Friday Facts #375 - Quality

[Tertius]

I'm less than enthused by 'quality' items. (The bureaucracy expanded to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy to become more efficient.)

There are interesting and strangely addicting games that deal with growth, especially exponential growth, for example Universal Paperclips. You start by creating one paperclip manually and end up with converting the whole universe into paperclips a few game hours later (my best time was 2.5 hours, if I remember correctly). It's all about exponential growth and finding the ever moving sweet spots in the production pipeline.

What this principle has in common with Factorio is this "the factory must grow". The larger, the better. Quality of items helps with this. Essentially, you're creating the same items the whole game, but on a higher level. More of them. That's strangely interesting and addicting. Why do you need different tiers of items? Why do you need a megabase? To get a feeling of advancement. Establishing quality and the growth connected with it is no different. What's different with it, is that it's a new challenge to handle, not just the 4th, 5th, 6th tier of the same thing. And that's a real good concept, because by adding new, yet unseen challenges, it increases the depth and scope of the game and not just prolong it by making it repetitious and tedious.

If you're not interested in this part of Factorio, ignore quality. It's not made for you.
Similar to all the military stuff and weapons not being made for me, because I can't stand being attacked and my factories destroyed, so I'm just switching off enemies at map creation. It's just a part of the game I'm not interested in.

[tufoed]

It makes me a bit confused. Ok, I can understand what difference makes quality to an assembler or module. And at least i can see some logic in it. But what is legendary gear or epic green circuit? What can it do, that common item cannot? It replaces 2/3/5 of a kind in a recipe? No, it is just needed to craft new legendary/epic item (engine or red circuit), or finally an epic assembler. IMO, it is an unnecessary complication, and mainly for no purpose. I would prefer some other way of making quality machines. May be, machine can be upgradeed after making a ton of production (whis is realised in some mods, afaik), or, you can make an optional step of quality testing (that may be done in a specific machine, or in ordinary assembler). I believe, quality testing is more in a canvas of factorio. And of course naming like rare or legendary is awful! We don't want our beloved automated hi-tech factory to become some fantasy minecraftish unicorn-driven manufacture!
UPD. And about recycler. It might be useful, but i think it's goal should be achieved in other ways. The main use i can see is to disassemble some early game items, that become just useless mid-game, and totally trash in late-game. Instead i prefer them to be used in a recipes for a replacement items, like tier 1 assembler is part of tier 2, and tier 2 assembler is part of tier 3. Why not make furnaces, inserters and burner drills behave the same way? Why not make steam boiler to be part of nuclear boiler and steam turbine part of nuclear turbine? It's part of many mods and its great. You can even make power poles upgrade the same way.

[FuryoftheStars]

What's different with it, is that it's a new challenge to handle, not just the 4th, 5th, 6th tier of the same thing. And that's a real good concept, because by adding new, yet unseen challenges, it increases the depth and scope of the game and not just prolong it by making it repetitious and tedious.

I don't see it as any different or more of a "challenge" than what we already have. I mean, the only thing with this that adds more complexity is the gambling aspect, really, and it's not that much complexity. The last video in the FFF shows pretty much the ideal loop concept.

What I do think, though, is that it may result in some annoyances, as you can no longer tell which things are better at a glance without having Alt-mode enabled, and it will further clutter Alt-mode. (I am reserving a bit of judgement here, though, as I realize screenshots can be hard to see exactly how it'll look in person.)

If you're not interested in this part of Factorio, ignore quality. It's not made for you.
Similar to all the military stuff and weapons not being made for me, because I can't stand being attacked and my factories destroyed, so I'm just switching off enemies at map creation. It's just a part of the game I'm not interested in.

I'm not sure that the ability to continue growing your factory past "game finish" is quite comparable to enemies. Having enemies on or off doesn't prevent you from doing anything, really. Quality, or any other tiered system, on the other hand, does affect this.

[Joriom]

I have only two questions.

1) Since quality is supposed to be "expansion only" content, what stop someone from making a mod that enables/re-implements it in vanilla game?

2) The mod. When? I want to try it. Now.

[FuryoftheStars]

1) Since quality is supposed to be "expansion only" content, what stop someone from making a mod that enables/re-implements it in vanilla game?

Likely the mechanic of "insert quality module into assembler to activate recipe randomness" is locked behind requiring the expansion to be enabled.

2) The mod. When? I want to try it. Now.

Roughly another year+ as of FFF373.

[ashnixi]

What I really do not like about this feature is that it is completely dependent on UI (overly) information. Apparently you cannot identify the quality of an item in the game world on a belt without these UI elements (dots).
I find this extremely unimmersive.

Now you aren't observing how fancy items are moving through your factory on belts but you focus on moving dots that actually aren't in the game world. At this point you could even remove all the sprites and replace them with symbols.
I know it's difficult to add extra sprites but when this is too much effort I'd rather rethink the whole quality mod from scratch.

[orzelek]

What I really do not like about this feature is that it is completely dependent on UI (overly) information. Apparently you cannot identify the quality of an item in the game world on a belt without these UI elements (dots).
I find this extremely unimmersive.

Now you aren't observing how fancy items are moving through your factory on belts but you focus on moving dots that actually aren't in the game world. At this point you could even remove all the sprites and replace them with symbols.
I know it's difficult to add extra sprites but when this is too much effort I'd rather rethink the whole quality mod from scratch.

I would recommend reading the FFF again and watching videos in it.
I'm not sure what you mean that there are no dots in game world - they are on items on belts and in invetory (no stacking with various quality might get annoying).

If you mean updated graphics (like shinier plates etc) that would be a lot of work. Using dots is the simplier solution that is consistent between various types of items.

[FuryoftheStars]

What I really do not like about this feature is that it is completely dependent on UI (overly) information. Apparently you cannot identify the quality of an item in the game world on a belt without these UI elements (dots).
I find this extremely unimmersive.

Now you aren't observing how fancy items are moving through your factory on belts but you focus on moving dots that actually aren't in the game world. At this point you could even remove all the sprites and replace them with symbols.
I know it's difficult to add extra sprites but when this is too much effort I'd rather rethink the whole quality mod from scratch.

I would recommend reading the FFF again and watching videos in it.
I'm not sure what you mean that there are no dots in game world - they are on items on belts and in invetory (no stacking with various quality might get annoying).

I believe they meant with Alt mode off there's no way to tell the difference.

[mmmPI]

What I really do not like about this feature is that it is completely dependent on UI (overly) information. Apparently you cannot identify the quality of an item in the game world on a belt without these UI elements (dots).
I find this extremely unimmersive.

Now you aren't observing how fancy items are moving through your factory on belts but you focus on moving dots that actually aren't in the game world. At this point you could even remove all the sprites and replace them with symbols.
I know it's difficult to add extra sprites but when this is too much effort I'd rather rethink the whole quality mod from scratch.

I would recommend reading the FFF again and watching videos in it.
I'm not sure what you mean that there are no dots in game world - they are on items on belts and in invetory (no stacking with various quality might get annoying).

I believe they meant with Alt mode off there's no way to tell the difference.

That's how i understood the dependance on UI too.

On the one hand i can understand how it's "unimersive", that's the negative aspect of the trade off that you don't have suddenly *5 more icons of things that are supposed to be different, but also the same, and being immediatly recognizable as the better quality level 3 of said item and not level 2.

Imagine you have Coal charcoal, coal-coke, rough-coal-coke, crushed-coal and crushed coke in your game. You can have different sprites, that's different item with different fuel density, or too-many-mods. The good part of the quality as dot is you don't have to recognize all the previously mentionned item by a very similar yet different sprite that would inevitably cause mistakes , the abstraction choosen by the feature is dots that tells immediatly what is of higher quality. Although maybe not as thrilling as seeing a more satisfying looking iron plate, gear, assemblies to show the higher quality.

From a development standpoint i agree with the 2nd sentece from orzelek and think it makes sense to not put lots of nice sprites (time-cost) in a feature that is "advanced" "optionnal" "mid-late game"(niche). Because you do not want to hide them away from casual players. As it seem to me that mods attempting to introduce quality were more "advanced" or adding complexity than "cheaty" or giving shortcuts.

[Jan11]

I really like all the changes. read now all the new FF and awesome.

[Hares]

Uranium Processing Math

I made some rough calculations on Uranium Processing with loopback & max-tier prod-3 modules.

So, let's make it clear:

1. Prod-3 modules of tier-5 quality have +25% productivity bonus
2. Assemblers accept 4 of them for a +100% productivity, and centrifuges accept 2 for +50%
3. We are consuming ALL nuclear fuel cells we are producing and have ALL required tech already researched
4. We do not take into account the 0.7% chance of getting U-235 during the basic Uranium Processing recipe

The production chain for the nuclear fuel cells is as follows:

1. Centrifuges convert 10x Uranium Ore into 1x unit of U-238, with a +50% bonus
2. Then the Kovarex enrichment lets us convert 40 units of U-235 and 5 units of U-238 to 41x and 2x respectively. If we exclude the loopback items, we are transforming 3x U-238 into 1x U-235. With +50% productivity it transforms to 3x -> 1.5x, or 2x U-238 -> 1x U-235
3. Uranium Fuel Cells require 1 unit of enriched U-235 and 19 units of depleted U-238 for 10 barrels of green goo. Unlike other recipes in the chain, this is done in the Assembling Machine which can have a +100% productivity bonus, resulting in 20x UFC per iteration. And since each unit of U-235 equals two units of U-238, we can say that for every 21x units of U-238, we get 20x Uranium Fuel Cells
4. Each fuel cell is consumed by a Nuclear Reactor to produce 8GJ of energy, plus any neighbourhood bonus, and one Used-up Uranium Fuel Cell
5. Then, we can extract non-fissioned Uranium from the used-up cells. From 5x UUFC we can extract 3 units of U-238, or 12 units from 20 cells. With a +50% bonus, this number is increased to 18 units of U-238 per cycle
6. Overall, per loopback cycle we consume 21 units of U-238 and get 18 of them back (or 3 units of U-238 per energy from 20 fuel cells), extracting 160GJ of energy in the process (without accounting for the neighbourhood bonus!)

Conclusion
So, with quality-5 tier-3 prod modules in all machines in the chain, only 20 units of Uranium Ore are required to power > 2.5 GW-base for more than a minute. If you have multiple reactors nearby, this number is increased at least 3x times!

Update #1
Added blueprint (uses Editor Extensions mod)

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Copy blueprint

[Tertius]

I made some rough calculations on Uranium Processing with loopback & max-tier prod-3 modules.

Don't get me wrong, but uranium is probably the least probable reason for inventing the Quality mechanics. With vanilla game version 1.1, uranium supply is already secured beyond doubt. A small uranium ore train here and there, and your megabase has supply for days. If you consume one train per day or one train per week doesn't really matter, does it? It's a bit sad we're unable to create a perpetuum mobile with Quality mods that supplies itself, but that's ok and not an issue.

Please repeat your calculations with iron and copper ore over multiple production levels (ore→plate→circuit→machine part→final entity). This is required in huge amounts. To get this down a bit, so you don't need to explore new mines every day and have 100 working mines to keep up the supply, this mechanics is provided.

[mmmPI]

I made some rough calculations on Uranium Processing with loopback & max-tier prod-3 modules.

Don't get me wrong, but uranium is probably the least probable reason for inventing the Quality mechanics. With vanilla game version 1.1, uranium supply is already secured beyond doubt. A small uranium ore train here and there, and your megabase has supply for days. If you consume one train per day or one train per week doesn't really matter, does it? It's a bit sad we're unable to create a perpetuum mobile with Quality mods that supplies itself, but that's ok and not an issue.

Please repeat your calculations with iron and copper ore over multiple production levels (ore→plate→circuit→machine part→final entity). This is required in huge amounts. To get this down a bit, so you don't need to explore new mines every day and have 100 working mines to keep up the supply, this mechanics is provided.

I found the calculations interestings it gives an representation. If you need less power, uranium last longer and thanks to quality on productivity modules you make it last even longer.

To me the strongest interaction between quality and nuclear would have been the possibility to have a quality 5 nuclear reactor. Is it more energy efficient ? or is it just burning the cell faster ? in any case it reduces the footprint of nuclear setup or increase their power density even more which i think is great

It's a bit sad that there seem to be no good place to put some quality module in the energy-uranium loop as it makes thinking about high quality fuel cell very speculative for any real purposes. But if you recover 18 out 21. That may be built up over time from an additionnal facility, if uranium is easily available in larger quantity than needed, it can also be used to densify the energy production area.

I would be interested to know more details about how the quality features apply to mining drill, because i only remember reading that it makes the ressources deplete slower. But i can wait for another 49 weeks 1 days and 12 hours or something to prepare my blueprints

[Hares]

I made some rough calculations on Uranium Processing with loopback & max-tier prod-3 modules.

Don't get me wrong, but uranium is probably the least probable reason for inventing the Quality mechanics. With vanilla game version 1.1, uranium supply is already secured beyond doubt. A small uranium ore train here and there, and your megabase has supply for days. If you consume one train per day or one train per week doesn't really matter, does it? It's a bit sad we're unable to create a perpetuum mobile with Quality mods that supplies itself, but that's ok and not an issue.

Please repeat your calculations with iron and copper ore over multiple production levels (ore→plate→circuit→machine part→final entity). This is required in huge amounts. To get this down a bit, so you don't need to explore new mines every day and have 100 working mines to keep up the supply, this mechanics is provided.

The other calculations are not as interesting, you just get more end product from the same amount of raw resources. Uranium, however, is the only recipe in the vanilla with a loopback -- and since there are multiple stages per cycle, I was curious if the new Prod modules would create a positive loopback. I made calculations. They just barely don't. Basic Prod-3 gives you +10% bonus each. Qual-5 Prod-3 gives you +25%. To create a positive Uranium loopback, you only need a +30% bonus (29.63... to be exact). You can check the calculations on the link below.

Detailed Calculations

How did I get these numbers?

1. Uranium ore is not in the loop, so we'll ignore it.
2. 3 units of U-238 (u) can be converted to 1 unit of U-235 (U), with two modules.
3. 19 units of U-238 and 1 unit of U-235 can be converted to 10 fuel cells (F), with 4 modules
4. 3 units of U-238 can be recovered from 5 used-up fuel cells, with 2 modules
5. Let's assume p as the productivity bonus from one module.

Code: Select all

1.  3u → 1U × (1+2p)
Or: U = 3u / (1+2p)
2.  19u + 1U → 10F × (1+4p)
Or: (19 + 3/(1+2p))u → 10F × (1+4p)
3.  5F  → 3u × (1+2p)
Or: 10F → 6u × (1+2p)

So: (19 + 3/(1+2p))u → 6u × (1+4p) × (1+2p)

To create a positive loopback, the right part should be greater:

Code: Select all

(19 + 3/(1+2p))u < 6u × (1+4p) × (1+2p)
19 + 3/(1+2p) < 6 × (1+4p) × (1+2p)
p > 0.29634213370435890550...

Wolfram Alpha Exact Equation™

List of Edits

Edit #1 (2023-10-06 15:02 UTC)
Adjusted code symbols & text justification

[usafphoenix]

Is there support/potential for underground belts/pipe reach-distance to be improved by quality, or has it already been firmly-decided to keep these entities' quality improvement solely health-based? (sorry if this has already been answered.)

[Kyralessa]

Is there support/potential for underground belts/pipe reach-distance to be improved by quality, or has it already been firmly-decided to keep these entities' quality improvement solely health-based? (sorry if this has already been answered.)

The post said this:

There are a few entities which don't have any bonus apart from the health, which is belts, pipes, rails, chests, combinators, walls, and lamps.

[pejsek]

I really like this new feature. Good way to make the game more interesting without just adding more recipes. I agree that the names of the tiers are not in factorio spirit though. But that's not something that would make it less interesting.

[factoriouzr]

The idea sounds cool and could be a lot of fun to play with. This however introduces some issues with blueprints and construction in general.

A great example is power poles. You say they can connect farther. Now that means that in blueprints you will have issues if you blueprint a legendary or above normal power pole and want to use that blueprint in a new game. All of a sudden your poles can't reach. This is a common thing to do. As you grow and get to the mid/end game, you refine your blueprints and you want to update them to the latest version. Many of these blueprints would be usable in a new game as everything would be unlocked and available early. However with this tier system, it will make the issues worse. You now have 5 tiers of two different power poles each, you now have 5 tiers of 3 different levels of assembly belts. That's 25 total tiers just from power poles and assemblers. Note even counting sub stations and all the other entities.

Imagine you are end game. You have a blueprint that makes some simple early game item. It uses nothing advanced. Everything it uses is available from the early game. Then you realize you can improve the design, or just feel like re-arranging some power poles. You do this, and now you naturally just update the blueprint you already had for this in your library with the current one. Now you go into a new game and place down this blueprint and realize your power poles don't reach, and your assemblers won't be build by robots because they were blueprinted with a legendary tier 5 assembler even though the building is a tier 2 assembler you already have.

This was already an annoying issue in the base game with tiers of belts, splitters, underground belts, assembly machines etc. Now you just made those problems exponentially worse as they apply to all entities and there are 5 quality levels for each entity instead of just 2, or 3 for belts etc.

I want to play with this quality stuff as it's fun, but if you don't address the blueprint stuff properly and elegantly and make it easy for users, this will be a big issue with the expansion.

[EustaceCS]

The excitement of getting directly a rare power armor from common ingredients when you are super lucky is the same as getting BAR-BAR-BAR in the slot machine, or the wanted item in the pay-to-win lootbox mechanics.

This, and overall a reason to explore for materials, will sell me this DLC just fine.
And Recycler, ooooooh!
I mean, the world map in classic Factorio is colossal. But since overall storage is finite, the player will have to give up on exploring eventually simply because they have enough of everything. Too much even.
I wonder how well it would go for Legendary fuel manufacturing. Since Oil is technically infinite, and good enough fuel can be made with Oil only, and even if Recycler won't accept fuel we can just burn it anyway, what will be the optimal approach for...
*connection with player brain lost: lost in thoughts*
Upd.
Hooooold up.
So the quality feature do NOT interact with liquids, right?
Since

Every Item, Entity, and Equipment has 5 possible qualities now

and liquid, obviously, is neither of these.
Liquid components don't affect +/- Quality odds at all, right? How does this system interact with quality system anyway? Recycler spilling out multiple liquids - how does it even supposed to work?!
(will, in the end, I be able to make Legendary Barrel of Legendary Lube or not?)

[Axs1]

I have a question, how have they carried out the calculations to obtain that the cost of creating a legendary item is 56 times more or 116 according to a correction they made.

I have tried to do the calculations and it doesn't get me anywhere close to those numbers.

These are my values obtained (Quality modules - Legendary):

Q 2 ------- Q 3 -------- Q 4 --------- Q 5
1.50 ------ 5.45 ------- 19.66 ------ 70.77
1.74 ------ 6.09 ------- 21.70 ------ 77.87
1.74 ------ 5.85 ------- 20.61 ------ 73.68
3.48 ------ 11.00 ------ 34.42 ------ 106.51
3.48 ------ 10.37 ------ 30.59 ------ 89.09 -------------------- (I think these are the closest)


Note: I used google translate, If something is not clear, let me know.