Friday Facts #378 - Trains on another level

[Tricorius]

A two-year-old could play it to completion, and never be frustrated. Even with the mods I have installed like Space Exploration, which don't really make it more difficult, just more of a slog.

You live around some pretty impressive two year olds.

I just can't take any posts seriously.

(Also, arguing about whether you define a game in a given genre or not is pretty pedantic. And arguing for free updates for Factorio, of all games, is just inane. WUBE should be De-facto standard for adding value to a video game. They have given multiple docs worth of free content over the years; they've just never actually called any of it a DLC until now. And I'm happy to pay for it.)

[Saphira123456]

3. This game is not a puzzle game, despite what the developers say, and never was. As mmmPI said, "puzzle" is just something the developers tagged the game with because "automation" didn't attract people's eyes. It has no puzzle elements and never did.

I never said that, the game is a puzzle game, and has always been due to it having lots of puzzle element that's what i said. I suggested maybe you don't understand what if refered to by "puzzle game" which i think you further confirm. I am not the one who mentionned the dev tagging the game with "puzzle". I said that Factorio defined the genre "automation" and as such the term couldn't be used initially to describe factorio because it wouldn't have brought anything to people's mind. Whereas now it's the reference.

You sound like trolling

My apologies, it appears I mistook you for someone else, because someone DID say that.

I do not troll.

[Saphira123456]

I disagree. I play other games like this, especially Satisfactory, and there really isn't any puzzle to it, nor any challenge in any game like it. The biggest challenge is keeping your eyes open and finding ways to pass the time while your factory stockpiles research materials and components, agonizingly slowly. If you have biters turned on, then that's one solution but it still doesn't change the fact that this game has no real puzzle or challenge to it.

Once you get your initial setup of copper, iron and coal set up, you're all set. At that point, Factorio pretty much becomes an idle game.

It sounds like you hate every aspect of Factorio gameplay, so why the hell are you begging for free DLC for a game you don't even like? It also sounds like you don't even understand how to play it. Your factory doesn't build itself unless you've downloaded someone else's blueprints and negated the whole game for yourself. Which some people do for some inexplicable reason, but it's not much different from playing games with cheat codes. You have only yourself to blame if you spoil your own game.

Why are your experiences with other factory games relevant? Satisfactory notably differs from Factorio in its 3rd dimension, which does indeed strip away any puzzle elements of trying to fit things together. With the 3rd dimension you can trivially fit anything with anything, so there is indeed no puzzle aspect. When constrained to just 2 dimensions it's not so easy to get things from where they are to where they need to be. There are light puzzle elements to designing a complex build in Factorio, more than in Satisfactory.

If your Factory is taking a long time to stockpile stuff, you built it to small, and you should be scaling it instead of idling. Effective scaling introduces some new challenges over a tiny factory that just automates the bare minimum of each thing. It's a logistics game, and you don't need to worry about efficient logistics if you're content to just have a slow factory and wait for it.

First off, when did I EVER say that I wanted free DLC? Or start begging? Answer: I didn't, so don't insult me by falsely claiming I did.

I merely want them to make the quality-of-life stuff (recycler, elevated rails) part of the base game instead of asking for us to pay for said quality-of-life. I FULLY intend to pay for the DLC, I just wish the QoL stuff I mentioned would be changed to the base game.

Second, I adore Factorio, it's just that vanilla Factorio lacks certain quality of life items like recyclers, ways to move over water, and ways to get rid of unwanted items like liquids, which can cause a log jam if they're constantly being created and not used. I have literally had to install mods such as the Flare Stack to get rid of these things as there's no way to do so in vanilla.

There's also the fact that in vanilla, upgrading an item doesn't remove the item you're upgrading, it just replaces it and puts the old one back in your inventory. I have had to use mods to take care of the sheer number of old inserters or assembly machines I get when replacing them, by recycling the old machines into their component parts so they can be reused.

There are lots of other examples of situations like this in the game. It is a pain in the rear, and one most other factory games have a way to solve. Captain of Industry, for example, has the ability to dump unwanted byproducts in the sea or in landfill pits. Vanilla Factorio is unique in that it has no way to get rid of byproducts you don't want, or to recycle structures like inserters, furnaces and assemblers back into their component parts, until the DLC comes out. And even then you will be forced to buy the DLC if you want to utilize these features.

And you're damn right the factory doesn't build itself. I build every inch of what I make, so I understand VERY well how to play it. I don't even USE blueprints, or robots. I build every single structure myself, and automate the rest.


Third, the hardest part is waiting for the science packs to get done building/stockpiling. That's the idle part: Waiting for science packs to build up and then process through to advance you through the tech tree. I literally have to leave the game running overnight to build up science packs. I have no problem with anything else.

And I disagree entirely about the puzzle elements. I usually have NO trouble getting things to fit in between other things, so long as I leave a minimum of space beforehand. If you're capable of thinking ahead, leaving space for more conveyor belts, then there are no puzzle elements to be found in Factorio, whatsoever.

[Saphira123456]

A two-year-old could play it to completion, and never be frustrated. Even with the mods I have installed like Space Exploration, which don't really make it more difficult, just more of a slog.

You live around some pretty impressive two year olds.

Slight exaggeration on my part. Apologies.

Point is, you don't exactly have to be an Einstein to play Factorio or its' more complicated mods.

[mmmPI]

Slight exaggeration on my part. Point is, you don't have to be an Einstein to play Factorio or its' more complicated mods.

No but seeing you complaining about needing to let the computer run overnight to stockpile science and alleviate the waiting "idle game" makes me think you are most likely not getting everything right.

[Saphira123456]

Slight exaggeration on my part. Point is, you don't have to be an Einstein to play Factorio or its' more complicated mods.

No but seeing you complaining about needing to let the computer run overnight to stockpile science and alleviate the waiting "idle game" makes me think you are most likely not getting everything right.

It's not just running it overnight though. Sometimes there are long stretches where I literally have nothing to do except wait. And that's true for this game AND Satisfactory.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. It's just that it needs a little something extra - like vanilla recyclers and vanilla elevated trains - to make it better.

[FuryoftheStars]

1. Fair point, but it disregards my point

Yes, it does disregard your point because your point boils down to "but they did it" and mine is "just because they did doesn't mean everyone can or that it's appropriate for everyone". That aside, it is the dev's prerogative on how they'll handle it.

2. I can in fact do these things in my sleep [...] Because of this, the puzzle aspect simply isn't there for me.

This game is not a puzzle game, despite what the developers say, and never was. [...] It has no puzzle elements and never did.

Well, as I said, just because it's that easy for you that it seems like it's not there doesn't mean it isn't. What you're saying is like working on a jigsaw puzzle and it being such a breeze for you that you claim it's not actually a "puzzle".

3. The mod Abarel suggested adds a building that is bloody-freaking HUGE, with enough space for no less than FOUR input conveyors plus space for a couple of connected chests in the corners, so just finding the space for the dang thing in a tightly-packed factory is a problem. Additionally, that mod is only useful for ores as it is, though you can enable iron plates and other things in the mod.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that mod, but they're not that big? They're 4x4 entities, so they actually take up significantly less space than doing a double-sided 6 inserter-to-chest setup (6x6) while being significantly faster (able to unload at 720 items/sec with max inserter stack capacity research, which is more than enough to keep 12 express loaders (the max you could connect to these) fully compressed (540 items/sec)).

That said, I think the best way to get the devs attention on it (and place to continue discussion) would be a suggestion thread in the Ideas and Suggestions subforum. (Interestingly, too, a cursory search through there did not find any existing threads. I find that surprising, but I may be using the wrong keywords.)

I merely want them to make the quality-of-life stuff (recycler, elevated rails)

Erm, but they're not really QoL stuff. They make life a bit easier in some ways, yes, but only in that they are simplifying some of the puzzles and challenges of the game. They are, in fact, new features.

--------------------------------

People talking about dlc are completely wrong [...] This is an expansion

Yes, you are correct. I was using DLC kind of universally here, but really what the devs are doing here isn't a true DLC. It is a full blown Expansion of old.

[mmmPI]

It's not just running it overnight though. Sometimes there are long stretches where I literally have nothing to do except wait. And that's true for this game AND Satisfactory.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. It's just that it needs a little something extra - like vanilla recyclers and vanilla elevated trains - to make it better.

The most important is having fun

But when i read that you have long stretches of literally waiting, i think you may not be experiencing the game as it was designed by the devs, maybe that is also part of why you don't see any puzzle and think the game is easy if you do nothing and wait super long. As part of the game for me is to make a better factory to avoid doing nothing but waiting. That means making the production faster, more efficient, more trains, which involves junctions, and leave me with no "time to wait" since i'm always trying to improve one thing or another as succession of little puzzle.

[Saphira123456]

1. Fair point, but it disregards my point

Yes, it does disregard your point because your point boils down to "but they did it" and mine is "just because they did doesn't mean everyone can or that it's appropriate for everyone". That aside, it is the dev's prerogative on how they'll handle it.

2. I can in fact do these things in my sleep [...] Because of this, the puzzle aspect simply isn't there for me.

This game is not a puzzle game, despite what the developers say, and never was. [...] It has no puzzle elements and never did.

Well, as I said, just because it's that easy for you that it seems like it's not there doesn't mean it isn't. What you're saying is like working on a jigsaw puzzle and it being such a breeze for you that you claim it's not actually a "puzzle".

3. The mod Abarel suggested adds a building that is bloody-freaking HUGE, with enough space for no less than FOUR input conveyors plus space for a couple of connected chests in the corners, so just finding the space for the dang thing in a tightly-packed factory is a problem. Additionally, that mod is only useful for ores as it is, though you can enable iron plates and other things in the mod.

Yeah, I'm familiar with that mod, but they're not that big? They're 4x4 entities, so they actually take up significantly less space than doing a double-sided 6 inserter-to-chest setup (6x6) while being significantly faster (able to unload at 720 items/sec with max inserter stack capacity research, which is more than enough to keep 12 express loaders (the max you could connect to these) fully compressed (540 items/sec)).

That said, I think the best way to get the devs attention on it (and place to continue discussion) would be a suggestion thread in the Ideas and Suggestions subforum. (Interestingly, too, a cursory search through there did not find any existing threads. I find that surprising, but I may be using the wrong keywords.)

I merely want them to make the quality-of-life stuff (recycler, elevated rails)

Erm, but they're not really QoL stuff. They make life a bit easier in some ways, yes, but only in that they are simplifying some of the puzzles and challenges of the game. They are, in fact, new features.

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You have a point, I shall switch this discussion to the Ideas and Suggestions subforum.

[ekisacik]

Echoing what others have said about being able to recolor the ramps freely, I think it makes sense given the train also starts out at the same base red (it could even borrow the recoloring system from it, ideally )

this looks impressive as hell and VERY fun to play around with...

[michelguenette]

I have not read every reply that was posted, but I heard on JDPlays stream about the '20 tiles' limit for stretches of straight rail that must be kept up using supports. In a different reply, someone mentioned '20 rail tiles'. Now, I need a bit of clarification.

Are we talking about 20 [terrain] tiles from centre to centre of the supports?
OR
Are we talking about 20 rail segment [tiles] (= 40 terrain tiles) from centre to centre of the supports?

If the former, then that will be a lot of supports. If the latter, then why not make it 16 rail segments, so that the supports could be part of a single chunk? (Easier for creating tileable blueprints.)

Was it just easier to come up with a single number that makes sense, because the 13-tile radius curve is the harder constraint to manage?

[Pi-C]

2B: As in real life, loose materials are those like coal, iron ore, gears, screws... small components and other items that you want a LOT of. Another term would be "bulk materials". Larger items like inserters, conveyor belt segments, entire locomotives and train cars, assemblers, etcetera are not "loose".

You misunderstand. Internally, ore is no different from locomotives (as items). There is no concept of size or weight, so how do you differentiate?

A flag like "bulk_item" in the item prototype definition would help. Even if it wasn't used in vanilla, such a flag would make it possible for mods like Bulk Rail Loader to only load/unload reasonable items.

[FuryoftheStars]

2B: As in real life, loose materials are those like coal, iron ore, gears, screws... small components and other items that you want a LOT of. Another term would be "bulk materials". Larger items like inserters, conveyor belt segments, entire locomotives and train cars, assemblers, etcetera are not "loose".

You misunderstand. Internally, ore is no different from locomotives (as items). There is no concept of size or weight, so how do you differentiate?

A flag like "bulk_item" in the item prototype definition would help. Even if it wasn't used in vanilla, such a flag would make it possible for mods like Bulk Rail Loader to only load/unload reasonable items.

Yeah, that's already been covered and a couple other posts since.

[Khagan]

No, actually there's no puzzle aspect whatsoever in this game. So no, I don't understand why other people call factorio a puzzle game because it is very clearly not.

In fact, after you get your initial iron, copper and coal set up, it actually becomes more of an idle game.

Factorio is not 'a puzzle game': it's a builder, and a genre-defining automation game. But it definitely has puzzle aspects, especially when you try to build in a compact and efficient fashion. If you don't care about efficiency, then perhaps those puzzle aspects are less obvious to you.

There may be no 'wrong way' to play the game, but playing it as an idler comes close. The essence of an idler is that there is often nothing you can do except wait; there is (almost) always something you can do in Factorio, and usually several things. If science production is the bottleneck, expand your science factory. If that requires that you first supply more raw materials, then go and build some mines. If the ore patches you want to mine are, shall we say, occupied, then go bug hunting, and build out some new defences. Busy, busy, busy, always busy!

[Pi-C]

Yeah, that's already been covered and a couple other posts since.

I've been reading the thread totally exhausted last night after helping friends for about 10 hrs moving stuff to their new apartment. Just managed to start writing my reply, but fell asleep halfway through and only sent it off this morning. So, yeah, I've noticed the suggestion has already come up on the new pages that have been posted while I was in dream land.

[boskid]

I have not read every reply that was posted, but I heard on JDPlays stream about the '20 tiles' limit for stretches of straight rail that must be kept up using supports. In a different reply, someone mentioned '20 rail tiles'. Now, I need a bit of clarification.

Are we talking about 20 [terrain] tiles from centre to centre of the supports?
OR
Are we talking about 20 rail segment [tiles] (= 40 terrain tiles) from centre to centre of the supports?

If the former, then that will be a lot of supports. If the latter, then why not make it 16 rail segments, so that the supports could be part of a single chunk? (Easier for creating tileable blueprints.)

Was it just easier to come up with a single number that makes sense, because the 13-tile radius curve is the harder constraint to manage?

AFAIK numbers about "20" and "quarter circle" were told by JG which may give you some rough estimates from his playtesting experience. Exact mechanic for rail support distance is slightly more numbers involved but relatively simple:
- elevated-straight-rail has a length of 2 (equals to 2.00 required support distance)
- elevated-half-diagonal-rail has a length of 4.472135955 (equals to 4.48 required support distance)
- elevated-curved-a-rail has a length of 5.132284556 (equals to 5.14 required support distance)
- elevated-curved-b-rail has a length of 5.077891568 (equals to 5.08 required support distance)
- rail-ramp provides support distance of 9. Since rail-ramp is a rail itself, this value is measured from the upper rail connection point. Visually you may see the rail support baked into rail ramp graphics, its center is 2 tiles away from the elevated connection point, so that means when counting support distance from visible baked in support center, it would be 11 tiles support distance (2 is immediately consumed by the rail ramp, only 9 distance is remaining)
- rail-support provides support distance of 11 measuring from the rail support center.

Now that all the numbers are given, the mechanic as i implemented it for elevated rails is following:
A rail is considered supported when traveling from either of its ends (without reversing at junction points) a support is found within a distance so that "my required support distance"(aka "my length") + "support distance of rails between the support position" is lower that the support provided. That can be more easily read as: "there exists a support for which my entire length is within support distance".

That explains why the supports needs to be placed every quarter of a circle: when it is placed at main direction or major diagonals, from each side a rail support will support 1 elevated-curved-a-rail and 1 elevated curved-b-rail which in total requires 10.22 support distance, so those are within reach. This rail support cannot hold rails farther than that because there is only 0.78 support distance remaining and there are no such short rail pieces and a rail has to be fully supported from one side only. Rail support provides support in both directions so each of the 4 supports will hold 4 rails total of such circle. When a rail support is placed at minor diagonal, from one side it will be holding 2 elevated-curve-a-rail pieces for a total of 10.28 support distance which the support can hold as it provides 11 support distance, from the other side that rail support will hold 2 elevated-curve-b-rail pieces with a total of 10.16 support distance, also within support distance reach.

From those numbers you may see that with straight rails involved, a rail support can hold up to 5 elevated-straight-rails (requiring 10 rail support distance total) from each side but it cannot hold 6. Next to a rail ramp, there can be at most 4 elevated-straight-rail pieces (requiring 8 rail support distance) from the elevated rail piece side as the ramp provides 9 support distance. You cannot create 1/8th of a circle starting at a ramp since that would require curve-a and curve-b rails pieces with 10.21 required support distance while the ramp only provides 9.

Since the support condition is rail-distance based, it is possible that a single support will hold more rails if there are splits involved, but still all rails have to be entirely within support distance as measured from any of the support points.

[mmmPI]

Thank you for providing those details in a very clear way feels like reading the little things that goes at the bottom of every manual

[Mooncat]

TRAIN BRIDGE!!!!
TRAIN BRIDGE!!!!
TRAIN BRIDGE!!!!


One more thing...

ElectricLocomotive.png (2.7 MiB) Viewed 3522 times

[jodokus31]

It's not just running it overnight though. Sometimes there are long stretches where I literally have nothing to do except wait. And that's true for this game AND Satisfactory.

Don't get me wrong, I love the game. It's just that it needs a little something extra - like vanilla recyclers and vanilla elevated trains - to make it better.

The most important is having fun

But when i read that you have long stretches of literally waiting, i think you may not be experiencing the game as it was designed by the devs, maybe that is also part of why you don't see any puzzle and think the game is easy if you do nothing and wait super long. As part of the game for me is to make a better factory to avoid doing nothing but waiting. That means making the production faster, more efficient, more trains, which involves junctions, and leave me with no "time to wait" since i'm always trying to improve one thing or another as succession of little puzzle.

That are exactly my thoughts.
IMO, If you have to wait for something and have nothing else to do in factorio, you didn't max out the potential. And I also say that for SeaBlock, which is big example for many, that you have to play the waiting game. However, esp. with SeaBlock, you can maneuver yourself into a situation, where you can't do anything, but wait. But that's an example to not max out the potential and revisit the strategy.

The other aspect of factorio is that you CAN wait/you can leave things alone, when everything is automated. In the end, you want the factory to produce the things without handholding, while expanding other parts.

[Mathematician]

As a spaghetti enjoyer and train enjoyer I'm pleased to see these news.
Do trains change color based on loaded cargo?