don't like it, this would be seen as a waste of their money for a feature that they then won't use.

OH SHIT GREAT RETORT

Same with when they COMPLETELY REDID THE GAME, or WHEN MODULES WERE ADDED. Were you complaining then? Cause if not then your retort is MEANINGLESS.

[FuryoftheStars]

Really? Waste of your money? Reality check: every single hater will still buy the Expansion even if it will cost 50 bucks

That's not a "reality check". That's a "your opinion".

Why not quoting my second argument?

Because I'm only discussing the part I quoted.

OH SHIT GREAT RETORT

Same with when they COMPLETELY REDID THE GAME, or WHEN MODULES WERE ADDED. Were you complaining then? Cause if not then your retort is MEANINGLESS.

I wasn't around for those changes. When I picked up the game, I believe beacons were already a thing. I did argue against other things, though, like the removal of the pickaxe, the removal of the obstacle avoidance in ghost planning mode for tracks (which the devs reverted after we argued against it long enough), and the change in oil - which was the straw that caused me to drop this game for a year or two, though my money was already invested at this point (and I was able to mod it back), hence why I eventually came back. The expansion is a different story, though. I have dropped other games that I was already invested in and/or did not purchase their expansions because of design/change decisions that I didn't like.

[gentulf]

Labels of quality should be changed — current ones describe rarity not quality, e. g “Legendary” should be something like “Perfect”. The current naming scheme is rather immersion-breaking.

[Losash]

That's not a "reality check". That's a "your opinion".

That was a reality check. "Your opinion" is that it's "my oppinion" that everyone would still buy, because the game is great and will have tons of new content apart from this quality system. There is still 40+ blogposts to come about what's new in the Expansion. Brace yourself to provide your "valuable" threats of you dropping the game in the all upcoming posts.

Hearing you couldn't figure out how to crack oil properly and "modding back" was a huge scream of laughter moment from me. I guess if you won't be able to afford Expansion day one premium edition battle pass you will mod yourself a higher-paycheck job. I'm really supposed to believe a 2k forum posts will "drop the game"...

[Xorimuth]

This is single handedly the worst addition idea I have seen in any games I play this is a nightmare for any big factory especially if you are one to set up building optimization quickly because you cant limit storage easily as they probably cant stack not to mention your optimization will be thrown off as you will have to accommodate the extra resources if you want more vertical growth add more levels to the miner production research and add higher tier assembly or add a "assembler speed" research to do it. This is just a nightmare and I will personally learn how to mod just to make a mod to remove this feature if you add it.

Only places where you use quality modules will output items of higher quality. It won’t change existing big factories at all.

[Phantom329]

I don't like this at all. I've always hated when games had random quality levels when crafting things. Levels of things like assemblers and modules are great.

Also, I know I can turn this off but the feature will take up resources from development.

[FuryoftheStars]

That's not a "reality check". That's a "your opinion".

That was a reality check. "Your opinion" is that it's "my oppinion" that everyone would still buy

You made a blanket statement, which by definition, is inherently wrong. So I'm calling it an opinion.

Hearing you couldn't figure out how to crack oil properly and "modding back" was a huge scream of laughter moment from me.

The change was to simplify it for those that couldn't properly figure out how to deal with the excess fluids, thus cracking is not relevant under the new system until AOP. I modded it back to being more complex, requiring management of excess fluids with BOP, where cracking is actually relevant before AOP.

[...] There is still 40+ blogposts to come about what's new in the Expansion. Brace yourself to provide your "valuable" threats of you dropping the game in the all upcoming posts.

[...] I guess if you won't be able to afford Expansion day one premium edition battle pass you will mod yourself a higher-paycheck job. I'm really supposed to believe a 2k forum posts will "drop the game"...

Never said that I couldn't afford it. I also have never said yet that I'm not going to buy the expansion or drop the game. I'm fully aware that there's still more to be revealed, hence I am waiting on that before making a final decision. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if I got a million bucks in the bank and the expansion costs $1. If I dislike enough of the content in the expansion, I won't purchase it.

I'm merely saying the fact that "it's optional" is not a valid counter argument.

[Pirate_Rance]

Never said that I couldn't afford it. I also have never said yet that I'm not going to buy the expansion or drop the game. I'm fully aware that there's still more to be revealed, hence I am waiting on that before making a final decision. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if I got a million bucks in the bank and the expansion costs $1. If I dislike enough of the content in the expansion, I won't purchase it.

I'm merely saying the fact that "it's optional" is not a valid counter argument.

If I am understanding your logic then as I do not use Bots or Nuclear power I should not have to pay full price as I dont think that should be in the game and are (in your own words) a waste of dev time.

[Pirate_Rance]

I don't like this at all. I've always hated when games had random quality levels when crafting things. Levels of things like assemblers and modules are great.

Also, I know I can turn this off but the feature will take up resources from development.

Please REREAD the FFF THIS FEATURE was developed and near complete PRE 1.0

[FuryoftheStars]

Never said that I couldn't afford it. I also have never said yet that I'm not going to buy the expansion or drop the game. I'm fully aware that there's still more to be revealed, hence I am waiting on that before making a final decision. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if I got a million bucks in the bank and the expansion costs $1. If I dislike enough of the content in the expansion, I won't purchase it.

I'm merely saying the fact that "it's optional" is not a valid counter argument.

If I am understanding your logic then as I do not use Bots or Nuclear power I should not have to pay full price as I dont think that should be in the game and are (in your own words) a waste of dev time.

No, you are not understanding my logic. If there is enough content to the expansion that I do not like, then I will simply not purchase the expansion. Plain and simple.

[Pirate_Rance]

Never said that I couldn't afford it. I also have never said yet that I'm not going to buy the expansion or drop the game. I'm fully aware that there's still more to be revealed, hence I am waiting on that before making a final decision. Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter if I got a million bucks in the bank and the expansion costs $1. If I dislike enough of the content in the expansion, I won't purchase it.

I'm merely saying the fact that "it's optional" is not a valid counter argument.

If I am understanding your logic then as I do not use Bots or Nuclear power I should not have to pay full price as I dont think that should be in the game and are (in your own words) a waste of dev time.

No, you are not understanding my logic. If there is enough content to the expansion that I do not like, then I will simply not purchase the expansion. Plain and simple.

This legit makes you sound really REALLY entitled. It sounds like if you bought a box of stuff and it had extra in it you would return it cause it wasnt exactly how you wanted it. You sound like you demand the expansion ONLY have what you want in it and nothing else.

[mmmPI]

No, you are not understanding my logic. If there is enough content to the expansion that I do not like, then I will simply not purchase the expansion. Plain and simple.

This legit makes you sound really REALLY entitled. It sounds like if you bought a box of stuff and it had extra in it you would return it cause it wasnt exactly how you wanted it. You sound like you demand the expansion ONLY have what you want in it and nothing else.

hey hey humans calm down ! x) the purchase decision is a personnal one, i'd rather hope people buy it if there is things they like in it, but i can understand someone not wanting to buy it, even if there is stuff they like, because they think there is mostly things they dislike, it make perfect sense not to buy a game if there is only 1% you like.