Friday Facts #414 - Spoils of Agriculture

[mmmPI]

Well.. but the case is that all biological products in our factory will rot evetually, unlike cotton, co why not treat them as food and freeze? Food for the machine god.

I don't think this is correct, wood or fish weren't announced to spoil over time. And although you could freeze fish ( animal product & food) it make no sense to me to put some wood in the freezer ^^ ( plant & not food ).

Plus i am not convinced a hidden random freshness is a good idea. To me it serve no other purpose than defeating the purpose of the spoilage mechanic in the first place. I think it is like opening a window to get cool air, while at the some time cranking up the heat, to have hot air. Introducing the whole mechanic just for people to instead use freezer like they could use current mod that put item in box seem very counterproductive, there will already be the "stacking on belt" mechanic that serve this purpose.

[Cyclonut]

Love the Gleba resource management. With respect to Spoilage, you have three methods, but the most real life practical one used in farming, composting it, was not mentioned/realized. Maybe you can convert it into compost, which then can be used as a heat source in cold greenhouses, or a land fill to increase productivity.

[FuryoftheStars]

With respect to Spoilage, you have three methods, but the most real life practical one used in farming, composting it, was not mentioned/realized.

I think the 3rd method, "create nutrients", is the game's abstraction of just that.

[mmmPI]

you have three methods, but the most real life practical one used in farming, composting it, was not mentioned/realized. Maybe you can convert it into compost, which then can be used as a heat source in cold greenhouses, or a land fill to increase productivity.

The FFF i think mention the different (in game) methods :

That's why spoilage exists, and we have multiple methods to get rid of it - you can burn it, waste it in a recycler, or create nutrients that are already half-spoilt.

The nutrient part is similar to using compost as land fill to increase producivity, it's not landfill to cover water, more like fertilizer.

illustrating for me how rotten spoiled and stinky mess can turn into fertile compost

The heat souce is more questionnable i suppose, because compost is not "burnt" to extract "heat" for cold greenhouses, but from gameplay logic, it make sense that "burning" is a mechanism that gets rid of it and provide "heat".


Edit : Fury was faster ... ^^

[gGeorg]

Lets introduce the fridge wagon !

If a fridge wagon contains any item inside, then wagon turn on cooling.

Wagon which turned cooling on, is supported by locomotive - it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.
Items in the fridge wagon, which is cool (consumes energy) decay by 1/10 speed.
Items in the fridge wagons, which has no power, decay as usual.
Empty fridge wagon consumes 0 kW
fridge wagon with 1 or more items, consumes 300kW. Fridge dont recognize type of items, if any item is in, it turns cooling on.

[Maddhawk]

Lets introduce the fridge wagon !

If a fridge wagon contains any item inside, then wagon turn on cooling.

Wagon which turned cooling on, is supported by locomotive - it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.
Items in the fridge wagon, which is cool (consumes energy) decay by 1/10 speed.
Items in the fridge wagons, which has no power, decay as usual.
Empty fridge wagon consumes 0 kW
fridge wagon with 1 or more items, consumes 300kW. Fridge dont recognize type of items, if any item is in, it turns cooling on.

+1 I like the concept. Might also add refrigerated chests as well. If a spoilable item is contained within, then the chest will become a "refrigerated chest" and need to be powered like anything else. Make the swap from chest/logistics chest to "refrigerated chest/refrigerated logistics chest" be automatic. Or can make them a special craft.

If going the special craft, recipe might be:
Basic Chest mats +
1 electric motor (runs compressor/pump combo)
2 pipes (coolant runs)
2 copper plates (radiator)
1 green chip (basic controls)

[Koub]

[...] it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.

I don't want to sound too pedantic (a little pedantic is OK though), but the watt is already a "per second" unit : it's joules per second. W/s makes little sense.

[GregoriusT]

[...] it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.

I don't want to sound too pedantic (a little pedantic is OK though), but the watt is already a "per second" unit : it's joules per second. W/s makes little sense.

Watt per Second is the rate at which the Factory power consumption grows. XD

[bobucles]

[...] it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.

I don't want to sound too pedantic (a little pedantic is OK though), but the watt is already a "per second" unit : it's joules per second. W/s makes little sense.

Watt per Second is the rate at which the Factory power consumption grows. XD

the factory grows exponentially, so it'd be watt per second per second

[GregoriusT]

[...] it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.

I don't want to sound too pedantic (a little pedantic is OK though), but the watt is already a "per second" unit : it's joules per second. W/s makes little sense.

Watt per Second is the rate at which the Factory power consumption grows. XD

the factory grows exponentially, so it'd be watt per second per second

Joules per second-cubed!

[gGeorg]

[...] it consumes additional 300kW/s. Speed of train regardless. Consumption 300kW is per wagon, which means a train :1 loco plus 3 fridge wagons standing on red lights is consuming 900kW per second.

I don't want to sound too pedantic (a little pedantic is OK though), but the watt is already a "per second" unit : it's joules per second. W/s makes little sense.

right.
I focused to introduce THE idea, use simple language and make it working. In the example above, I wanted highlight the fact that train which wait for few seconds at crossroad consumes power each second while his speed is zero. it is totally new concept. it can lead to a situation that traffic jam makes your train consume all fuel, so they need player interaction to unstuck. Units slipped away.

Well, the main question is, do you like fridge wagon idea, is it playful ?

[gGeorg]

Lets introduce the fridge wagon !

If a fridge wagon contains any item inside, then wagon turn on cooling.

+1 I like the concept. Might also add refrigerated chests as well. Make the swap from chest/logistics chest to "refrigerated chest/refrigerated logistics chest" be automatic. Or can make them a special craft.

Make a one tile fridge (one new item which consumes electricity) which can be placed next to any container to upgrade him to cooled.

[mmmPI]

It is a new concept that was discussed a lot in this thread already , and i think there is already a good list of arguments explaining the "bad" sides of the ideas :

- The Dev Intended Gameplay requires no buffers whatsoever, and people are supposed to change up their Game on each Planet.

- Suddenly there is two types of Chests, two types of Cargo Wagons, two types of Cars, two types of everything that acts like a Buffer. This is quite ugly design, which is why the Quality System was invented in the first place, do you basically want High Quality Chests/Wagons to be better Freezers then?

- The only way Space Platforms store Items is through their central Storage, which is just one giant NORMAL Chest. Should a Freezer mechanic exist, those Space Platforms will be inadvertently nerfed to hell or be guaranteed to have Freezer properties, which does not make sense.

- You would end up being incentivized to just spam Freezers everywhere, and if there is Freezers everywhere, then its the same Gameplay as having regular Chests everywhere, which in turn means you cant use Belts anymore because Belts are not optimal, which is what the Devs want to avoid with this mechanic.

- There is no reason to transport Spoilers from anywhere on Gleba to anywhere else on Gleba at long distance, the only Spoilers you will need to transport are the Bio Science Packs, which likely have the whole 2 hour timer on them, and that is plenty for transport.

- Freezers also give some extra complex Maths to worry about, since now there is TWO things that can influence Spoiler Products, one is Quality and another is how long it was in a Freezer. It is far easier on the mind to only have to worry about ONE factor instead of two. Juggling around too many numbers games at once makes the game seem unclean and convoluted, and also harder to balance for people who just randomly decide to not use Freezers.

- Freezers in general and their effect would seem almost mandatory for everything Spoilerable, impacting gameplay to the point of absolutely destroying the "no buffers" challenge aspect the Devs intended.

Personnally i don't see much benefit in the proposition that would outweight all the negative points. ( the possibility for traffic jam to form up to the point where player manual intervention is required is not fun for me it's only an additionnal negative side).

[gGeorg]

It is a new concept that was discussed a lot in this thread already , and i think there is already a good list of arguments explaining the "bad" sides of the ideas :


Personnally i don't see much benefit in the proposition that would outweight all the negative points. ( the possibility for traffic jam to form up to the point where player manual intervention is required is not fun for me it's only an additionnal negative side).

my freeezer is 1/10 slower decay, which mens, buffer do not work very well. In certain time it decay anyway.
my frezer is wagon, it is ment to allow bigger bases. I am not sure how megase can produce while not spoiling. Traffic delay matters.
argumets of type "freezers forced everywhere" is not the case. Althou you might make a static train and feed loco while standing, it is quite big structure to use it everywhere.

[mmmPI]

Maybe it will make an interesting mod ^^

[Maddhawk]

Lets introduce the fridge wagon !

If a fridge wagon contains any item inside, then wagon turn on cooling.

+1 I like the concept. Might also add refrigerated chests as well. Make the swap from chest/logistics chest to "refrigerated chest/refrigerated logistics chest" be automatic. Or can make them a special craft.

Make a one tile fridge (one new item which consumes electricity) which can be placed next to any container to upgrade him to cooled.

Don't think there are any items like that in the game. Also not a fan of that approach. One mode I like to use is Merging Chests. Lets me put down a bunch of Steel Chests and merge them to make giant chests. Combine that with Mini-loaders and you can build some nice buffers and storage arrays.

With the idea of side fridge, I'm not sure how that would work out with the mod. The idea of separate fridge chests still sounds better to me. We are, after all, getting lots of new recipes as is. Refrigeration chests wouldn't really make things any more complicated.

[Koub]

Well, the main question is, do you like fridge wagon idea, is it playful ?

Personally, even though I'm not thrilled by the idea of spoilage in the first place, I have learned that the devs know better than I do. Almost (*) every time I disagreed on what the devs had decided for Factorio, I ended up admitting that the result was good, and the decision was right.

So despite my initial reluctance, I'd rather test what the devs have imagined before trying to "do better". As an analogy, when I was a kid, my mom taught me to taste it before adding salt when I'm served a plate. Same thing here : I'll first taste the vanilla experience, as designed by the devs. If I dislike the experience, then try to imagine a better alternative.

Now to the point, answering your question : Before assessing if your solution would be better than what we've been presented, I'd rather get a feel of the vanilla experience as designed by the devs.

(*) For those very curious the only persistant gripe I have with the devs' design choices dates back 0.17.60 and the infamous simplified basic oil processing, which I was favourable to, but pushed the construction robots further into the tech tree (need to unlock and automate blue science, advanced poil processing, ...), while beforehand, construction robots could be deployed earlier in the tech tree (lube was green science, so were construction robots, only roboports were blue science, but not much automation was needed, could be done before advanced oil processing). I dread every additional second I have to wait for construction robots. Totally off topic though, so please don't branch the discussion on this anecdote.

[FuryoftheStars]

my frezer is wagon, it is ment to allow bigger bases. I am not sure how megase can produce while not spoiling. Traffic delay matters.
argumets of type "freezers forced everywhere" is not the case. Althou you might make a static train and feed loco while standing, it is quite big structure to use it everywhere.

I'm not against the idea of refrigeration/freezer, though mind I think the idea the devs had is for us to not just build one huge central location for this farming and processing, but rather build many smaller ones. Some may not see their fruit go towards certain products, while others could be used exclusively for those.

[adam_bise]

I wouldn't mind seeing bio weaponry in the form of a flamethrower-like turret that runs on fluids created by intentionally spoiled organics.

[mmmPI]

It wouldn't be called a shotgun , more like a sh*tgun ?