Increase non-stack inserter capacity from 3 to 4 because of stacking

[CyberCider]

TL;DR

Increase max inserter hand size from 3 to 4, to match with belt stacks.

What ?

Currently, research can increase the hand size of non-stack inserters up to 3.

For 2.0, with the arrival of stacking, I think this should be increased to 4.

Why ?

Because a single stack is 4 items, not 3. If this change was made, long handed and fast inserters could be comfortably used on stacked belts without disrupting the stacks. It's a very small change, the increase is only by 1 item, and I think it would make builds neater.

[FuryoftheStars]

I don't see how this is a problem?

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

[CyberCider]

I don't see how this is a problem?

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

I never said it was a problem, per se. I just think it would look quite ugly. I would prefer my perfectly stacked belts to remain perfectly stacked, if it can be helped. I, unlike you it seems, do not like it when little things are slightly misalligned for no good reason. The adjustment is small enough to justify a “why not” approach, in my opinion. I don’t believe this would disrupt the balance of the game in any meaningful way, or remove any particular challenge. But it would make some things work just a little more smoothly and neatly, would it not?

[FuryoftheStars]

I don't see how this is a problem?

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

I never said it was a problem, per se. I just think it would look quite ugly. I would prefer my perfectly stacked belts to remain perfectly stacked, if it can be helped. I, unlike you it seems, do not like it when little things are slightly misalligned for no good reason. The adjustment is small enough to justify a “why not” approach, in my opinion. I don’t believe this would disrupt the balance of the game in any meaningful way, or remove any particular challenge. But it would make some things work just a little more smoothly and neatly, would it not?

Such a change would affect balance, not just cosmetics. Regular inserters would be able to load things 33% faster, now only being 3x slower instead of 4x compared to stack (soon to be called bulk) inserters. Additionally, this will allow the regular inserters to swing less often/fewer times, thus consuming less power.

That said, cosmetically speaking, Factorio has several "non-perfect" elements to it aside from this (especially the art style) and I actually love this game for that. If everything in this game was all pristine and perfect, it'd feel too sterile to me and I probably wouldn't have as much of a draw to play it.

[CyberCider]

I don't see how this is a problem?

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

I never said it was a problem, per se. I just think it would look quite ugly. I would prefer my perfectly stacked belts to remain perfectly stacked, if it can be helped. I, unlike you it seems, do not like it when little things are slightly misalligned for no good reason. The adjustment is small enough to justify a “why not” approach, in my opinion. I don’t believe this would disrupt the balance of the game in any meaningful way, or remove any particular challenge. But it would make some things work just a little more smoothly and neatly, would it not?

Such a change would affect balance, not just cosmetics. Regular inserters would be able to load things 33% faster, now only being 3x slower instead of 4x compared to stack (soon to be called bulk) inserters. Additionally, this will allow the regular inserters to swing less often/fewer times, thus consuming less power.

That said, cosmetically speaking, Factorio has several "non-perfect" elements to it aside from this (especially the art style) and I actually love this game for that. If everything in this game was all pristine and perfect, it'd feel too sterile to me and I probably wouldn't have as much of a draw to play it.

Of course I took all of these things into account before posting. The math is quite simple. But, you say “only” 3 times slower compared to 4 times slower, as if that’s significant at all. It’s certainly not enough to cross any important throughput thresholds, besides of course the very minor one of belt stacks. Fast inserters are still very much a cheap downgrade compared to stack inserters. And the speed tradeoff of long-handed inserters is still intact, they’re limited far more by their swing speed than their hand size. And do keep in mind that this technology would only be available after the player has unlocked the stack inserter, and then moderately progressed into production science. Meaning that fast inserters, just like now, would still be reserved only for players who want to cheap out in some distinctly low-throughput scenarios, in which this minor change is unlikely to affect the number of swings required.

Also, on the topic of neatness, I would like to remind you of this occasion:

They say the small things in life can sometimes bring the most joy

[FuryoftheStars]

Of course I took all of these things into account before posting. The math is quite simple. But, you say “only” 3 times slower compared to 4 times slower, as if that’s significant at all. It’s certainly not enough to cross any important throughput thresholds, besides of course the very minor one of belt stacks. Fast inserters are still very much a cheap downgrade compared to stack inserters. And the speed tradeoff of long-handed inserters is still intact, they’re limited far more by their swing speed than their hand size. And do keep in mind that this technology would only be available after the player has unlocked the stack inserter, and then moderately progressed into production science. Meaning that fast inserters, just like now, would still be reserved only for players who want to cheap out in some distinctly low-throughput scenarios, in which this minor change is unlikely to affect the number of swings required.

I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers, as your play style is obviously different where a potential 25% decrease in energy usage by regular inserters (and by the way, by this term I mean everything that is not a bulk/stack inserter) is not a big deal. You apparently just build the best everywhere you can regardless. Not everyone does, and I daresay it's not a minority. There are many images around these forums and elsewhere of advanced builds that aren't just all green inserters.

Also, on the topic of neatness, I would like to remind you of this occasion:

Big power poles are already "perfect" to rail curves. All they did here was maintain the status quo, so I fail to see the point.

[CyberCider]

Of course I took all of these things into account before posting. The math is quite simple. But, you say “only” 3 times slower compared to 4 times slower, as if that’s significant at all. It’s certainly not enough to cross any important throughput thresholds, besides of course the very minor one of belt stacks. Fast inserters are still very much a cheap downgrade compared to stack inserters. And the speed tradeoff of long-handed inserters is still intact, they’re limited far more by their swing speed than their hand size. And do keep in mind that this technology would only be available after the player has unlocked the stack inserter, and then moderately progressed into production science. Meaning that fast inserters, just like now, would still be reserved only for players who want to cheap out in some distinctly low-throughput scenarios, in which this minor change is unlikely to affect the number of swings required.

I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers, as your play style is obviously different where a potential 25% decrease in energy usage by regular inserters (and by the way, by this term I mean everything that is not a bulk/stack inserter) is not a big deal. You apparently just build the best everywhere you can regardless. Not everyone does, and I daresay it's not a minority. There are many images around these forums and elsewhere of advanced builds that aren't just all green inserters.

I must say, the power draw argument is quite compelling. Power is something I rarely find myself thinking about in this game, but as you say, it could very well be different for others. I can't think of much else to add to this discussion.

[Illiander42]

Of course I took all of these things into account before posting. The math is quite simple. But, you say “only” 3 times slower compared to 4 times slower, as if that’s significant at all. It’s certainly not enough to cross any important throughput thresholds, besides of course the very minor one of belt stacks. Fast inserters are still very much a cheap downgrade compared to stack inserters. And the speed tradeoff of long-handed inserters is still intact, they’re limited far more by their swing speed than their hand size. And do keep in mind that this technology would only be available after the player has unlocked the stack inserter, and then moderately progressed into production science. Meaning that fast inserters, just like now, would still be reserved only for players who want to cheap out in some distinctly low-throughput scenarios, in which this minor change is unlikely to affect the number of swings required.

I'm not going to get into a debate about the numbers, as your play style is obviously different where a potential 25% decrease in energy usage by regular inserters (and by the way, by this term I mean everything that is not a bulk/stack inserter) is not a big deal. You apparently just build the best everywhere you can regardless. Not everyone does, and I daresay it's not a minority. There are many images around these forums and elsewhere of advanced builds that aren't just all green inserters.

I must say, the power draw argument is quite compelling. Power is something I rarely find myself thinking about in this game, but as you say, it could very well be different for others. I can't think of much else to add to this discussion.

There's also the construction cost. When you get to big builds that matters.

[MeduSalem]

I am with OP on this one.

If the max stack on a belt is 4 items, then every inserter should be able to lift that entire stack without problem if you did the corresponding researches.
It is just a mess otherwise where single items remain on the belt all the time. That would really annoy the hell out of me to the point I would never use a regular Inserter anymore but instead use only Bulk/Stack Inserters everywhere. ^^


And it is not like it really affects the balancing all thaaat much because in endgame because there the machines boosted by modules (or quality) craft so fast or output so many items that you need a Bulk/Stack inserter (however the stuff will be called I still have get used to) anyway.

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

Ah come on. That is just pure masochism for the sake of it. xD

[Murklak]

Currently, if a process slows or stops, input belts will backup and be fully packed. If the stacks aren't full, then the belt will not be fully packed. My question is, how will this affect throughput? I don't see it having any significant impact once the process is running again, and if the process doesn't stop running, we won't run into this problem at all.

If somehow it does impact throughput, it makes sense to increase the bonus to +3 in order to maintain the status quo. But I am not yet convinced there is actually any problem.

[Shadowlords]

I think this would be a nice upgrade to round everything off at the end, add it as another research level required after the 4th stack size bonus of belts and after all the other hand size bonuses have been researched, It is purely endgame related, and by that point power consumption/swing speed is less of a concern towards balance that deep into the game. I think it would feel nice as well, would incentivize using the other inserters more instead of just going for green inserters everywhere and just limiting to hand size of 4 to get the most out of the belt stacks

it also feels pretty straightforward to mod into the game, so I could see myself using a mod like that as part of my standard upgraded/modded playthrough.

[MeduSalem]

Currently, if a process slows or stops, input belts will backup and be fully packed. If the stacks aren't full, then the belt will not be fully packed. My question is, how will this affect throughput? I don't see it having any significant impact once the process is running again, and if the process doesn't stop running, we won't run into this problem at all.

It likely won't affect the throughput from the belt if things keep constantly flowing.

However while the first inserters along a belt may get nice stacks of 4 items to pick from, the inserters further down the belt need to wait for items to trickle past them in weird "left-over" stacks that may be all kinds of different sizes. That causes the later inserters to work harder.

It might not be much of an issue, but you will at least notice that oddity visually.

[mcmase]

+1

I had already assumed this was the case. If you're worried about balance, it could be a later-game research to unlock the fourth stackable.

[FuryoftheStars]

And honestly, I like it when not everything is a perfect match/ratio.

Ah come on. That is just pure masochism for the sake of it. xD

Factorio has an imperfect/grunge/cobbled together look and feel to it with its entities. It honestly makes sense and goes right along with that look and feel having other things that are not always perfect, such as the randomly crisscrossing power lines or the idea that stacked belts can have partial stacks on them.

But if you really don't like the looks, you still have options: use either of the stack/bulk inserters instead. They can pick up and swing in multiples of perfect stacks of 4. As such, I feel as though there's no need to change other inserters, either from a technical or looks/consistency standpoint.

Personally, I can't wait to have belts that will trigger you all.

[Illiander42]

There's also the fun of deciding when to re-stack belts.

[MeduSalem]

Personally, I can't wait to have belts that will trigger you all.

I guess some men just want to watch the world burn. ^^

[Illiander42]

Personally, I can't wait to have belts that will trigger you all.

I guess some men just want to watch the world burn. ^^

Truth in reality as well, unfortunately.

[Trific]

Erm, currently, the max "non-stack...er, non-bulk" inserter hand size is 4. The 3 is the bonus granted by the various levels of research, that is added to the base level of 1 hand size to get to four.

So, count this suggestion already implemented.

[Loewchen]

Erm, currently, the max "non-stack...er, non-bulk" inserter hand size is 4. The 3 is the bonus granted by the various levels of research, that is added to the base level of 1 hand size to get to four.

Only bonus #2 and #7 apply to non stack inserters, maxing them out at 3.

[Trific]

Only bonus #2 and #7 apply to non stack inserters, maxing them out at 3.

Oops, well my face is red. That explains some things, I've been thinking all along that non-stack inserters max out at 4.